Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Nexii]

This was a recent set I was playing around with. I think it's okay, though I kind of like more than one option to hit +2 ECON. Especially if trying to nerf down the ICS style of play. With crawlers and boreholes weakened, energy becomes quite scarce.

Basically avoiding -EFFIC as a penalty, it cripples the AI. Also avoiding -SUPPORT until later in the game, although I'm not sure if it really fits Knowledge. -POLICE probably is more thematic

I'd rather get the SE table right before my next round of modding. I've often felt that crawlers, formers, pods are undercosted leading to ICS, and facilities are overcosted leading to strange tech beelines. Same goes with armor and unit abilities, largely useless compared to chassis. Vertical growth is more interesting to me, so I prefer that pop-booming is possible.


Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,   ++SUPPORT, --GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++ECONOMY,  ++EFFIC,   -----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++PROBE,    ++MORALE,  --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++INDUSTRY, ---PLANET, --PROBE
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,   ++POLICE,  --RESEARCH
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,   ++RESEARCH,-INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT, -INDUSTRY
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, ++PROBE,   --SUPPORT
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH,   ++EFFIC,   --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT, ++RESEARCH,---GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++PLANET,   ++GROWTH,  ++INDUSTRY,++ECONOMY
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++MORALE,  ++PROBE,   ---ECONOMY

[bvanevery]

Police State --GROWTH is crippling to a human player.  Don't know about to AI factions.  Why do I need / want a bunch of POLICE if I'm not allowed to grow?

Democratic is the new Free Market, absent PLANET penalties?  Is it easy to obtain Democratic?  Seems like quite a giveaway.

Given your Politics options, I can't imagine that the stock AI is ever going to choose Police State compared to the other 2, unless it's forced.  i.e. the Hive.  Even then, I suspect the AI will choose Frontier.  Aside from -2 GROWTH just being a really bad penalty, the AI obsesses about GROWTH bonuses.  I haven't verified that it equally hates GROWTH penalties, because I don't have any -2 GROWTH in my own SE table.  Just -1 GROWTH for Power, due to all the people getting killed in wars.  The AI does swallow that, because it really likes +2 MORALE.

Free Market --PROBE is setting the baseline for probe actions in the stock binary awfully, awfully low.

Why make Planned a repeat of Police State?  And I don't see --RESEARCH as making any thematic sense at all.  For instance, the old USSR had no problem with research.  Heck it put Sputnik into orbit first.  The State putting priority and budget behind new research, is arguably what a Planned economy does well.  It's risk-averse capitalist big businesspeople that don't want to spend the money, unless they can see a "concrete and profitable application" out of it.

Giving Green +2 RESEARCH is rather much a giveaway.  +2 PLANET is already a really strong bonus.  You can gain so many captured mindworms and Isles.  And with those, lotsa money from supply pods.

Knowledge makes your research more secret, people can't steal it?  Doesn't make sense.  It's not called "Hoarding Knowledge".

When Wealth has no ECON bonus involved, it almost seems like you should call it something else.  Happiness?  Kinda like you're moving Eudaimonic to a Values choice.

Why would anyone choose Cybernetic over Eudaimonic?  You're going to make so much more money, and get your facilities done faster, and have more workers working the squares, that you can't possibly match all those buffs with a mere +2 RESEARCH.  Nevermind -2 GROWTH penalty.  The AI would be a fool to ever choose Cybernetic, unless forced.

For Thought Control, there is no point in having big PROBE if you can't have some money to go with it, to buy stuff out.

You have implemented only 1 clearly good Future Society.

[Nexii]

Yea -2 GROW on PS is quite steep. The AI will take it when at war over Democratic, as it hates -POLICE at war. The PS/Planned combo (or any +3/+4 POLICE) should not be underestimated. Free drone control and unit support is almost on par with +2 ECONOMY, especially until midgame facilities and commerce take off. And even then it scales with non-lethal methods. Controlling up to 9 population no matter the empire size is very powerful. A player can also boom up with Democratic (Psych) and then flip to Police State.

Planned having negative research arises from lack of market competition. Most of the world's tech innovation is in the USA and other free market countries. China and other Planned economies tend to just copy/steal our tech. And the USA did win the space race in the end. I considered moving +RESEARCH to Free Market from Green in the next set I do.

Wealth is more in the meaning of well-being in that set. I'd rather have it at +2 ECON but a penalty about on par with -5 POLICE which might be something around -3 MORALE or -3 SUPPORT.

Cyber comes a lot earlier than Eud, and so does TC. And Cyber/TC penalties can be negated by SP. So Eud should be better, although, the gap might be a bit much here.

As said not entirely happy with this set. POLICE is kind of like GROWTH, PLANET and INDUSTRY in that the more you stack the better it gets. These sorts of non-linear benefits lead to almost forced combinations like PS/Planned. With strong bonuses and penalties it becomes really complex to create viable combinations across tiers. In the base SE set I'd argue there are very few combination choices that are viable.

[bvanevery]

Controlling up to 9 population no matter the empire size is very powerful.

I dunno, I've quit many games futzing with way too many 4x police unit regarrisonings.  It's a lot of mouseclicks.  You have to produce all those units and push them around.  It doesn't seem to achieve that much more than making more money and paying 20% or 30% PSYCH tax, with a Rec Commons and a Hologram Theater.

In my mod I have Yang with +1 POLICE, not the Spartans, and no other faction getting that bonus.  He can go to +3 POLICE near the beginning of the game.  It's a good strategy and play style for him personally, that others have to get the Ascetic Virtues to pull off.  I'm not inclined to call it generally very powerful though.  I felt it necessary to arrange it like this for him, just so he could keep up.

A player can also boom up with Democratic (Psych) and then flip to Police State.

Why would you bother to stop booming?  You'd just spend more money on PSYCH.  You'd take all that money and buy happiness facilities.

The reason you stop booming with Planned in the original game, is because -2 EFFIC is onerous.

Planned having negative research arises from lack of market competition. Most of the world's tech innovation is in the USA and other free market countries.

Er, Linux, Free Software Foundation, Open Source, Creative Commons <cough> <cough> <cough>

I won't confuse these for an actual Socialist agenda, but they sure aren't a Free Market ethos.

China and other Planned economies tend to just copy/steal our tech.

"Our" tech.  That's a rather right wing view of where tech comes from.  Generally speaking, I'm opposed to embedding right wing assumptions in games.  Broadly: computer tech has come from a lot of hackers.  Who have a hacker ethos, not a Free Market ethos.  Closest in the game's terms to the Knowledge social engineering choice.

And the USA did win the space race in the end.

Remind me, what was won?  Prestige of getting to the moon first?  I don't recall any tangible, geopolitically important victories in space.

Cyber comes a lot earlier than Eud, and so does TC. And Cyber/TC penalties can be negated by SP. So Eud should be better, although, the gap might be a bit much here.

If you intend to stick yourself with the vanilla tech tree, well that's a pretty big constraint on what you can ever balance.

With strong bonuses and penalties it becomes really complex to create viable combinations across tiers.

I did mostly weak bonuses and penalties, to create mostly a mix 'n' match system.  Over time, I had to balance that system by delaying some SE choices that were too beneficial.