Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You are right. I didn't mean to compare different steps on economy scale. I was just pointing out that economy has the most not linear scale amongh other effects.

[Nexii]

Yea agree, economy is incredibly powerful with pacts/global trade pact.  It also means less free energy for pact mates.

I'm trying out this now after a long SMAC break. 

So overall:
Democratic/FM/Planned weakened
Green buffed a little
Knowledge about the same
Future SEs made stronger

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, +EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ECONOMY,---PLANET,--SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,--EFFIC,---ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,++EFFIC,+TALENT,---INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    None
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH,--PROBE
Wealth,          IndAuto, +TALENT,++GROWTH,--MORALE
None,            None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, +++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,++TALENT,--MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,+++INDUSTRY,-SUPPORT,-EFFIC

The economy SEs are kind of extreme.  -3 IND may still leave Green underpowered, even with modded ecodamages and 1/3/0 Forests.  Have to play more and try it out.  I don't feel that Fundamentalism was underpowered even with the huge negative research.  Elite troops are so deadly and underestimated...Spartans/Believers are pretty terrifying with Fundamentalism

[Nexii]

Bunch of small tweaks to my SE set.  Been playing with PLANET SE affecting defense for PSI not just offense.  It made Green much stronger so it needed a bit of a nerf.  Knowledge picked up +1 EFFIC as it was probably a little weak for builder compared to Wealth.  Small boost to Planned at the cost of Power.  Lastly Free Market needed a bit of a boost, so I put more -SUP on Thought Control.

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, +EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ECONOMY,---PLANET,-SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,-EFFIC,---ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,+TALENT,---INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    None
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,--EFFIC
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,--PROBE
Wealth,          IndAuto, +TALENT,++GROWTH,--MORALE
None,            None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, +++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,++TALENT,--MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,+++INDUSTRY,--SUPPORT,-EFFIC

[Quadhelix]

I've been kicking around a couple ideas in the back of my head, and I was hoping to get feedback from more experienced players and modders to see if these ideas have any merit -- although it seems that Nexii and a few others already had similar ideas, tested them, and found they didn't work:

• Move Democratic Politics's +2 Growth to Fundamentalist Politics (replacing either the +1 Morale or the +2 Probe) and find another bonus for Democratic Politics (+1 Research?).
• Move the +2 Probe from Fundamentalist Politics to Police State Politics (replacing the +2 Support).
• Give Planned Economics +2 Support (replacing either the +2 Growth or the +1 Industry).

(click to show/hide)

Idea 1: Move Democratic Politics's +2 Growth to Fundamentalist Politics (replacing either the +1 Morale or the +2 Probe) and find another bonus for Democratic Politics (+1 Research?).

• I tend to under-utilize Fundamentalist Politics because I tend to be builder-oriented (and also play on lower difficulties). Making it necessary for the execution of an SE-focused pop boom would make it more useful for builder-style players.
• There was a discussion earlier in the thread noting that this would give the Hive the ability to pop-boom easily, but there are probably ways to fix that -- e.g., giving the Hive a Penalty:Fundamentalist attribute (explained as "unthinking masses," perhaps), which would mean pop booming through Fundamentalist politics would slow Yang's research to a crawl.
• Another issue with this is that, because of Zahkarov's aversion to Fundamentalist Politics, moving the +2 Growth there makes it much, much harder for him to pop-boom, because he has to use Planned+Creche+GA, which presents a challenge because of his Drone problems. Then again, I've always found the University to be a bit overpowered (although that isn't saying much at the Citizen and Specialist levels where I tend to play), so this sort of debuff might not be too great of a drawback.

Idea 2: Move the +2 Probe from Fundamentalist Politics to Police State Politics (replacing the +2 Support).

• I don't really have a gameplay justification for this -- it's focused entirely on the thematic idea that a Police State is going to have stronger internal security, translating into stronger probes. Going back over the thread, Nexii had the same reasoning.
• The immediate problem here is that the Probe bonus for Fundamentalist Politics was likely added to take some of the sting out of the Research penalty. Then again, if we're adding a Growth bonus to Fundamentalist Politics, that  would probably offset the research penalty by providing more pop (thus more energy, thus more research)
• I see that, when Nexii did something similar, he ended up bumping the Probe bonus to +3 and reducing PS's Efficiency penalty from -2 to -1.

Idea 3: Give Planned Economics +2 Support (replacing either the +2 Growth or the +1 Industry).

• This makes Planned Economics more directly relevant for momentum-style players by allowing them to support more units. The bonus to support still has some relevance to building up a developing faction (e.g., Formers and Colony Pods for days).
• Making Planned Economics's bonuses work out to +2 Support, +1 Industry effectively turns it into a war economy -- not only can you churn out your units faster, but you can support more of them for free. Thus, it synergizes well with Power Values by amplifying its strengths (bonus Support) and offsetting its weakness (weaker Industry).
• Making Planned Economics's bonuses work out to +2 Support, +2 Growth, however, seems closer to a straight-up upgrade. Until a base is producing something like 19-20 minerals, an extra two free units/base is going to provide a larger production boost than making things 10% cheaper (assuming that the base is actually supporting those units).
• On a related note, I see that Nexii tried out moving +2 Growth from Planned Economics to Free Market Economics. I recall reading that he found that doing so ended up making FM too powerful, but I can't find the exact quote.

Like I said, a lot of this is, I think, retreading well-worn ground. I think the main difference is that the final result here is much closer to the original SE choices because I'm making the absolute minimum number of changes to execute my ideas -- moving the Growth bonus from Demo to Fundy forces moving the Probe bonus from Fundy to PS, which forces moving the Support bonus from PS to Planned, which may force moving the Growth bonus from Planned to FM.

[Nexii]

So it'd be
Police State +2 PROBE +2 POLICE -2 EFFIC
Democracy +2 EFFIC, +? -2 SUPPORT
Fundamentalism +2 GROWTH +1 MORALE -2 RESEARCH

Free Market +2 ECON +2 GROWTH -3 PLANET -5 POLICE
Planned +2 SUPPORT +1 INDUSTRY -2 EFFIC
Rest same

The issue I had with default EFFIC penalties is that PS/Planned is never viable (-4 EFFIC).  I suppose one can cut PS to -1 EFFIC if you're going for a less extreme SE set.  What I found was that +2 PROBE isn't that powerful.  +3 PROBE is very useful though (conversion immune), and +3 POLICE is potentially too powerful for Yang if -2 EFFIC remains the downside.  PS would still be okay at +2 POLICE +2 PROBE -1 EFFIC for Spartans, and any faction with Ascetic Virtues.

Democracy would need a little more boost I agree...probably +TALENT or +RESEARCH.  +RESEARCH probably sets it more apart from Fundamentalism.  Contrasting choices tend to be more compelling.  Demo/Planned feels a bit tepid with net +1 INDUSTRY +1 RESEARCH but it's a kind of safe/socialist government so perhaps fitting .  I think Democracy might need +2 RESEARCH even to be compelling to take over Fundamentalism in that set.  +2 GROWTH is really good and it's why in the default SE set you'd almost always take Democracy.

[Nexii]

Pursuant to the other SE thread, trying out this set.  Will see how the AI fares with no downsides.  The upsides are a little tempered.

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,  ++SUPPORT
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +PLANET
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY
None,            None,
AI Controlled,      DigSent, ++PROBE,  ++INDUSTRY, ++POLICE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++RESEARCH, ++ECONOMY, ++EFFIC
Bioengineered,   HomoSup, ++GROWTH, ++MORALE,  ++PLANET

[Nexii]

Didn't change much, other than Knowledge to +++RESEARCH, +PLANET

Overall found it surprisingly balanced with a lot of options.  If you make native life more threatening and nerf advanced terraforming an SE buff is a good way to offset.

Univ and CyCon take a big hit with Fund aversion - CyCon can't boom until very late game.  But arguably they were the #1/#2 factions.
Drones might remain OP or even more being able to get +5 IND early.  Most other factions can get +3 IND with better research though.
Hive goes from one of the best to average...though they can get +3 IND without Democracy
Believers might be a bit weak.  I think their mid and late game is strong, only they can get +3 SUP without the SP.  And they can run Fund/FM/Wealth which should be the strongest boom combo.

[Nexii]

#;AI Controlled
#HELPSOC31
In the far future, citizens may turn many of the tasks of governing
society over to artificially intelligent computers, increasing productivity.
AI-controlled robots perform all industrial and service level tasks,
leaving humans to the realms of science and art.  Advanced AI algorithms
predict crime and civil disobedience, preventing domestic issues before they occur.

--
To me the bonuses applied to Cybernetic never really made sense.  I see the computer/machine future SE more like 'Minority Report' or maybe even dystopia as a contrast to Eudaimonic.  I think full on AI control of everything might not make much sense in the context of SMAC.  Otherwise we'd have machine life ascending and not humans.  As well it would sort of supersede the top tier of Politics.  That being said Fund+AI Controlled might be interesting...would we then worship computers?  And how about PS/Eudaimonic...a strict society with high expectations?

[Nexii]

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,  ++SUPPORT
Knowledge,       Cyber,   +++RESEARCH, +PLANET
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY
None,            None,
AI Controlled,      DigSent, ++PROBE,  ++INDUSTRY, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++RESEARCH, ++ECONOMY, ++EFFIC
Bioengineered,   HomoSup, ++GROWTH, ++MORALE,  ++PLANET

Gave AI Controlled ++SUPPORT as there wasn't really a way to hit +3 SUPPORT SE.  Seemed most fitting there as it was the weakest and the automation would make supporting armies/formers easier. 

Even with all those bonuses the AI doesn't really like AI Controlled as a choice.  But I think it's decent, if you are going for a late-game horizontal expansion w/satellites.

[Nexii]

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE,    -EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY,  -POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE,    -RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, -PLANET
Planned,         Poly,    +INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, -ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,   -SUPPORT
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE,  +PROBE,    -GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH,+PLANET,   -PROBE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH,  +ECONOMY,  -MORALE
None,            None,
AI Control,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY,++SUPPORT, ++POLICE,-PROBE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH,++EFFIC, -POLICE
Bioengineered,   WillPow, ++GROWTH,  ++MORALE,  ++PLANET,-SUPPORT

Haven't changed things too much. Put in mild penalties, getting any SE was just such a huge boost that it made those techs essential. Strong penalties never worked well for the AI, it considers bonuses much more strongly than penalties when picking SEs.

Free Market's still a touch too good in nearly all circumstances. May make it --PLANET or -PLANET, -POLICE. -INDUSTRY on FM might also be interesting to represent waste and make it more energy focused over minerals

Not sure if I really like +INDUSTRY for Democracy thematically, it's supposed to represent less waste. +ECONOMY or +RESEARCH feel a bit more fitting, but those are more common in this set already

Likewise with Knowledge -PROBE never made much sense... -POLICE might be more appropriate.

[Nexii]

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE,    -EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY,  -POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE,    -RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, -PLANET,   -INDUSTRY
Planned,         Poly,    +INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, -ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,   -SUPPORT
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE,  +PROBE,    -GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH,+PLANET,   -POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH,  +ECONOMY,  -MORALE
None,            None,
AI Control,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY,++SUPPORT, ++POLICE,--PROBE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH,++EFFIC, --POLICE
Bioengineered,   WillPow, ++GROWTH,  ++MORALE,  ++PLANET,--SUPPORT

Doubled up on the advanced SE penalties, they give twice the pluses so -2 isn't so bad.
Free Market got -1 IND, I think it's more in-line with the other economic choices.
Knowledge feels a little weaker, -1 POL is kind of hurtful when combined with Democracy, it's most likely pairing. Probably fine though as +PLANET is quite strong with other modifications I have in

Fund/Wealth might also be a bit too strong. GROWTH is tough to balance around for sure. Personally I like booming, it's part of the game to control a booming population. And it kind of depowers the 2 most OP factions anyways University and CyCon

[Antiochos Epiphanes]

Hallo,
are these values for vanilla gameplay only or do they fit well when using Scient's Patch + Thinker mod, too? I ask because I have no idea whether the former do any change to the AI weighing its SE choices (don't even know whether that's possible at all) and even though I'm very happy about those unofficial patches I also re-discovered the flaws of the original game like Fundamentalism giving a Probe bonus while Police State does not. What I do understand is that fine-tuning SE values is delicate work, so I'd like to shamelessly benefit from your work if possible.

[Nexii]

Yea for sure. Even 1 more +/- can kind of make or break an SE as being worth it. In the base game Fundamentalism, Green, Power are all rather weak choices because their penalties are steep compared to the benefits. Even Police State for that matter on anyone but Yang. A simple modding set could just cut those SEs penalties in half. But like like many I go for penalties/bonuses that make a bit more sense thematically.

SE changes work fine for any other modding. I do a bunch of other custom modding, notably to make PLANET/PROBE more relevant. I'd say +2 ECON and +2/4 GROWTH are depowered a bit with my modding too, because building maintenance is lower and advanced nutrient terraforming comes later. Still the most powerful SEs breakpoints though.

In general I've found the same as other modders. I tried larger negative SE penalties for awhile but the AI struggles with it. The AI gives little consideration to negatives and mostly on what the pluses are, which is a flaw. So taking out the most crippling choices that take a faction to things like -4 EFFIC, -3 GROWTH, etc.

Trying with doubled up penalties to Fundamentalist (-2 RESEARCH) and Wealth (-2 MORALE) now. They're maybe just a touch too good at -1 but it's hard to tell. Personally I like booming in the game because you can risk economic greed, but it should come at a reasonable cost.

TLDR - I think the AI basically picks SEs the same no matter what other patch or modding you do. I've seen it pick everything in my modded set

[Antiochos Epiphanes]

Thanks, so with "modded set" you refer to your SE table, or do you have modded other things as well?

[Nexii]

Some other things I mod are
- rebalance of unit costs. flat armor costs, increase to air unit costs, free abilities, dual ability units come much later in the tech tree
- 50% sensors for defense, 50% intrinsic base defense
- borehole, forest, and sea facilities come later. faster echelon construction, slower forest terraforming
- cheaper facilities & maintenance to offset terrain nerfs and make +2 ECON less essential
- cheaper SPs generally, as the AI switches off them and to encourage teching to unique techs first
- mild ecodamage with clean minerals removed
- some minor tech and SP shuffling, such as cloning vats come late instead of mid game
- native life gets +3 planet, and planet applies to defense
- removal of all free probe team morale boosts from techs

lately I'm playing around with native life ideas. the main problem is that it moves slow. I've tried lower cost / slow and going to try out higher cost / fast

It doesn't relate too heavily to SEs though, most sets people make will work with any other modding. The AI only considers a few things from what I can tell by many simulated games. It seems to most prioritize MORALE when at war and RESEARCH when not at war. Overall it undervalues ECONOMY and GROWTH. It doesn't go crazy for PLANET rating either but the priority does seem to raise a bit when native life is cheaper... it may check the amount of native life units built or something. And some factions just seem to have general preferences too...

Likewise with negative SEs, the AI doesn't really check if a SE is maxed out from what I can tell. Like it will keep raising SUPPORT past +3 and MORALE past +4. This is a little harder to avoid than bad negative picks. So I suggest keeping most bonuses to +1/+2 to make it harder to overstack benefits.