Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Antiochos Epiphanes]

Thank you, I guess I could not even change half of the things you mentioned, partly due to to lack of modding knowledge (even though AC at least gives a lot of explanations in the .txt-files), partly due to fear of breaking the game... I only reduced Morgan's habitation penalty to -1 instead of -3 and changed Spartans' looks and text slightly to give them a much less survivalist and much more "military strategist" flavour. I might increase Probe costs by 200% for each faction as mind-controlling settlements happens too often and seems too inexpensive for my taste.

Anyway, I took your last SE table and so far I'm very happy with it, the game feels balanced and better - and I think the AI tends to have more energy, by the way:

Lal has Fundamentalist, Planned, Wealth
Deidre Police State, Green, Power
Zakharov Democratic, Planned, Knowledge
Morgan Police State, Free Market, Power
Miriam Fundamentalist, Planned, Power
Yang Police State, Planned, Wealth
I as Spartans chose Police State, Planned, Power for the moment

[Nexii]

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE,    -EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY,  -POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE,    --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, -PLANET,   -INDUSTRY
Planned,         PlaNets, +INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, -ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,   -SUPPORT
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE,  +PROBE,    -GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH,+PLANET,   -POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH,  +ECONOMY,  --MORALE
None,            None,
AI Control,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY,++SUPPORT, ++POLICE,--PROBE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH,++EFFIC, --POLICE
Bioengineered,   WillPow, ++GROWTH,  ++MORALE,  ++PLANET,--SUPPORT

This is my most current. I'd say to try PLANET at -2 or even -3 on Free Market if you don't apply PLANET to PSI combat or have native life boosted up.

Yea PS/Planned/Power is great for Sparta. Maxed out POLICE, PROBE and MORALE is incredible. They do lose easy pop booming where they don't have Wealth. But that's not a big deal compared to losing -2 IND and -4 EFFIC before, it wasn't even an option. 3 police units per base means you don't have to make drone facilities for a long time.

Agree on Morgan being weak I haven't seen him finish top 3 in a lot of simulated games. He's supposed to be this great vertical builder but it's just mediocre with small bases. Even in a peaceful world his commerce is kinda meh if you make smaller bases in excess they have no one to trade with. I like the idea of lessening his hab penalty. I considered whether he should get free energy banks or something else...

Strangely Gaians and PKs seem to do the best in simulated games. I'm not sure why that is.

[Nexii]

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,  ++PROBE,   -EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,   +INDUSTRY, --POLICE, +TALENT
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,  +MORALE,   --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, -PLANET,   -MORALE
Planned,         PlaNets, +INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, -ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,   -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE,  +PROBE,    --GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH,+PLANET,   --POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH,  +ECONOMY,  --MORALE
None,            None,
AI Control,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY,++SUPPORT, ++POLICE,--PROBE
Utopian,         Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH,++EFFIC, --POLICE
Bioengineered,   WillPow, ++GROWTH,  ++MORALE,  ++PLANET,--SUPPORT

Just a few minor economic tweaks:
Free Market got -MORALE instead of -INDUSTRY. Much like Wealth, with more of the population working to generate economic activity it comes more of a military cost than industrial.
Green got -INDUSTRY instead of -SUPPORT. A Green economy wouldn't really make military more expensive to support. But it would slow down overall production.
Edit: one more, I put Demo back to -2 POLICE. This way P-drones come back if running Knowledge or for negative POLICE factions. Offset by +TALENT, otherwise it's not really runnable early game.

[Bearu]

I must preface my current social engineering table with several caveats:
I never use the expanded SMACX technology tree, so the Social models operate with the approximately original SMAC technology tree. This means no Aliens appear in my games.
I renamed Economy to Energy. I internally modified the code to remove +1 energy per square because of the imbalance of the bonus. I made +Economy provide +1 commerce at +2, +3, and +4. I made negative economy provide -1 Commerce at -1 Energy.
I removed the + modifier for Positive Morale at +2 and +3 and the 1/2 military modifiers for -2 or lower morale. Morale now provides straight morale bonuses.
I changed Advanced Military Algorithms to Doctrine: Total War because of the doctrine symbol around the tech and the fact the tech provides the option to repeal the UN charter.
I renamed Doctrine: Loyalty to Doctrine: Security because the symbol looks like a stylized S.

(click to show/hide)

Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocSec, ++POLICE, ++PROBE, --ENERGY, --EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++TALENT, ++GROWTH, --INDUSTRY, --POLICE
Fundamentalist,  DocFlex, ++SUPPORT, +INDUSTRY, ---RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ENERGY, +EFFIC, -PLANET, ---TALENT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY, ++GROWTH, --EFFIC, --RESEARCH
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET, -ENERGY, -INDUSTRY, -POLICE
Survival,        None,
Power,           DocWar,  +++MORALE, +SUPPORT, --GROWTH, -TALENT
Knowledge,       Cyber, +++RESEARCH, +EFFIC, --PROBE, -SUPPORT
Wealth,          Global, ++INDUSTRY, +ENERGY, --PLANET, -MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, --POLICE, -GROWTH
Eudaimonic,  Eudaim, ++GROWTH, +ENERGY, +TALENT, ---MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +MORALE, +POLICE, +PROBE, ---SUPPORT

#SOCENERGY:
-3, -2 energy/base
-2, -1 energy/base
-1, -1 energy at HQ base; -1 commerce rating
0, Standard energy rates
1, +1 energy/base
2, +2 energy/base; +1 commerce rating
3, +3 energy/base; +2 commerce rating
4, +4 energy/base; +3 commerce rating!
5, +5 energy/base; +3 commerce rating!!

#SOCTALENT
-4, Four extra drones at each base.
-3, Three extra drones at each base.
-2, Two extra drones at each base
-1, One extra drone at each base
0, Standard workers at each base
1, One extra talent at each base
2, Two extra talents at each base
3, Three extra talents at each base!

#SOCMORALE
-4, -4 Morale
-3, -3 Morale
-2, -2 Morale
-1, -1 Morale
0, Normal Morale
1, +1 Morale
2, +2 Morale
3, +3 Morale!
4, +4 Morale!!

[Nexii]

Interesting where is MORALE / ECON modded that way? The above are just the toolips as far as I can tell

[Bearu]

Interesting where is MORALE / ECON modded that way? The above are just the toolips as far as I can tell

I made many personal changes through .exe modification under the latest version of Yitzi's Patch.
My changes cover a fairly comprehensive list of AI alterations and some display changes, but the relevant changes appear below:
I optimized the commerce section to add two potential additional commerce modifications for Economy. I added -1 Commerce rate to -1 Economy and left the other commerce change blank for now because -1 Energy at HQ means nothing in most games.
I modified the progression of Economy. I removed the +1 energy per square bonus for Economy. The game manual states the +4 energy per base and + 3 commerce should start at +5 Economy, but the game only calculated energy additions to +4 Economy. I had to make a design decision on the Economy score, so I decided on a linear growth so certain posirive Economy scores never receive unwieldy bonuses through +5 Economy.
I removed the nasty Children's Creche and Brood Pit bug for Negative Morale in base squares from the game.  I then noticed the uneven distribution of bonuses and penalties for MORALE, and I decided to try +4 Morale and -4 MORALE so the non-social MORALE bonus can provide a faction immediate elite units. I need to play test more to find if the change unbalances the game.

[Nexii]

Interesting. I always felt like ECON should have been a % modifier to economy, rather than adding or removing the base square. When you get deeper into the game the base square doesn't really mean much. But I suppose COMMERCE really does (most of the time), so that is okay

[Bearu]

Interesting. I always felt like ECON should have been a % modifier to economy, rather than adding or removing the base square. When you get deeper into the game the base square doesn't really mean much. But I suppose COMMERCE really does (most of the time), so that is okay

I can agree with your sentiment on Economy. Do you mean the economy output or the actual formula for calculating Economy.
The problem with modifying the economy production of bases through the ECON score remains the strength of the bonus and the practicality of the implementation. If I followed the progression bonus of +10% Economy production per base like RESEARCH, for example, then you would receive essentially a free energy bank at each base with +5 ECONOMY that stacks with the other facility bonuses. The game uses a point system for 25% increments of change for facilities in the economy, laboratory, and psych allocations of a base. This point system for the modification of base output remains the reason most of the base facilities provide straight either +25% or +50% bonuses to these outputs. RESEARCH only modifies Research technology cost formula after the summed total of laboratories appears in the research rate function, not the base production of laboratories.
 
Furthermore, the developers' assignment of Discover mandate priority for energy production suggests Economy fulfills the role of improving both research and economy output. Anywhere the AI focuses on Energy production outside the Research, Psych, and Economy allocation controls, the Discover and Build mandates prioritize energy production.

[Nexii]

Yea I think they knew ECONOMY impacted research and psych. I found that +2 ECON was too crucial for simple facility maintenance, combined with the labs differential and easy ways to tank effic a lot of low economy strategies just weren't viable. But that's an aside.

What I meant was ECONOMY should only modify the energy that is allocated into energy credits. Not the portion that goes to labs or psych. But then it might not be quite so crucial, so I don't really know if it would make for a better game. Certainly it would be easier to balance around. And theres the side issue that then there's no SE that really boosts up PSYCH (which there probably should be, come to think of it). Something like a CULTURE SE

But yea the way they implmented it ENERGY is a better name as you pointed out

[Nexii]

Went back to more traditional (but reworked) Future Society SEs. Reason is with late game PLANET it got a little ridiculous how much +PSI power one could get. 8 for Cult with Manifold, Green, Knowledge, Bioengineered. 7 for Gaia and 6 for most other factions. When PLANET stacks up that high then it becomes the only choice or you get steamrolled by PSI units. So I'm avoiding any of them getting PLANET SE. I feel like if you can transcend as any Future Society, then Planet is rather indifferent about your choices.

INDUSTRY seems to fit AI Controlled (Cybernetic) a bit better, machines can produce more things than humans. PLANET never really made sense. Neither did RESEARCH really, that seems more Utopian (Eudaimonic) fitting. So I gave AI Controlled SUPPORT, I think it makes sense. A drone army is lower cost than a human one. Downside is PROBE, representing the vulnerability of automated systems and reduced population loyalty to non-human leaders. Negative POLICE never seemed fitting really to me. It's kind of the middle-ground Future Society SE, decent for both war and peace.

Utopian gets negative POLICE instead of MORALE. Star Trek as an example they are a utopia and still build war ships. Non-interference or non-aggression is better represented by minus police than morale. Definitely the peaceful or late-game defensive choice to Transcend the first.

Orwellian (Thought Control) keeps the same benefits it always had. Good for war and population control. I didn't feel negative support made sense. Negative research is more thematic, 1984 was all about destroying past knowledge to keep control. Of course its the war choice, to try to conquer at the endgame.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,  ++PROBE,   -EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,   +INDUSTRY, -POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,  +MORALE,   --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, -PLANET,   -MORALE
Planned,         PlaNets, +INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, -ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,   -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE,  +PROBE,    --GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH,+PLANET,   --POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH,  +ECONOMY,  --MORALE
None,            None,
AI Controlled,   DigSent, ++INDUSTRY,++SUPPORT, ++EFFIC, ---PROBE
Utopian,         Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH,++GROWTH,---POLICE
Orwellian,       WillPow, ++POLICE,  ++PROBE,   ++MORALE,---RESEARCH

[EmpathCrawler]

Interesting take on Thought Control/Orwellian. Never figured out what to do with Future Societies. I think they're supposed to be like stepping on the gas into the endgame, but they come too late and they aren't dramatic enough. I've been meaning to tinker with them more.

[Nexii]

It would have been interesting if the future SEs had unique benefits/penalties. Some of them feel more like Politics choices. Like what is Democratic / Orwellian... (vote to be oppressed?) Police State / Utopian (maybe Yang would agree?) ... Fundamentalist / AI Control (is AI your new god?). There's probably better original ideas out there... I did like the Bioengineered one someone had. Where your population is becoming Planet/Human hybrids (at least as I interpreted it). I'd be interested in any other original future SE ideas others have.

Yea I might do some tinkering yet to make the Future SEs come just a little earlier. They are very powerful though, they allow factions with penalties and aversions to break those weaknesses. So I didn't really want that to be present for most of the game. They fuel a very fast endgame though I have done some things to mitigate that such as putting Cloning Vats and Satellites onto endgame techs. Maybe try them at +3/+3/+3/-3 to make them more dramatic. I had done more extreme SEs in the past but found the AI started to struggle especially if the penalties are big.

Leaning back to making Free market's penalties negative support, negative planet again. To symmetrically oppose Planned's +Support, and Green's +Planet and to make all categories represented in the penalty column. Still unsure how harsh to make it, have to test more. Free Market has been my bane, lol. I think I've altered that SE more than all others combined.

[EmpathCrawler]

It would have been interesting if the future SEs had unique benefits/penalties. Some of them feel more like Politics choices. Like what is Democratic / Orwellian... (vote to be oppressed?) Police State / Utopian (maybe Yang would agree?) ... Fundamentalist / AI Control (is AI your new god?). There's probably better original ideas out there... I did like the Bioengineered one someone had. Where your population is becoming Planet/Human hybrids (at least as I interpreted it). I'd be interested in any other original future SE ideas others have.

I'm ok with early SE choices not having much synergy with the later ones. Narratively and design-wise it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Believers to win by Transcendence! Conquest is the earliest achievable victory so I'm ok with some early SE choices designed around giving the conquest-oriented factions the tools for rapid victory while the other choices are for their would be victims to build up and survive the onslaught.

In chronological order, the victory types go Conquest-->Economic/Diplomatic-->Transcendence. Of course Economic is very strange and needs fixing, but six of the original factions map onto that order very well: Spartans/Believers-->Morgan/Lal-->Deidre/Zak. I think that's when those factions should "peak" so to speak? Yang is a wildcard with his efficiency immunity giving him the PS/Planned superpower plus his free perimeter defenses giving him early game staying power. He's always a threat.

I've thought about this a lot in the last 20 years or so, lol.

Yea I might do some tinkering yet to make the Future SEs come just a little earlier. They are very powerful though, they allow factions with penalties and aversions to break those weaknesses. So I didn't really want that to be present for most of the game. They fuel a very fast endgame though I have done some things to mitigate that such as putting Cloning Vats and Satellites onto endgame techs. Maybe try them at +3/+3/+3/-3 to make them more dramatic. I had done more extreme SEs in the past but found the AI started to struggle especially if the penalties are big.

Maybe the endgame should accelerate, though! You're given access to all of sorts of powerful modifiers and planetbusters. At that point it's sink or swim. Either achieve transcendence or subjugate everyone before they have the chance.

Leaning back to making Free market's penalties negative support, negative planet again. To symmetrically oppose Planned's +Support, and Green's +Planet and to make all categories represented in the penalty column. Still unsure how harsh to make it, have to test more. Free Market has been my bane, lol. I think I've altered that SE more than all others combined.

If you're going to have Free Market the key to achieve +2 ECONOMY then I don't think it should be possible to achieve zero or positive PLANET. Free Market is the ultimate F U to Planet. You should have to suffer more from ecodamage and psy attack and fungus should be economically worthless to you. +2 ECONOMY is also extremely powerful in the hands of the player so how do you balance it so you're not simply buying the world? I don't know!

[Nexii]

Yea +2 ECON is the strongest benefit for sure. I am testing out FM at -2 SUPPORT and -2 PLANET. -2 SUPPORT because in a free market the government doesn't get any deals on military equipment, it's all made by for-profit industries. -2 PLANET is just obvious as you said. I find the AI is more willing to stay in FM sometimes in war, with MORALE taken out. Though it does favor Planned more in those situations which is okay. I feel like this is 'about right' for the downside, significant but not extreme.

I renamed Wealth to Prosperity since in this set it's more about population well-being (+2 GROWTH) than industrial infrastructure. It's much like the 'Socialism' some put into economics tier but more of a values equivalent. Thus you can sort of have socialism with any economic system. Values are more about what you focus on with surplus resources (military, research, or social spending). It still fits Sparta to be aversive to Prosperity, they don't believe in the weak receiving charity. Cult not so much, but I put them to be Democratic averse instead. Could see Cult also being FM averse but trying to set them apart from Gaia too.

The endgame being fast is mostly okay I guess. The thing at the end is the velocity of war really picks up. Units get faster, drop pods, air units, gravships, monorails, etc all make it much faster for conquest factions to try to win by conquering. So techs being faster isn't entirely a bad thing. I do feel like Utopian is a bit better than the other 2 future SEs but it also comes last.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,  ++PROBE,   -EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,   +INDUSTRY, -POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH,  +MORALE,   --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, --SUPPORT, --PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, ++SUPPORT, +INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,   -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE,  +PROBE,    --GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH,+PLANET,   --POLICE
Prosperity,      AdapEco, ++GROWTH,  +ECONOMY,  --MORALE
None,            None,
AI Controlled,   DigSent, ++INDUSTRY,++SUPPORT, ++EFFIC,  ---PROBE
Utopian,         Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH,++GROWTH, ---POLICE
Orwellian,       WillPow, ++POLICE,  ++PROBE,   ++MORALE, ---RESEARCH

[EmpathCrawler]

Cult is presumably Wealth-averse because Free Market is useless to them without it and it additionally prevents them from getting a positive Industry score before future societies. Story-wise, it doesn't make sense for them to prioritize human-oriented energy or mineral production in any way given their xenophilic attitude.