Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Nexii]

Yang is the closest thing to communism, that is Police State+Planned.

They needed factions that embodied:
Planned, Wealth, Thought Control

We get 2 Democratic, 2 Green, 2 Power instead

TC - Cult
Pirates - Wealth
Domai? - Planned

But then someone else would have to be Eudaimonia, maybe PKs

[bvanevery]

Yang is the closest thing to communism, that is Police State+Planned.

Definitely, without a doubt, and quite deliberately so.  He's a spaceification of Chairman Mao Tse-Tung, with "cyberpunk woo" added.  "Hitler in space" or "Hitler as a cyborg" is a sci-fi genre, exemplified by movies such as "Iron Sky".  Well imagine Mao in space, this is what you get.

I tweaked Yang's faction to be squarely focused on POLICE, and less on Planned / Socialist.  This to echo our contemporary experience of China.  They were never terribly Communist in the worker collective sense.  They're pretty capitalist and money grubbing, and better thought of nowadays as a Single Party State that has a historical Communist faceplate on it.  I wanted my Yang to potentially choose Police State Free Market, more like modern China.

In practice, my version of Socialist often dovetails with Police State.  PS doesn't give you any ECONOMY bonus, whereas my Democratic does.  So you see a lot of Democratic Capitalist for the +2 ECONOMY that gives you in total.  Whereas factions that insist on Police State (Hive), Theocratic (Believers), or Socialist (Drones, Aliens), tend to pair those things up, because they can't get to +2 ECONOMY.

This can change once Wealth is introduced.  Or Cybernetic, which in my mod is sort of ultra-Morganite Blade Runner thing.

But then someone else would have to be Eudaimonia, maybe PKs

Lal is the champion of Democratic, end of story.  Any other decision is gross violation of the original game material.

I have Eudaimonia as my Planet friendly thing, Cult on Eudaimonia, and Data Angels on Thought Control.  With a lot of tech tree reshuffling, I could reverse the Planet orientation and their positions.  I will think long and hard about whether that's worth it.

One reason to consider it, is that Roze doesn't actually need Thought Control.  She's already super tough on PROBE and the AI often chooses Police State, which in my mod brings her to +3 PROBE at the beginning of the game.  Making her a bubbly Eudaimonic, would be moving her back to her original characterization, instead of my darker interpretation her.  I figure all that cyber hacking mind controlling went to her head.  Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all of that.

The Cult being into Thought Control has some narrative appeal, but it has no practical value.  TBH late game PROBE bonuses are useless.  I think in my mod, it has retained a vestigial narrative flavor.  I wanted someone to do every slot in the SE table.  But I don't think Roze has ever worked as a Thought Control Conqueror.

[vonbach]

Domai? - Planned

But then someone else would have to be Eudaimonia, maybe PKs

Eudaimonia fits Domai. He wants a better world for his people.

This to echo our contemporary experience of China.  They were never terribly Communist in the worker collective sense.

China is more nationalist than anything else.

Lal is the champion of Democratic, end of story.  Any other decision is gross violation of the original game material.

I've made him Police State focused in the past. Out of Democracies flows the cruelest of tyrants
.

One reason to consider it, is that Roze doesn't actually need Thought Control.

Neither the Data Angels or Thought control ever had much going for them. Both are pretty useless.

[bvanevery]

Neither the Data Angels or Thought control ever had much going for them. Both are pretty useless.

At least I made my Data Angels get their free techs without having to infiltrate anybody.  It was totally unrealistic to expect the poor dumb AI to do that with everyone.  They tend to be ahead early due to all the tech leakage coming their way, and behind late because they only know how to steal tech, not make it.

Just realized any retooling of Eudaimonia on my part is probably not going to work.  In my mod, Explore means growth, happiness, and mindworm warfare.  I'm not happy with the conflation of all those categories, but it's what the original game actually does, and how the AI actually works.  Well at least for growth and mindworms.  Happiness, I decided to make it more of an Explore thing than a Build thing, because of the AI treatment of "population and growth".  The idea being that in the future, you can be happy and poor.  You don't need to be building and money grubbing.

I did somewhat recant as time went on, making happiness bleed into Build with half as much research weight put on it.  So Builders will probably figure out some happiness stuff at some point.  Because, more happy workers does actually make you more minerals and money.

Anyways, my Eudaimonia evolved to be the logical conclusion of GROWTH + PLANET.  If I switched things around and made that Thought Control instead, well then I'm adding PROBE to that.  Which doesn't make a lot of sense.  Singing kumbaya with Planet ala Eudaimonia makes a lot more sense.

A case could be made for the uselessness of Thought Control and replacing it with something else.  I don't think it's great stuff in the original game material, because no faction championed it.  Me sticking Roze in there, was an invention, and it's not effective.

I'm happy with my Cybernetic and my Eudaimonic.  But I'm not sure what Future Society I'd contrast those with, if I ditched Thought Control.

Arguably, Cybernetic already is Thought Control.  Maybe not in the original game, but in a dystopian Blade Runner or Chairman Yang version of the future, it is.  Miriam's "We Must Dissent".

[vonbach]

Neither the Data Angels or Thought control ever had much going for them. Both are pretty useless.

At least I made my Data Angels get their free techs without having to infiltrate anybody.  It was totally unrealistic to expect the poor dumb AI to do that with everyone.  They tend to be ahead early due to all the tech leakage coming their way, and behind late because they only know how to steal tech, not make it.

I kept that in actually. Still didn't do them much good last game. Got pulverized by the Guardians of morality a classic believer type faction.
The most important things I've seen for the AI is aggression and an interest in growth. So i modified every faction to have an interest in growth.

[bvanevery]

I used to believe that setting ai_growth=1 was essential to AI faction performance.  I went through long periods of development with that, at least a year, maybe longer.  Something happened as my faction balance and tech tree evolved though.  It stopped being necessary.  It could be that there are some key techs that influence the AI's behavior somehow, and those got moved earlier in my tech tree.  For whatever reason, I simply didn't need to rely on ai_growth as the One True Crutch anymore.

I currently have every faction with a unique combo of ai_whatever imperatives.  This happens to work out to 14, not including the all and nothing cases, which I don't implement.  I spent a lot of time differentiating the choices according to what is hopefully correct about faction character.  So for instance, Yang finally became a Discover Conquer faction.  Because if you pay attention to his lore, he clearly researches things up the wazoo.

Aggression is not key to AI performance.  Whether to pick Aggressive, Erratic, or Passive is situational for the faction.  The Pirates, for instance, have a giant moat around them called the ocean.  They do best with Passive, building up this huge threat over time.  They used to be quite terrifying halfway through my modding work, but something shifted and I don't find them so terrifying anymore.  Maybe I'm just better at beating my own mod now?

I make factions Aggressive when they'd gain an advantage by attacking.  So of course, the Spartans and the Usurpers, because they have MORALE bonuses.  I waffled about the Believers but eventually decided their +25% fanatic bonus means they should go on the offensive.  I had a more "soft Morganite" version of them for awhile, but went back more towards original material.

[vonbach]

I've always liked the simple solutions. Giving the AI and interest in growth is a lot easier than redesigning the entire tree.
Its also why I have Growth bonuses spread out in the SE tree.

Aggressive factions always seem to do better to me. Especially ones with support.

[bvanevery]

Well, yeah, "simple" solutions... but I started with those kinds of things 2.5 years ago.  Heck, "SMACX AI Growth mod" was partially named for that.  If one keeps banging on stuff, one finds more ways to solve the problems.

I redesigned the whole tree because it needed it.

I'm starting to question whether my Theocratic is too boring, just giving +1 GROWTH and nothing else.  But if I make it too good, the AIs will go nuts for it.

[Nexii]

Yea it's a balance, between making SEs useful and not too OP. I'm going through a similar round of modding for reimagining the factions. Giving them benefits that make them feel unique.

I think I'll keep the more PSI/Planet inspired Thought Control. Using PSI technologies learned from Planet to control one's population seems more in-lore than subtle neurotransmitters. Eudaimonic is more of an enlightened post-scarcity humanity that doesn't use machines or PSI.

In the end the bonuses/penalties don't shift too much, but I feel this is more accurate to such societies:
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    +++PROBE,   --PLANET
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,   ++ECONOMY,  ++INDUSTRY, --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++MORALE,   ++PLANET,   --RESEARCH

Cybernetic may be the least powerful of the 3 but it does come earlier. Arguably has a more mild penalty too.

[bvanevery]

A problem with Thought Control as the Planet friendly thing, is the scriptx.txt diplomatic dialogue for Thought Control is all about being the One True Despot.  Since Roze is my champion of that world view, I've had a lot of time to listen to it.  In a way that the rest of you may not have, since you've probably lacked a TC pushing faction.  This dialogue, unfortunately, has nothing to do with Planet.  And the videos about Deirdre and talking to Planet, are positively framed.  Using Planet to control everyone's thoughts, even though logical to us as worldbuilding analysts, really isn't backed up by the actual lore in the videos.  It's like, we extrapolate about the weaponization of Planet, but the original material didn't perform the extrapolation.  That makes selling it kinda aberrant.

If one is willing to change scriptx.txt, one could solve this problem.  It wouldn't be a great harm to the original material of the game, because no faction actually uttered TC diplomatic dialogue.  Nobody except a modder has heard someone like Roze go on and on about being the one true leader of the people.

Eudaimonic pushing dialogue, in contrast can be about Planet.  It does resonate with all of the video materials about talking to "Planet, who is a German lady".

[Nexii]

More using PSI than Planet, think of like Yuri in Command and Conquer. As in the default tech tree Will To Power (TC) requires Centauri PSI as a prerequisite. The scripts wouldn't have to change, really it's the same TC only with PLANET instead of PROBE.

With the population relying on one voice, I figured Planet/PSI is a reasonable benefit. You could be more resilient to PSI with another powerful voice in your head to keep you sane. Though the economic side of Planet might be a stretch, I guess we can say some kind of attunement with Planet is a side effect of the PSI control, as it shares a resonance. But it dulls creative thought (-RESEARCH).

I may also give Cybernetic SUPPORT over PROBE. Automated units seem like less maintenance than manually controlled. This leaves only Fundamentalist with +PROBE but I can see it as more of a cultural benefit than one related to computers. Regardless PROBE is weak as an SE unless you have probe cost reductions, so I need to really rethink the Data Angels

[bvanevery]

It's not about what we can imagine TC to be.  It's about what the game is pushing us to imagine.  Deirdre's got all these discussion videos with Planet, where it's just not about subjugation and domination.  It's about environmentalism.  German Lady Planet says, "Almost we pruned you, as we may yet prune your branches."  I don't think you're going to redo the voice acting or the videos.  The story of Planet is told as Deirdre's story.  It's not a Yang / Santiago / Miriam domination and oppression story.  Although we can imagine the technical possibility, it is not actually thematic to the source material of the game.

Let's put it another way.  Do you really think Deidre's main bent is ruling Planet as the one true environmental dictator?  Although you might not put it past her, do you really think she's gonna utter a whole lot of Yang-esque dialogue about the One vs. the masses?  It just doesn't fit.

This problem could be alleviated by a PLANET oriented faction that does want to dominate everyone.  Hmm, is Cha Dawn that wound up?  Maybe.  But the actual scriptx.txt dialogue doesn't talk about Planet at all.  I don't think it makes sense for Cha Dawn to be going on and on about being a ruler, just in isolation by itself.  His schtick should be about how everyone has to obey Planet.

SUPPORT has no real value in the mid to late game.  Seems I have +1 SUPPORT in my own TC.  Pretty pointless.  I don't remember ever taking TC in any game of mine for many many months now.  I either take Cybernetic for money and research, or Eudaimonic for growth and Planet.  TC I'd only do if I built the Cloning Vats, and I still might not.  I haven't made it to the C.V. in a long time.  Tend to get bored and quit before then.

[vonbach]

I'm less concerned with lore and game audio than I am with gameplay. Though I could see why people would be.
I never was impressed with the idea of thought control. Either in lore or in gameplay. centuries in the future and thats
the best way they could find to manage a  population?
Thats one of the reasons i thought about  renaming it to Harmony like it's an extension of the Aesthetic Virtues.
Though I could probably come up with a better name. The idea of a future society where people actually believe
in working for the greater whole. Something like the Greater Good of the T'au in 40,000.

[bvanevery]

But that's just Eudaimonia.  They did that.  It's the highest excellence, the best thing in us.  Now, what that should mean game mechanically, is debatable.  A jump in population growth definitely seems reasonable, and all these excellent people are going to be really efficient.

Do you see a big problem distinguishing between excellence and harmony?  I don't.  Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.  The endgame admonition is "Be Excellent to one another!"

[vonbach]

But that's just Eudaimonia.  They did that.  It's the highest excellence, the best thing in us. 

No Eudaemonia  is the pursuit of personal excellence. The society I am talking about is one where people put the
greater whole above personal excellence or personal needs.