Probe Team Action to Balance Out Satellites

[testdummy653]

This quote by Yitzi from State of SMAC thread started a discussion about Probe Team actions.
I "moved" this discussion out because it really didn't match the topic of the other thread.

That said, I think that 2, 5, and 6 (crawlers, specialists, satellites) actually might be better if they're there but somewhat weakened and/or easier to counter; you get richer strategy when powerful options come with significant costs as well.

I always thought it would be nice if a probe team had the option to take down/take over another faction's satellite net. The probe team could only do that in the HQ of a faction.

I think the crawler have a pretty easy counter if you focus some military on destroying them.

I don't think crawlers are overpowered, but rather rightly priced.  30 minerals to harvest 1 square seems fair (where a colony pod can harvest 2 squares and get other benefits for the same cost).  Crawlers are also very vulnerable to combat, particularly air units, and can be subverted.

Specialists also do not seem overpowered.  Until late game, you get at most 5 energy for a specialist, whereas in midgame your workers are typically getting 3/2/3.

Satellites are pretty expensive.  Yes, they provide a global benefit, but each satellite costs a lot.  Also, sats can be targetted by other players.  Still, if you want to weaken sats, make them only give half resources to each base regardless of whether you have an Areospace complex or not.  As for the probe team, it should only be able to affect a single sat, not the entire sat network at one time, if such a thing were implemented.

Satellites are expensive (unless you get Space Elevator, and then they take one turn).

We'll I was thinking one would have to pay large some of EC to take the entire sat network.

Edit: Space Elevator - Doubles minerals used for satellite creation

There is no way that one probe action, regardless of the cost, should be able to take control of 20+ sats in one action.  A sat is very expensive; subverting a single sat with a probe team is MORE than enough.

Why not? You can take a base in one action . I think your right about  the whole sat network, but I would think one satellite is way to low. Maybe a random amount (1-5) and random type would work?

OK, lets just make a probe team action that subverts some random number of enemy units, or even enemy cities.

Just as you can only subvert a single unit with a probe team action, you should only be able to subvert a single sat.  One sat is plenty of reward.

[testdummy653]

OK, lets just make a probe team action that subverts some random number of enemy units, or even enemy cities.

Just as you can only subvert a single unit with a probe team action, you should only be able to subvert a single sat.  One sat is plenty of reward.

But if your goal is to do damage to the entire sat network, you have to do the same action over and over again just to take down 1 satellite every time (With good mineral production your opponent is probably easily  replacing them).

[BFG]

Alternatively, you could allow a Probe Team action to take over the entire satellite net...but only for a limited number of turns (say, 1 to 5).

[Yitzi]

If balance is the only concern, making orbital defense pods easier to get than other satellites should do that job nicely.

[testdummy653]

If balance is the only concern, making orbital defense pods easier to get than other satellites should do that job nicely.

I like that idea!

[Earthmichael]

I also like this idea for a different reason: to defend againt Planet Busters.

Most of the time, Planet Busters get research around 20 or so turns before orbital defense pods become available.  This creates a window where an enemy case create massive damage before you have the tech to build any defenses.

[testdummy653]

I also like this idea for a different reason: to defend againt Planet Busters.

Most of the time, Planet Busters get research around 20 or so turns before orbital defense pods become available.  This creates a window where an enemy case create massive damage before you have the tech to build any defenses.

This can also be a good reason why probe team shouldn't be able to take out the entire satellite network.

[Yitzi]

I also like this idea for a different reason: to defend againt Planet Busters.

Most of the time, Planet Busters get research around 20 or so turns before orbital defense pods become available.  This creates a window where an enemy case create massive damage before you have the tech to build any defenses.

Yeah, that's another benefit.

I feel that one of the principal rules of having an interesting and strategic game is that everything that can be defended against should have the defense available before it is (or, in the early game, shortly after is ok due to travel time); anything that cannot be effectively defended against should be available only in the endgame if it exists at all.

SMAC fits that rule pretty well; the only real exceptions are air units, planet busters, satellites (stretching "defense" to include "prevent a completely overwhelming economic advantage"), and a few weapons (missile, probably chaos gun, and maybe fusion laser.)  And nerve gas.