Changes to the Social Engineering models

[bvanevery]

If Democratic is available in the early game, that's an awfully big military giveaway, offering ++MORALE for basically nothing.  To put that in perspective, Santiago will have Elite units for everything.  This is why I don't give early game MORALE bonuses at all.

Police State Planned is awfully effective policing.  2x effective due to +3 POLICE.  I allow my Chairman Yang to have that as his special ability, starting the game with +1 POLICE that he then mixes with +2 available in the SE table for Police  State.  Nobody else gets that kind of police boost, they have to build the Ascetic Virtues or wait for Thought Control.

Cybernetic peoples don't do research?  Who knew?  I figure one of the future societies is going to do the research.  I just don't see why it's going to be the eudaimonicists rather than the cyberneticists.  Doesn't having chips in your brain, give you better research?  There is no "Mentat" fiction ala Dune in SMAC.

[Nexii]

Yea I got thinking about how Planned could be +/- EFFIC depending whether it represents corruption/waste or societal equality, as the game seems to imply both across the base SEs. Similar with Cybernetic but in the other direction of Planned (less corruption/waste but less equality). Probably it needs to be one or the other.

Noted your SE set went with the latter: JUSTICE. I was leaning perhaps to the former (as the main effect is lost energy) but I have to give this more thought. If it's more about corruption then societal equality has to be represented by POLICE, TALENT, and/or GROWTH which I'm not really sure about.

-POLICE to me feels like it should sit in Democracy/Knowledge to represent freedom and/or pacifism
+POLICE obviously in Police State and Thought Control
+/- GROWTH perhaps, but it's more focuses and values to me. More equality could be GROWTH, we are seeing today less births due to inequality (at least in the middle class)

RESEARCH may be best fitting in Cybernetic. I can see it from a hivemind collaborative AI perspective as well... this sort of thing is starting to happen even in today's society. In this case INDUSTRY would probably have to flip back to Eudaimonic, which may be okay.

[Nexii]

......

[bvanevery]

Trying to wrap my head around growth, is how my mod originally got its name.  Worrying about it, didn't hold up!  Game mechanically it's so overpowered to be handing out GROWTH.  The stock AI also fixates on it to the exclusion of much else.  So I put it on a pretty severe diet.  Only after a very long time, did my Theocratic replacement for Fundamentalist, evolve to be the early GROWTH giving choice.

[Nexii]

Yea I think PS needs negative ECON or it's just too good. ICS with FM or Wealth. Should have to run both and endure some real downsides to get +2 ECON with that much POLICE. I can see why they put -5 POLICE onto stock Free Market though tbh it doesn't make thematic sense.

Only one I'm kinda leaning to being a bit weak is Green Economics. Although its kind of its own strategy with how I mod. Fungus production is better and FM/Planned can't use Fungus with the negative PLANET. Native life costs are slightly reduced and mind worms move at speed 2. Fungus productivity can easily make Green ridiculously overpowered or underpowered though, depending.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,   ++SUPPORT,  --ECONOMY
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++MORALE,   ++EFFIC,    ---POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,   ++PROBE,    -RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,  ---PLANET,  --SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,   +INDUSTRY,  --PLANET
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,   ++TALENT,   -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT,  --GROWTH
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    --POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  --PROBE,    --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT,  ++RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++PLANET,   ++INDUSTRY, ++GROWTH,   --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++PROBE,    ++MORALE,   --RESEARCH

[bvanevery]

Mindworms attack at full strength even with 1/3 move remaining, so a speed 2 mindworm is pretty powerful.  I'm inclined to say overpowered, but I've never playtested such mindworms.

[Nexii]

Planned was too good with Wealth, changed it to be -2 ECONOMY. More in line with base SEs.

Also flipped PS and Power penalties. ECONOMY choices on the same tier give more overall choice.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,   ++SUPPORT,  --GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++MORALE,   ++EFFIC,    ---POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,   ++PROBE,    -RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,  ---PLANET,  --SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,   +INDUSTRY,  --ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,   ++TALENT,   -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT,  --ECONOMY
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    --POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  --PROBE,    --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT,  ++RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++PLANET,   ++INDUSTRY, ++GROWTH,   --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++PROBE,    ++MORALE,   --RESEARCH

[bvanevery]

Why do I want the happiness benefits of controlling population in a PS, if I can't actually grow a population where I need that?  Are you seeing this as the "turn off your growth and get your rioters under control" option?

[Nexii]

Yea more or less for Police State. There's also the benefit of being able to run less PSYCH due to the drone control, and more production from the SUPPORT.

-2 GROWTH might be a bit steep, I'll see. Has to be -1 at a minimum.

[Nexii]

More tweaking.
Police State and Democratic buffed a little, and Fundamentalist nerfed a little. GROWTH is really powerful (whether you mod to encourage vertical or horizontal expansion).
Economics becomes more of an energy (FM) / minerals (Planned) / nutrients (Green) choice.
Power slightly nerfed, it was a little too good in all situations.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,   ++SUPPORT,  -GROWTH
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++MORALE,   ++EFFIC,    --POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,   ++PROBE,    --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,  --PLANET,   --SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++SUPPORT,  ++INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,   ++GROWTH,   -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++PROBE,    --ECONOMY
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    --POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  --PROBE,    --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT,  ++RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++PLANET,   ++INDUSTRY, ++GROWTH,   --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++PROBE,    ++MORALE,   --RESEARCH

[bvanevery]

GROWTH for Green is absolutely anti-narrative, and also anti real world Green politics.  Don't you remember Deidre's pronouncements about how things work when population growth is controlled?

A refresher about diplomatic dialogue:

Code: [Select]

#SOCIAL1CAT2BAD3
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"$TITLE0 $NAME1, your Planned economics are wasteful. More to the
point, your ballooning population and inefficient, polluting industry
will soon cause permanent damage to Planet's fragile environment.
I am sure your concerns are humanitarian in nature, but in the long
run your people will benefit from a carefully regulated Green economy."


Code: [Select]

#SOCIAL1CAT2PACT3
"I see my warnings have gone unheeded, $TITLE0 $NAME1. Your
inefficient collective factories continue to belch industrial
waste, and you have made no efforts to contain your rampant
population growth. Your lack of concern for Planet's ecology
compels me to renounce our $PACT2!"


Code: [Select]

#SOCIAL1CAT3BAD2
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"We are the last survivors of the human race, $TITLE0 $NAME1.
Surely you must recognize that well-managed population and industrial
growth must take precedence over the complaints-du-jour of whining
environmental idealists. I urge you to renounce your extremist
Green position."


Code: [Select]

#SOCIAL1CAT3WAR2
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"$TITLE0 $NAME1, your misguided Green extremism can no longer be
tolerated. Since you persist in blocking the necessary growth of
population and industry, I have no choice but to resort to military
force. Vendetta upon you, $TITLE0 $NAME1!"


[Nexii]

Yea fair re: Green. Though I always felt PLANET/EFFIC was pretty weak. 2 PLANET 2 EFFIC -1 GROWTH wouldn't be awful. Though with EFFIC in abundance and having diminishing returns, it's fairly weak.

I think SUPPORT might fit Green a bit better. Given that Clean reactor gives support, and native life gets free support in fungus.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,   ++SUPPORT,  --ECONOMY
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++MORALE,   ++EFFIC,    --POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,   ++PROBE,    -RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,  --PLANET,   --SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,   +INDUSTRY,  --ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,   ++SUPPORT,  -GROWTH
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++PROBE,    -INDUSTRY
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    --POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  --PROBE,    --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT,  ++RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++PLANET,   ++INDUSTRY, ++GROWTH,   --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++PROBE,    ++MORALE,   --RESEARCH

[bvanevery]

I think you are really, really confused about what it means to be Green, in real life, and what it means in Deirdre's narrative.  Fungus provides support for a very specific thing, the mindworm.  Not for terraformers or garrison troops or planes or ships or all that other development industrial stuff.  Deirdre is anti-development.  I'm not sure how you could be missing that, unless you're not exactly interested / enamored / sympathetic / resonant with what Deirdre was saying as a Green.

In the original narrative, none of the factions know how to make a Clean Reactor at the beginning of the game.  The Green social engineering choice comes relatively early in the game, when still, nobody has the slightest clue about how to make a Clean Reactor.  So it doesn't make any sense, to say Green should have a support bonus, for something that comes later in the game that they have no clue about.

There's no reason to believe that Clean Reactors have to be invented by environmentalists.  It could be discovered by pure scientists doing basic physics research.  It could be discovered by industrial magnates who need to get their production higher.

Oddly enough, in my mod, everyone starts out knowing how Clean Reactors work.  It's a basic feature of human knowledge, same as how to build a boat.  So in my mod, there's nothing particularly Green about it.  I figure, if your society is advanced enough to be putting nuclear reactor packs on the backs of Scouts, well you can jolly well have figured out how to control nuclear fission to a very, very picky degree of detail.

My main sin is glossing over fission vs. fusion.  The way it actually gets used in the game is "bigger energy pack".

[Nexii]

More about sustainable development. The SUPPORT would represent more sustainable units. Or less waste as SUPPORT represents that in Civ2.

I can see EFFIC fitting Green I suppose, somehow it became an equity movement too although this doesn't seem directly related to environmentalism.

AI won't pick Green with +2 PLANET +2 EFFIC if it has GROWTH downside - and rightfully so.

Hitting +2 ECON (FM) or pop boom (Planned if GROWTH) just blows it out of the water, unless you make native life incredibly strong

[bvanevery]

I can see EFFIC fitting Green I suppose, somehow it became an equity movement too although this doesn't seem directly related to environmentalism.

EFFIC in the original game is capitalist neoliberal BS.  All I see in the game's original notion of economic EFFIC, is exploited workers.  That's why I changed it to JUSTICE, going back to something more like the original Civ II concept of "better court systems".  Also deliberately implementing social justice.  So, my Deirdre does get +1 JUSTICE because a Green focus does make people's lives better, doesn't externalize the disposal of toxic waste and so forth.  Fewer people poisoned, or flooded out.  But ultimately, Deirdre will feed people to the mindworms and prioritize Planet over people if necessary, so I do not consider Green in this game as just as Socialist.  Socialist gets +2 JUSTICE, the most you can get from 1 choice.  Recently my Eudaimonic also gets +2 JUSTICE, as it is pretty much the utopianist future society choice.

I think in real world politics, pitting Socialist and Green against each other is usually a false choice.  Although, one does have the issue of the dependent poor countries, wanting to industrialize, like their industrial democratic capitalist masters have already done.  At the expense of things like air quality and rain forests. 

Dealing more seriously with the nuances of real world politics, including real world strains of religious fervor as opposed to the "Miriam warmonger!" stereotype, is probably something I'll try to do in a commercial 4X title.  Pitting the ideologies against each other is the main thing I see as worthwhile about SMAC, and the ideologies could stand to have more scope and clarity.  Rather than say, trying to mull the differences between "Police State" and "Fundamentalist".  In the real world, there are none.  This has bothered me for a long time, but eventually I accepted the need for play mechanical differences in SMAC.  Particularly with respect to an AI that is already written and that I'm not going to change.

AI won't pick Green with +2 PLANET +2 EFFIC if it has GROWTH downside - and rightfully so.

Wrongfully so.  The AI was written incorrectly for Deirdre's narrative.  "GROWTH is good for winning the game" is not compatible with her narrative.  AI was clearly implemented as a one size fits all game mechanical effectiveness thing.  Well hey SMAC couldn't have been expected to get everything right.  They did more to combine gameplay and narrative than anyone had done, or has done since.  They didn't make enough money to justify a sequel, so we modders are left to punt 2 decades later.

In my mod I unfortunately had to implement a Green with no downsides, to get past this original game bug where any downside, causes Deirdre not to choose it.   It's ridiculous for her to get to midgame, be exhorting everyone to go Green, and not be Green herself.  In my most recent release, I compensated for the lack of downsides, by making Green take longer to get.