Changes to the Social Engineering models

[JarlWolf]

Police State in this format would actually work well with the Believers as they get the probe bonus... the -5 Research seems horribly definitive of making the faction that chooses it (especially believers) have to be war mongers...

[Nexii]

-5 RESEARCH is also the least possible.  So if you're Believers, there's less penalty to Fundamentalism in a sense also.

+3 PROBE from PS will max out anyone but University.  Of course I do agree, Believers might need PS more to go on a tech steal rampage.

I also changed -POLICE in Anarchy to -GROWTH, as -2 POLICE was quite problematic for Gaians.

[Nexii]

I doubt many are following this but I did some more minor tweaks.  With flat unit costing, I was really underestimating how good MORALE SE becomes.

- Fundamentalism weakened to +1 SUP
- Planned increased to +2 GROWTH
- Green penalty lessened to -1 IND
- Power changed to +2 SUP and -2 IND (closer to original)
- Eudaimonic lessened to +2 GROWTH

This brings back the Demo/Planned 'easy' boom although it is much more difficult to drone control with low police and energy.  Demo/FM with luxury based GA is still preferred.  And booming in general requires a Creche, and Knowledge or Power to get out of Survival.

#SOCIO
ECONOMY, EFFIC, SUPPORT, TALENT, MORALE, POLICE, GROWTH, PLANET, PROBE, INDUSTRY, RESEARCH
ECONOMY, EFFIC, SUPPORT, TALENT, MORALE, POLICE, GROWTH, PLANET, PROBE, INDUSTRY, RESEARCH
Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Anarchy,         None,    -MORALE,-PROBE
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,-EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, +EFFIC,++GROWTH,+RESEARCH,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Traditional,     None,    -INDUSTRY,-EFFIC
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,---PLANET,--SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,++GROWTH,---ECONOMY,-EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,+EFFIC,-INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    -GROWTH,-PLANET
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-EFFIC,--INDUSTRY
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,--PROBE,-MORALE
Wealth,          IndAuto, +ECONOMY,+INDUSTRY,--GROWTH
Primitive,       None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,--SUPPORT
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,+PLANET,---MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,++INDUSTRY,-EFFIC,-GROWTH

[vonbach]

I have my own personal mod I'm always playing with. Right now its as follows.
Police State. ++Probe or support ++Police -Effic(because it makes sense and I like playing something other than Democracy sometimes.)
Democracy +Effic ++Growth --Support (Because  Democracy as it was is OP)
Fundamentalism is the biggest change and the one I'm always fiddling with.
+Morale +Growth + Effic -Probe  (I might try ++Growth +Morale + Probe --Support or Effic)
Free Market ++Econ ---Planet
Planned ++Growth +Industry -Effic.
Green ++Effic ++Planet --Growth -Industry
Power ++Support ++Morale -Planet (I felt -Industry was too crippling)
Knowledge unchanged
Wealth +Industry +Economy ---Police.

I moved grav tanks down to Planetary Economics simply because I wanted to see more of them.

[Yitzi]

Police State in this format would actually work well with the Believers as they get the probe bonus... the -5 Research seems horribly definitive of making the faction that chooses it (especially believers) have to be war mongers...

Or just probe+industry...I think what really encourages the Believers to be warmongers is that their bonuses and preferred social ideology work so well with it.

[Nexii]

Fundamentalism is meant to be the 'war' SE isn't it?  I guess that's debatable too.  I had Police State more as for spying/control, than necessarily being aggressive.
But yea I'd say Probe isnt all that useful for war in general.  Morale, Industry, and Support matter a lot more.   Which is sort of something I don't like about Power (-Industry really runs counter to that).  So I still have to rebalance my set some, I feel.  I had -GROWTH or -ECONOMY as possibilities.

Believers I found got a pretty good boost with free armor modding.  Being able to punch through troops with their +25% attack becomes a lot more relevant.  Though -2 RES is really painful early when all weapons/armor cost the same.  I made Probes a bit earlier (Info Networks) to compensate somewhat.  Believers can definitely expand well, +2 SUP is very helpful as a builder.

This is what I've been playing with lately, anyways.  I think it makes for some tougher decisions at each tier.

Anarchy,         None,    -MORALE,-PROBE
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,-EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, +EFFIC,++GROWTH,+RESEARCH,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Traditional,     None,    -INDUSTRY,-EFFIC
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,---PLANET,--SUPPORT
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,++GROWTH,---ECONOMY,-EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,--INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    -GROWTH,-PLANET
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC,--GROWTH
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,--PROBE,-SUPPORT
Wealth,          IndAuto, +ECONOMY,+INDUSTRY,---MORALE
Primitive,       None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-SUPPORT,-MORALE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,-INDUSTRY
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,++INDUSTRY,-EFFIC,-GROWTH

[Yitzi]

Fundamentalism is meant to be the 'war' SE isn't it?  I guess that's debatable too.  I had Police State more as for spying/control, than necessarily being aggressive.

I see it as Democracy for peacetime, Fundamentalism for war against a fairly well-matched enemy, and Police State for conquering someone substantially weaker than you.

But yea I'd say Probe isnt all that useful for war in general.

If, however, it were possible to subvert a stack of more than one unit, then I think it would be a lot more useful, since subversion cost depends a lot on distance from the owner's HQ.

Morale, Industry, and Support matter a lot more.   Which is sort of something I don't like about Power (-Industry really runs counter to that).

True; I think the idea is that the SUPPORT is supposed to more than make up for it, but SUPPORT becomes a lot less significant later in the game.  If, however, you play with the mod that more expensive units cost more support and also change unit cost so that the support for a single unit remains around (or more than) 10% of a typical base's output, then it should become more viable.

[Nexii]

Ok then I think I have the top three fairly well balanced.  Democracy is really hard to run during war.  Definitely more fixes to PROBE would make it more relevant, its probably the least important SE since fixes to others.  PS maybe not so much for the conquering itself as in the time after to control the population.  I think PS also for large empires (since once you get a lot of B-drones, facilities and luxuries get very costly).

SUPPORT stays relevant also with flat unit costs since the ratio stays the same.  I think as well, Clean does eat up a slot which matters more when unit abilities are costed at 0.  All this can be tweaked though.

The only issue I tend to have is Planned/Green switching for SP completion.  Do you have any timeline on when minerals may scale as a % when changing IND?  It's not the biggest exploit but I still consider it one.

[Yitzi]

Ok then I think I have the top three fairly well balanced.  Democracy is really hard to run during war.  Definitely more fixes to PROBE would make it more relevant, its probably the least important SE since fixes to others.  PS maybe not so much for the conquering itself as in the time after to control the population.  I think PS also for large empires (since once you get a lot of B-drones, facilities and luxuries get very costly).

SUPPORT stays relevant also with flat unit costs since the ratio stays the same.  I think as well, Clean does eat up a slot which matters more when unit abilities are costed at 0.

The thing is, with flat unit costs, unit support costs won't increase, so past a certain point, the extra 2 free supported units simply don't represent such a significant part of your production.

The only issue I tend to have is Planned/Green switching for SP completion.  Do you have any timeline on when minerals may scale as a % when changing IND?  It's not the biggest exploit but I still consider it one.

Probably a few patches down the line, unless it's nominated and voted on before that; I've had a lot going on lately, which is why the current patch is taking a while.  (It's an important one, though, as it's going to allow SMAX to be played as if it were SMAC.)

[Nexii]

That's true, and as much as a problem with SUP in general as with scaling up costs.  Later game you could argue that between -3 SUP and +2 SUP isn't much difference.  There's other issues there too, like that a lot of more expensive units aren't worth it (expensive terraformers, military units versus native life).  However I found that when playing with higher ecodamages (0 clean, 1000 ecodamage div, and 4 mineral divisor, rest defaults), it's very difficult to have high M production now anyways.  Very difficult to go mass forest.  Until midgame most bases will be 10 minerals or less, so SUP also can put an overall limiter on your army size in addition to just the ongoing costs.  I mod a lot else too, cheaper earlier facilities, lower FOP in general especially advanced terraforming.  It often felt like beelines to advanced terraforming, unlocks of caps, and weather paradigm were too mandatory.  Also I like a game that isn't quite so former/crawler micro heavy.  Granted I still am testing a lot of things...even relatively balancing the SEs is tricky.  A small increase or decrease to an SE can make it useless or mandatory also.

[Yitzi]

That's true, and as much as a problem with SUP in general as with scaling up costs.  Later game you could argue that between -3 SUP and +2 SUP isn't much difference.  There's other issues there too, like that a lot of more expensive units aren't worth it (expensive terraformers, military units versus native life).

I don't think that's such an issue if you play with multibuild.

However I found that when playing with higher ecodamages (0 clean, 1000 ecodamage div, and 4 mineral divisor, rest defaults), it's very difficult to have high M production now anyways.

Really?  If you go Green, it should be fairly manageable, I think.  Even 30 minerals (quite a bit more than is safe with unmodded ecodamage unless you have quite a number of ecological facilities) contributes only 1.5 ecodamage, assuming Green, Transcend, standard native life, no perihilion, 40 techs, and a centauri preserve.  That should be fairly manageable (at least if you set global warming frequency low enough to avoid problems there).

Of course, a mineral-heavy strategy with Free Market is going to be begging for trouble...

Very difficult to go mass forest.  Until midgame most bases will be 10 minerals or less, so SUP also can put an overall limiter on your army size in addition to just the ongoing costs.  I mod a lot else too, cheaper earlier facilities, lower FOP in general especially advanced terraforming.  It often felt like beelines to advanced terraforming, unlocks of caps, and weather paradigm were too mandatory.  Also I like a game that isn't quite so former/crawler micro heavy.  Granted I still am testing a lot of things...even relatively balancing the SEs is tricky.  A small increase or decrease to an SE can make it useless or mandatory also.

Ok...I actually feel like advanced terraforming doesn't need to be nerfed so heavily, as it comes with a fairly heavy cost in terms of formers required.  Of course, FOP booster techs are very important, but so are production/energy multipliers, more advanced weaponry/armor/chasses, most special abilities, secret projects, etc.

Still, if you come up with a mod that you think is just what's needed but isn't possible, feel free to suggest it; if I agree with your assessment, I'll probably even fast-track it.

[Nexii]

Yea I just didn't want Green to be the sole viable SE option.  By default FM pollutes 6x the rate so pretty much any solar/echelon setup will pollute the same as a Green forest/borehole.  They're pretty close I feel actually in this set; -2 IND is a much steeper penalty on Green.  And I think it makes more sense, Green shouldn't get as much net production out of borehole/forest.

I didn't want the game to be about making more than 2-3 formers a base mainly because of Weather Paradigm.  Since it's +50% forming rate, at higher former count it's just too crucial for something mostly based on early game luck.  Granted, you can just increase WP cost and I do a bit.

I should clarify: I think FOP scaling up is fine and all, and actually preferable with a non-linear tech curve.  I just think less of it should be necessarily tied to making former swarms.  I'd rather see more FOP gains tied to facilities.  Mainly to smooth out solar/borehole/mines.  Forest and sea have this already.  The other benefit is that it might encourage some more production specialization.  The problem I find is that is most advanced facilities actually give less benefit than cheaper early ones, because they add a similar multiplier on the base production.  Percentage wise they actually give even less marginal benefit.  I guess that might be difficult though as facility modding was understood to be difficult.  Even tying increases to techs would be really good, like the cap unlocks.

[Yitzi]

Yea I just didn't want Green to be the sole viable SE option.  By default FM pollutes 6x the rate so pretty much any solar/echelon setup will pollute the same as a Green forest/borehole.

The idea, I think, is that if you want to go heavy on minerals, Green is your best option, but FM is still better for energy-focused play...and Planned is great for growth.

I didn't want the game to be about making more than 2-3 formers a base mainly because of Weather Paradigm.  Since it's +50% forming rate, at higher former count it's just too crucial for something mostly based on early game luck.  Granted, you can just increase WP cost and I do a bit.

Yes, I think that increasing project costs across the board is probably a good idea.

But yes...now that you mention it, the WP seems to be too powerful when combined with high-end terraforming...perhaps if it only granted a boost to basic terraforming, i.e. that which is available at the start of the game?

I should clarify: I think FOP scaling up is fine and all, and actually preferable with a non-linear tech curve.  I just think less of it should be necessarily tied to making former swarms.  I'd rather see more FOP gains tied to facilities.  Mainly to smooth out solar/borehole/mines.  Forest and sea have this already.  The other benefit is that it might encourage some more production specialization.  The problem I find is that is most advanced facilities actually give less benefit than cheaper early ones, because they add a similar multiplier on the base production.  Percentage wise they actually give even less marginal benefit.  I guess that might be difficult though as facility modding was understood to be difficult.  Even tying increases to techs would be really good, like the cap unlocks.

Actually, facility modding would not be that difficult...however, the fact that advanced facilities give less benefit than cheaper ones is probably good, as it means that the order of development in a base will tend to be roughly the same order as development in the tech tree.

As for not needing a lot of former use...I think that's what forests and (somewhat later in the game) fungus are meant to be used for.  But of course the approach that doesn't need formers needs to give less than the one that does, or else everybody'd use it.

Although the option of a low-former low-mineral terraforming pattern does have some appeal...I'll have to think about it.

[vonbach]

I've been playing with my personal mod a bit.
Police State ++Police ++Support -Effic
Democracy ++Effic ++Growth --Police
Fundamentalism +Morale ++Growth +Support -Effic (wanted this to be a middle road alternative to the other two)
Free market ++Economy ---Planet
Planned ++Growth +Industry -Effic
Green ++Planet ++Effic --Growth
Power ++Morale ++Support ++Probe --Industry (placed +probe here because it was the only place that made real sense)
Knowledge ++Effic ++Knowledge --Probe
Wealth +Economy +Industry ---Police

Moved the grav tanks down the tech tree just so i could see them more.
I upped the value of the mine squares nutrient output like someone suggested and
it certainly seems to help the AI.
What does everyone think.

[Nexii]

Looks quite balanced.  Values tier is more powerful but amongst them it would be a difficult choice.  Personally I think PROBE befits Police State even more than Power, but that's just my take.

I've found with higher ecodamage modding, the -SUP on FM was harsh, and Green was a bit too good.  Granted I play with cheap MWs and you can use the free maintenance in fungus to your advantage a lot.  That and faster terraforming, the -SUP isn't quite as big a deal to go advanced terraforming with Green.

This is what I have lately.  Cyber got bonuses/penalty similar to CyCon.  Demo went back to its +2 EFFIC, made Knowledge more focused to research (+3).  The later SEs do give less, but a lot of the time they help you max out a SE category which is powerful.

Anarchy,         None,    -MORALE,-PROBE
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,-EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,++GROWTH,-----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
Traditional,     None,    -INDUSTRY,-EFFIC,-SUPPORT
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,++GROWTH,---ECONOMY,-EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,--INDUSTRY,--SUPPORT
Survival,        None,    -GROWTH,-PLANET
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC,--GROWTH
Knowledge,       Cyber,   +++RESEARCH,--PROBE,-SUPPORT
Wealth,          IndAuto, +ECONOMY,+INDUSTRY,---MORALE
Primitive,       None,    None
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,-INDUSTRY,-MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,++INDUSTRY,-EFFIC,-SUPPORT