Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Skyagusta]

Looking for some suggestions for my Social Engineering table-

Politics, Economics, Values, Society
Primitive,       None,    +POLICE
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC
Democracy,       Psych,   ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --POLICE, -SUPPORT
Theocracy,       Brain,   ++PROBE, +SUPPORT, +MORALE, -RESEARCH
Barter,          None,    -EFFIC
Free Trade,      IndAuto, ++ECONOMY, ---PLANET, --MORALE
Planned,         IndEcon, ++GROWTH,  +INDUSTRY,  --EFFIC
Green,           AlphCen, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC, --GROWTH, -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    -GROWTH
Junta,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE, ++SUPPORT, -RESEARCH, -INDUSTRY
Knowledge,       Chemist, ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC, --PROBE, ---POLICE
Wealth,          BioMac,  +ECONOMY, +INDUSTRY, -SUPPORT, ---MORALE
Primitive,       None,    None
Cybernetic,      OptComp, ++EFFIC, +INDUSTRY, --PROBE, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      CentGen, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY, +PLANET, ---POLICE
Thought Control, HomoSup, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, ++MORALE, --RESEARCH

I'm basically trying to balance a variety of different approaches while giving each a significant drawback or two. For example, trying to maximize energy will result in strong mineral penalties. Maxing warmongering effects will result in energy and research lagging behind. Going full research means your probe rating will be in the basement. Also trying to keep everything in the same ballpark as realistic if possible.

I like the above idea of improving PS/Planned. I think the biggest drawback of Planned is not running FM or Green, therefore it should probably get a decent boost. PS I also feel is underpowered as a mid-game option. Maybe reduce Planned EFFIC penalty to 1 and change PS to - or --GROWTH? Would love to get any suggestions.

[JarlWolf]

Well under a planned system, that is generally under consensus of a more Socialist approach to economic development, planned economic decisions with carefully monitored and regulated government programs.... instead of relying on private enterprise and individual interest with market competition.

It shouldn't limit growth because under such a system population growth would be encouraged and properly supported, families being supported by state programs. So it makes sense to keep growth bonus...

If you are looking for a bit of a problem with Planned.... maybe -1 research, and either remove the efficiency penalty altogether or reduce it to a -1. The reasoning for that is that Planned systems, while they CAN be inefficient, they can also be very efficient. It really just depends on the management; if you take Socialist system in Sweden its very efficient with the economic sector, or if you took economic improvements within Poland, Ukraine or parts of European Russia within former Soviet Union industrial progress was almost explosive in growth and produced high amounts of material and goods. But on the flip side you might have inefficiencies due to management/tensions, such as in East Germany...


The research penalty comes from bureaucracies or worker controlled focuses deviating from technological development/competition and more focusing on upgrading and expanding industry- especially since such systems often ignore consumerist style demands of comfort and other such things and make vehicles and equipment more based on function then other elements.

So, how should that look?
2+ Growth, 1+Industry, -1 Research or -1 Research/ -1 Efficiency, and if you have both maybe bump up Industry to 2+.

Just a thought on that one there-

[Geo]

I feel minus research doesn't automatically follow  in a Planned society, Jarlwolf. To take your Swedish example, I don't think there's anything inferior with their education system or research advances. Heck, it's almost the only mostly neutral country in the world that can keep up with advanced military tech compared to world powers.

[Skyagusta]

Thanks JarlWolf for the indepth analysis. I like the idea of -RESEARCH and -EFFIC for Planned. ++IND is a little too strong though.... Maybe +3 Growth instead?

[JarlWolf]

I feel minus research doesn't automatically follow  in a Planned society, Jarlwolf. To take your Swedish example, I don't think there's anything inferior with their education system or research advances. Heck, it's almost the only mostly neutral country in the world that can keep up with advanced military tech compared to world powers.

And there was nothing wrong with education or sciences within the former Soviet Union either Geo. Matter of fact, we were leaders of the space race... but the issue was that on a domestic, and sometimes industrial level technological improvements did not occur as rapidly as they would in the United States due to either bureaucracy or lack of interest in those sectors. Edit: Or how to better phrase it, poor management. Of course this was not universal everywhere- its just a matter of how good the operation is setup...

Thanks JarlWolf for the indepth analysis. I like the idea of -RESEARCH and -EFFIC for Planned. ++IND is a little too strong though.... Maybe +3 Growth instead?

No, too much growth is uncanny of a Planned system, its all supposed to be rather controlled.

Thinking on it more-

I would put it like this:

2+Growth, 1+Industry, 1+ Support, with -1 Planet, -1 Efficiency.

Reasons: Family growth is encouraged, state programs are there to help.

Industry is vitalized, improved and expanded by state sponsored programs.

The 1+ support is from the general populace giving to society either through communal participation and taxation/sharing of resources.

The -1 Efficiency is from the re-distribution of wealth and maintaining such a public system.

Planned systems often, but not always, have massive amounts of industrialization that can drastically change an environment, for better or worse.
In  Alpha Centauri, AI against Planned will say its pollutive as well...

The research penalty, thinking upon it, would go better with more authoritarian mindsets such as Police or Power. The focus isn't creative thinking or research, but rather security, control, or the army. Of course one could counter again and say that research for military applications would be better... but not overall perhaps.

[Skyagusta]

I like it. Here's my new settings-

Politics, Economics, Values, Society
Primitive,       None,    +POLICE
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, -RESEARCH, -ECONOMY
Democracy,       Psych,   ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --POLICE, -SUPPORT
Theocracy,       Brain,   ++PROBE, +SUPPORT, +MORALE, -RESEARCH
Barter,          None,    -EFFIC
Free Trade,      IndAuto, ++ECONOMY, ---PLANET, --MORALE
Planned,         IndEcon, ++GROWTH,  +INDUSTRY,  -EFFIC, -PLANET
Green,           AlphCen, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC, --GROWTH, -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    -GROWTH
Junta,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE, ++SUPPORT, -RESEARCH, -INDUSTRY
Knowledge,       Chemist, ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC, --PROBE, ---POLICE
Wealth,          BioMac,  +ECONOMY, +INDUSTRY, -SUPPORT, ---MORALE
Primitive,       None,    None
Cybernetic,      OptComp, ++EFFIC, +INDUSTRY, +RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      CentGen, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY, +PLANET, --POLICE
Thought Control, HomoSup, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, ++MORALE, --RESEARCH

I think this strengthens PS/Planned adequately, especially in the early game. +2 Support, +2 Police, +2 Growth, +Industry, -Research, -Efficiency, -Planet, -Econ. That is a pretty powerful early game set up, albeit with energy drawbacks (exactly what I'm looking for).

Anything else in my settings that look over/underpowered? I have noticed the AIs use Demo/FM/Wealth ALOT more than in standard SMAC, which means even tech or energy impaired factions can generate some serious cash and breakthroughs in 5 turns or less. Of course, I also modded all the factions to pacifist (exceptions Yang, Miriam, Santiago, Aliens). I find myself trying to instigate wars between AIs just so I can catch up.

Another thing I've noticed is that Domai tends to run Planned/Wealth/Cyber (+5 industry!) and he runs away with many games (can build SPs like nobody's business). Thinking of maybe giving him aversion Wealth or removing industry bonus from Cybernetic. But concerned that this would nerf Cybernetic too much relative to Eudaimonic.

Edit- Forgot to say, thanks JarlWolf for your excellent suggestions. Exactly what I was looking for.

[JarlWolf]

No problem... though I don't think you strengthened planned: wasn't it -1 efficiency, 2+growth, 1+industry to begin with? Tacking on -1 planet makes sense but it doesn't offer a counterbalance... unless my memory is sparse again...

Maybe adding 1+ support might equal it out? (Unless my memory is not right on the stats of said policy.)

[Skyagusta]

Well it was -2 EFFIC to begin with (I thought...). Ha, I'm confused. I like the +support to Planned but I'm trying to not have more than four effects on any one thing.

What do you think about this?

Police State- +3 Police, +2 Support, -1 Research, -1 Economy
Planned- +2 Growth, +1 Industry, +1 Support, -2 Efficiency

Your energy production would take a serious hit, but that is one STRONG choice for the early game. Max Police, max Support, +1 Industry and +2 Growth? Who needs energy credits? The problem is, would AI momentum factions demolish the builder factions every game? And I would need to change Thought Control as this would make it totally obsolete.

Decisions, decisions.

[JarlWolf]

I would still go the route of 1- planet, -1 effic, just so you got a variety of problems with strong bonuses.
But that is just my opinion.

[Geo]

Police State and Junta look a bit too similar in your social engineering setup, Skyagusta.

[Skyagusta]

Agreed. Suggestions?

[Yitzi]

Agreed. Suggestions?

I think that your problem is that "Junta" is a government type, and thus would belong under politics rather than values, and in fact it's close to a police state.  Replace it with "Militarism", and then replace the -RESEARCH (which does not fit with a militaristic focus) with -EFFIC (or --EFFIC).

[Buster's Uncle]

Nationalism is a value, and usually goes with militarism and junta politics...

[JarlWolf]

I would rename Junta (which was power before if I remember) to militarism as well. A junta means you have a government type where its controlled by a variety of generals and commanders....

But if you are looking for a word for military leadership (that isn't a fractured bunch of generals) you are looking for stratocracy. However, why the name change from Power?

[Skyagusta]

Well I didn't start messing with the SE table until after I began using the Smaniac Mod. It made extensive changes to the SE table (including Junta).

Lately I'm seeing more AI factions than I would like sticking with the default SE choices late into the game, so I'm adding a few more penalties there. I'd like to slow down the early game anyway. Latest iteration:

Politics, Economics, Values, Society
Primitive,       None,    +POLICE, --EFFIC
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, -GROWTH, -ECONOMY
Democracy,       Psych,   ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --POLICE, -SUPPORT
Theocracy,       Brain,   ++PROBE, +SUPPORT, +MORALE, -RESEARCH
Barter,          None,    --GROWTH, -ECONOMY
Free Market,     IndAuto, ++ECONOMY, ---PLANET, --MORALE
Planned,         IndEcon, ++GROWTH,  +INDUSTRY,  -EFFIC, -PLANET
Green,           AlphCen, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC, --GROWTH, -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,    +MORALE, --RESEARCH
Militarism,      MilAlg,  ++MORALE, ++SUPPORT, -EFFIC, -INDUSTRY
Knowledge,       Chemist, ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC, --PROBE, ---POLICE
Wealth,          BioMac,  +ECONOMY, +INDUSTRY, -SUPPORT, ---MORALE
Primitive,       None,    -PLANET
Cybernetic,      OptComp, ++EFFIC, +INDUSTRY, +RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      CentGen, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY, +PLANET, --POLICE
Thought Control, HomoSup, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, ++MORALE, --RESEARCH

So starting out all factions have +POLICE, +MORALE (helps AIs with drone and worm problems, which can prevent them from getting off the ground for long periods), --EFFIC, --GROWTH, --RESEARCH, and -ECONOMY. Hopefully this will push most AIs into making some kind of choice for each area.

Can't decide on whether to make Police State +3 Police and change out Thought Control. I basically never see AIs using TC and I don't either. But I'd rather have more than one option for increasing your Police rating. Could give a +1 Police to militarism.