The State of SMAC 2

[BFG]

Several great ideas being floated around here.  Personally, one extension of SMAX I'd love to see is the opportunity for a fully-teched-out group of human factions to attempt to defend Planet against a fully powered Usurper or Caretaker fleet - in other words, the aliens' successful contact with their homeworld does not automatically mean an end to the "human age" on Planet.

But I also love the idea of expanding to other planets in the Centauri system, some of the other Manifold worlds, or returning to a postapocalyptic Earth (which perhaps has one small "native" faction still alive).  MULTIPLANET civilization building?  Absolutely.

(Edited due to failure by the forums' vulgarity filters.)

[JarlWolf]

I've seen some things mentioned that a spiritual successor to SMAC/SMAX should have, but you all forgot one major thing.
A hostile environment with lifeforms that want to kill you. In Alpha Centauri you have Planet, or Chiron is what its actual name is if I recall right. And on this planet is the Planetmind, which is a sentient planet wide nervous system which is prevalent in the vast majority, if not all of the planet's life. And this sentient mind is distrustful of foreign agents and treats them like a body's white blood cells treat a foreign agent in the body.

Mindworms, etc. If the spiritual successor is going to be indeed what it is titled, it also has to have a hostile world. Maybe not a sentient, hive mind like planet god, but something to seriously pose a threat and the certain factions that can harness such powers to their benefit (Like how the Gaians and Voice factions capture and train mind worms and other native lifeforms.)

[Earthmichael]

What I would prefer rather than a spiritual successor is for the stratetic factors that made SMAC such a great game to be propogated to other 4x games.

It blows my mind that we could have 3 sequels to Civ after SMAC, and not one of them is even close to being as stratetic as SMAC.  This goes for the other 4x games since SMAC as well.

[Yitzi]

What I would prefer rather than a spiritual successor is for the stratetic factors that made SMAC such a great game to be propogated to other 4x games.

It blows my mind that we could have 3 sequels to Civ after SMAC, and not one of them is even close to being as stratetic as SMAC.  This goes for the other 4x games since SMAC as well.

What are those factors?

[Earthmichael]

I listed 6 factors in an earlier post on this thread, but I am sure that there are other important factors that I overlooked.

[Yitzi]

I listed 6 factors in an earlier post on this thread, but I am sure that there are other important factors that I overlooked.

Ah, I didn't realize those were what you meant by the strategic factors.
That said, I think that 2, 5, and 6 (crawlers, specialists, satellites) actually might be better if they're there but somewhat weakened and/or easier to counter; you get richer strategy when powerful options come with significant costs as well.

[testdummy653]

I listed 6 factors in an earlier post on this thread, but I am sure that there are other important factors that I overlooked.

Ah, I didn't realize those were what you meant by the strategic factors.
That said, I think that 2, 5, and 6 (crawlers, specialists, satellites) actually might be better if they're there but somewhat weakened and/or easier to counter; you get richer strategy when powerful options come with significant costs as well.

I always thought it would be nice if a probe team had the option to take down/take over another faction's satellite net. The probe team could only do that in the HQ of a faction.

I think the crawler have a pretty easy counter if you focus some military on destroying them.

[Earthmichael]

I don't think crawlers are overpowered, but rather rightly priced.  30 minerals to harvest 1 square seems fair (where a colony pod can harvest 2 squares and get other benefits for the same cost).  Crawlers are also very vulnerable to combat, particularly air units, and can be subverted.

Specialists also do not seem overpowered.  Until late game, you get at most 5 energy for a specialist, whereas in midgame your workers are typically getting 3/2/3.

Satellites are pretty expensive.  Yes, they provide a global benefit, but each satellite costs a lot.  Also, sats can be targetted by other players.  Still, if you want to weaken sats, make them only give half resources to each base regardless of whether you have an Areospace complex or not.  As for the probe team, it should only be able to affect a single sat, not the entire sat network at one time, if such a thing were implemented.

[testdummy653]

Satellites are pretty expensive.  Yes, they provide a global benefit, but each satellite costs a lot.  Also, sats can be targetted by other players.  Still, if you want to weaken sats, make them only give half resources to each base regardless of whether you have an Areospace complex or not.  As for the probe team, it should only be able to affect a single sat, not the entire sat network at one time, if such a thing were implemented.

Satellites are expensive (unless you get Space Elevator, and then they take one turn).

We'll I was thinking one would have to pay large some of EC to take the entire sat network.

Edit: Space Elevator - Doubles minerals used for satellite creation

[Earthmichael]

There is no way that one probe action, regardless of the cost, should be able to take control of 20+ sats in one action.  A sat is very expensive; subverting a single sat with a probe team is MORE than enough.

[testdummy653]

There is no way that one probe action, regardless of the cost, should be able to take control of 20+ sats in one action.  A sat is very expensive; subverting a single sat with a probe team is MORE than enough.

Why not? You can take a base in one action . I think your right about  the whole sat network, but I would think one satellite is way to low. Maybe a random amount (1-5) and random type would work?

[Earthmichael]

OK, lets just make a probe team action that subverts some random number of enemy units, or even enemy cities.

Just as you can only subvert a single unit with a probe team action, you should only be able to subvert a single sat.  One sat is plenty of reward.

[testdummy653]

OK, lets just make a probe team action that subverts some random number of enemy units, or even enemy cities.

Just as you can only subvert a single unit with a probe team action, you should only be able to subvert a single sat.  One sat is plenty of reward.

I disagree, and we are off topic (i would love to discuss this though... Maybe in a Probe Team discussion thread?). However we can both agree that SMAC 2 needs to be made.

[Yitzi]

I always thought it would be nice if a probe team had the option to take down/take over another faction's satellite net. The probe team could only do that in the HQ of a faction.

I agree with Earthmichael here.

I think the crawler have a pretty easy counter if you focus some military on destroying them.

Unless they're defended.  But even with a counter, they're way too cheap, at 30 minerals and no upkeep (in comparison, a worker costs 20-130 nutrients, more once you get hab domes, and has upkeep of 2 nutrients and 2 psych.)

I don't think crawlers are overpowered, but rather rightly priced.  30 minerals to harvest 1 square seems fair (where a colony pod can harvest 2 squares and get other benefits for the same cost).

Firstly, that colony pod is worth only 1 square, as you give up a population point (and thus a worker) when you build it.
More importantly, that colony pod then requires all those production-multiplying facilities you mentioned in order to get full benefit; a crawler uses the production-multiplying facilities of its home base, and is therefore better compared to another population point in that base.

Crawlers are also very vulnerable to combat, particularly air units, and can be subverted.

That still leaves them overpowered in times of peace (e.g. before contact).  Also, when the only possible responses to crawlers are to use crawlers yourself or to go to war, that leaves no room for a more worker-based builder playstyle.

Specialists also do not seem overpowered.  Until late game, you get at most 5 energy for a specialist, whereas in midgame your workers are typically getting 3/2/3.

Ok, I'll grant that; let's just agree then that advanced (4+ energy) specialists should come no earlier than Hybrid Forests (which are needed for that 3/2/3 you mentioned), and then the question of whether to move Hybrid Forests later (similar to the other similar 240-mineral facilities) is another issue.  (Before Hybrid Forests, however, 4-energy specialists are too much, since they make crawler+specialist too powerful as compared to workers.)

Satellites are pretty expensive.  Yes, they provide a global benefit, but each satellite costs a lot.  Also, sats can be targetted by other players.

Sats can't be targeted by other players until Self-Aware Machines, substantially after they can be first built.  Moving Orbital Defense Pods earlier in the tech tree and making them cheaper, and moving mineral and nutrient satellites somewhat later and making them somewhat more expensive (because those two snowball all too easily) would be all the "weakening" that would be needed.

[Earthmichael]

Firstly, that colony pod is worth only 1 square, as you give up a population point (and thus a worker) when you build it.
More importantly, that colony pod then requires all those production-multiplying facilities you mentioned in order to get full benefit; a crawler uses the production-multiplying facilities of its home base, and is therefore better compared to another population point in that base.

A worker in a city can fully harvest a square; a supply crawler can only get one resource.  They are fine for a single resource square, but most squares are better than that.  A worker can harvest 3/2/3 or 6/6 from a hybrid forest square or a borehole; a supply crawler gets only half or less of the value.

A city created by a colony pod can grow.  After 10 turns (with a 2N square available), it works 2 squares, and so on.   Furthermore, it can spawn other colony pods for more cities.  A supply crawler has no growth potental; it harvests exactly one resource, period.

However, a supply crawler can serve a strategic role.  It can harvest squares that are small gaps between cities, rather than take the ICS approach and build another city.  It can concentrate energy into a single city, perferably the HQ.  It can provide food to a base that otherwise would face starvation.  But I do not think these strategic roles in any way make it overpowered.  It is just another great tool in a thinking man's arsenal.  I would hate to see this tool removed; I would rather see the concept broadened to other 4x games!