Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Nexii]

Wait are you sure?  I'm seeing that with drone flag 8 on that the first drone can never be a superdrone, and B-drones don't become phantom drones.  I went up to 60 bases as a test and a size 3 base could be controlled by a single police unit at +3 POLICE.  On Transcend, normal sized map, you're saying that should be an additional 10 drones (60 bases / 6 as EFFIC 0 cap)?

Well it was a sample base but yes, with 0/6/6 borehole you want as many as possible.  25% boreholes might even be conservative but a better player than me could say.  I have been trying out 0/0/9 which admittedly is also very powerful. 

Yea I meant 9 pop control with Ascetic Virtues or Brood Pit, the former is a lot earlier of course.  Wasn't aware that SAC counted against the 3 limit, that's interesting to know.  Also it seems to count as a free non-police unit.

If PS is at -2 GROWTH though a Creche would only put you back to 12 turn per pop or so.  You'd be at around 15 turns per pop without a Creche.  Putting tanks to -1N actually slows down the early game a fair amount, since you're capped at 2N per farm anyways.  Granted with a better tech curve, 0/0/3 tanks might be a bit fast early.  But I find them pretty good as they are.

I guess my caution is that the game shouldn't be slowed down too much.  There's only 400 turns on Transcend.  So early game = 100, mid game = 100, late game = 100.  Allow 100 more for an especially aggressive game.  Early I would say up to Hab Complex, Mid is up from Hab Complex to Hab Domes, and Late is post-Hab Domes.  A lot of bug/exploit fixes do make the game slower.  So I guess either facility & SP costs can be reduced, or the overall tech curve could be a little faster.

[Yitzi]

Wait are you sure?  I'm seeing that with drone flag 8 on that the first drone can never be a superdrone

Really?  What does the Psych window show?  From what I saw, it seemed that the first drone was becoming a superdrone, but then being quashed by police.

and B-drones don't become phantom drones.

Phantom drones are invisible, hence the name.

I went up to 60 bases as a test and a size 3 base could be controlled by a single police unit at +3 POLICE.  On Transcend, normal sized map, you're saying that should be an additional 10 drones (60 bases / 6 as EFFIC 0 cap)?

Yes, there should be...do you have a savegame of this, so I can check?

Well it was a sample base but yes, with 0/6/6 borehole you want as many as possible.  25% boreholes might even be conservative but a better player than me could say.  I have been trying out 0/0/9 which admittedly is also very powerful.

On the other hand, getting that many boreholes is fairly expensive, and until later in the game (especially if you mod Planetary Economics to a bit later on) there's the ecodamage as well...and later in the game, the fact that you lose out on not only farm/solar or farm/mine but also enrichers makes it less appealing.

Although now that I think of it, 6 nutrients late-game is still a lot, especially when combined with transcendi.  Yes, it's the same as condensers unmodded, but that's also extremely high.  (The "enabling condenser+solars" idea is designed to work with 0-nutrient condensers.)

Wasn't aware that SAC counted against the 3 limit, that's interesting to know.  Also it seems to count as a free non-police unit.

Indeed; I actually fixed a bug where it would even displace police units.

If PS is at -2 GROWTH though a Creche would only put you back to 12 turn per pop or so.

True, if you run PS.

You'd be at around 15 turns per pop without a Creche.  Putting tanks to -1N actually slows down the early game a fair amount, since you're capped at 2N per farm anyways.  Granted with a better tech curve, 0/0/3 tanks might be a bit fast early.  But I find them pretty good as they are.

Actually, a better tech curve would probably be around the same (maybe somewhat more difficulty-dependent) early, and be slowed down more later.

I guess my caution is that the game shouldn't be slowed down too much.  There's only 400 turns on Transcend.  So early game = 100, mid game = 100, late game = 100.  Allow 100 more for an especially aggressive game.  Early I would say up to Hab Complex, Mid is up from Hab Complex to Hab Domes, and Late is post-Hab Domes.  A lot of bug/exploit fixes do make the game slower.  So I guess either facility & SP costs can be reduced, or the overall tech curve could be a little faster.

Fortunately, all those things (number of turns, costs, and overall tech speed) are moddable.

[Nexii]

Here's a sample save.  Using drones rule 31.  Psych Window shows 0 for "Morgan Industries" base

Yea agree 6N is high, but I play with raising off so really it's trading off 2N for ~2-2.5E.  Farm+solar needs to exceed forests for FOP due to the higher former times.  The other thing is that until Hab Domes all that N is wasted if you go full farm/solar.  A mix should be best I think

[Yitzi]

Here's a sample save.  Using drones rule 31.  Psych Window shows 0 for "Morgan Industries" base

Ok, I'll take a look.

Yea agree 6N is high, but I play with raising off so really it's trading off 2N for ~2-2.5E.

With satellites and transcendi, that's a ridiculously overpowered trade.

The other thing is that until Hab Domes all that N is wasted if you go full farm/solar.  A mix should be best I think

True before hab domes, but afterward it becomes an issue.  Which is why it may be best to lower the tech needed for enrichers; that comes out similarly to +2 N/farm in much of the midgame (particularly the part where it's needed), but constitutes no increase in the endgame.  It also helps avoid having a nutrient boost (from enrichers) and nutrient value boost (from thinkers and engineers) come so close to each other.

[Yitzi]

Looks like I misremembered; bureaucracy drones are in fact capped at base size.  Which means that ICS+police is viable in terms of drone control, although the lack of multiplier facilities will hurt a lot if you don't go heavily militaristic.

[Nexii]

Since everyone likes to mod around SE settings, this is my most recent set.  I think it's playing out fairly well.

Anarchy,         None,    -GROWTH
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Traditional,     None,    -EFFIC
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, +++INDUSTRY,--EFFIC,---ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,--INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    -MORALE
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC
Knowledge,       Cyber,   +++RESEARCH,--PROBE,--SUPPORT
Wealth,          IndAuto, +ECONOMY,++GROWTH,---MORALE
Primitive,       None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,++TALENT,-INDUSTRY,-MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,++INDUSTRY,-SUPPORT,-EFFIC

Some notes
- Overall this set is a little less harsh despite staying balanced, as Demo got +TALENT and Eudaimonic got +2 TALENT
- Going PS early game was giving -3 GROWTH.  So I put -GROWTH on Politics tier instead thus boosting PS also
- Power got a boost, it's no longer super crippling to run and more enticing to get.  Encourages some more aggression in the mid game.
- Knowledge weakened a little; it's still good as the middle ground between Power/Wealth
- Green penalties lessened, it was weak early game
- Planned...hard to say here.  It's now the most 'extreme' SE to take sort of what the old Free Market was like. The 2 IND / 2 GROW version was too good all around, I'll have to test out this version.
- Survival getting -MORALE sort of doesn't make sense?

[Nexii]

Been awhile since I've played and modded.  Lately I'm trying out this.  I figured since overall the 'balanced' SEs are more punishing I gave +TALENT more around the board.

Frontier,        None,    None
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ECONOMY,---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, +++INDUSTRY,--EFFIC,---ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,+TALENT,--INDUSTRY,-SUPPORT
Survival,        None,    None
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC
Knowledge,       Cyber,   +++RESEARCH,--PROBE,-SUPPORT
Wealth,          IndAuto, +TALENT,++GROWTH,---MORALE
None,            None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,++TALENT,-MORALE,-INDUSTRY
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,++INDUSTRY,-SUPPORT,-EFFIC

[Nexii]

Simplifying/tweaking a little more.  I wanted all the SEs to have at most 4 +/-

Frontier,        None,    None
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ECONOMY,---PLANET,-SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, +++INDUSTRY,--EFFIC,---ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,+TALENT,---INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    None
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC
Knowledge,       Cyber,   +++RESEARCH,--PROBE,-SUPPORT
Wealth,          IndAuto, +TALENT,++GROWTH,--MORALE
None,            None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,+TALENT,--MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,++INDUSTRY,-SUPPORT,-EFFIC

So I'm not sure if I really reached the end goal of more variety or not.  I think that war and builder SEs tend to go together.  But each tier sort of has a 'middle' ground SE now.  Police State, Knowledge, Cybernetic.  Economics tier is a bit different since Green is more to stabilize alien life, and the other two have minerals and energy focuses.  I mod with higher ecodamage, no flooding, no planetpearls, 2:1 psi combats.  So native life can be quite problematic and not desirable.  At +3 PLANET there is 0 ecodamage however.  So this means if you run Green you don't 'need' to run the ecodamage facilities.

[vonbach]

Democracy is still overpowered and Fund is still underpowered. Another penalty other than Research would be in order.
Planned is OP. Green is UP.

[Nexii]

I don't know that I'd say Fundamentalism is underpowered.  Early game Planned kills research even worse, and it's worth running Fund in war.  The strategy is to run 50% ECON / 50% PSY and mostly ignore labs facilities.  Steal tech and conquer for it.

I'd say that Planned gets to be strong only after you hit Boreholes.  Before then FM is faster since you need early techs more than early infrastructure.  Also Planned will outproduce your pop growth early game.  Green probably is UP early but with ecodamage modded to be relevant PLANET becomes really important.  Replacing formers/re-terraforming is also very expensive.  Having a base sacked by swarms is even worse.

So to keep the set balanced where would you put -RESEARCH other than Fund?  And what's a thematic penalty for Fund?

[vonbach]

Effic or better yet Economy is a good penalty. Fundamentalists aren't interested in money generally or
effic. Honestly the real issue with all the bonuses and penalties is some of them are too strong in either direction.
I suppose it depends on what you want Fund to be used for. I always liked it as a hybrid between Police and Democracy.
Like Growth and morale for Fund. Or better yet making Fund the stability option for Governments +2 morale +1 Talent -Support or effic.

[Nexii]

The set's intended that you can max out any category (or hit minimum).  Yes it is extreme on some levels..the economic tier might have a bit much impact.

Depends on your take on Fundamentalism.  Not sure they'd be anti-money, tithing was a thing for the church.  I see that more as a benefit (citizens give EC back to the state willingly) than a cost.

But it can be argued that PS > Fund > Democracy in terms of aggression.  Historically police states (despots) have been the most warmongering.  If you wanted that perhaps shift all 3 over?  Democracy could be very resistant to probing...they were immune to subversion in Civ2.  I find these sort of mixed SEs interesting...but also much harder to pick from.

Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,++SUPPORT,--GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,+++PROBE,+TALENT,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++GROWTH,-----RESEARCH

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Really I always felt +ECON was a screwy SE with its odd breakpoints.  Something like +/- to total Energy production might have been more interesting than hard square modifiers.  But as Yitzi said this isn't easy to modify...so it's best to make due.

Hi Nexii.
I agree with you that Economy is the least smooth progressing effect. Others may have surges at the extreme points like +3 Police which is fine and in line with general SE selection paradigm. I.e. you are free to push one effect to extreme to get super benefits if you like but lock yourself to specific SE combination and suffer from other negative effects. Whereas Economy gives you its biggest boost at +1=>+2 transition while the extreme one +4=>+5 is quite weak in comparison.

You may find my effect weight comparison analysis interesting. There I am trying to calculate relative weight of different effect by comparing their net effect on your empire and by trying to substitute them one for another.
http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Social_Engineering_Mod

Interestingly enough, there I also introduce an artificial/fictitious Energy effect that simply increase energy production 10% for each step on a scale. Such effect doesn't exist but it proved to be a convenient linear replacement for Economy.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Something like +/- to total Energy production might have been more interesting than hard square modifiers.  But as Yitzi said this isn't easy to modify...so it's best to make due.

It probably could be done if you describe what you want, it's just not such a high priority.

I add my voice to Nexii's one. The "Energy production" effect would be a more linear replacement to Economy. Simple +/-1 on Energy effect scale would change your raw base energy yield to +/- 10%.

[Yitzi]

Really I always felt +ECON was a screwy SE with its odd breakpoints.  Something like +/- to total Energy production might have been more interesting than hard square modifiers.  But as Yitzi said this isn't easy to modify...so it's best to make due.

Hi Nexii.
I agree with you that Economy is the least smooth progressing effect. Others may have surges at the extreme points like +3 Police which is fine and in line with general SE selection paradigm. I.e. you are free to push one effect to extreme to get super benefits if you like but lock yourself to specific SE combination and suffer from other negative effects. Whereas Economy gives you its biggest boost at +1=>+2 transition while the extreme one +4=>+5 is quite weak in comparison.

Actually, the boosts past +2 are deceptively (potentially) powerful, especially later in the game (when +1 energy/square is not such a big deal, especially once orbital power transmitters come online), because they increase your commerce rating.  Assuming you trade with roughly equal-output bases and can pass the global trade pact, each point of ECONOMY past +2 gives (assuming an unmodded tech tree) a ~3.6% (1/28) boost to energy output per treaty, and ~7.1% (1/14) per pact.  Not a huge boost, but that's per treaty/pact per extra point of ECONOMY, so if you focus on it by getting lots of pacts, it adds up to quite a significant boost.

On top of that, COMMERCE rating heavily affects the cost of an economic victory; IIRC, late in the game a +5 ECONOMY rating results in roughly half the corner cost of a +2 rating.