Reimagined Original Factions

[bvanevery]

There are bugs in the stock game where sometimes certain sea units do not become available at all.  Because of this, I've made redundant predefined units as a failsafe.  Thus, my factions do reliably colonize at sea, and terraform at sea.

The basic problem of forks, is that they serve different agendas, and can mostly only promote 1 author.  I have no incentive to combine forces with anyone else, because it's my skill as a game designer that I want people to understand and talk about.  I need that for career reasons.  I intend to sell commercial products someday, maybe even a 4X TBS ala SMAC.  If I break my back doing all this work to do a good game design, I don't want that credit casually going to someone else.  I did put my work under CC-BY-NC license so that someone who really does want to do some work, can have their own go at everything, but I know that in the real world, probably no one will.

There's a huge catch-up problem with forks.  Playing any version of this game is very time consuming.  So I could do the most brilliant solution in the world, to some problem in the game.  But lots of people, for instance in this community on this website, will take forever to even try my work.  Let alone get around to the part of the game where the solution mattered.  I mean, I've got 2 years of testing into my work.  Someone who just tries it out now, is 2 years behind my own thought process on everything.  They could catch up more quickly than that, if catching up was actually their goal, but for most people that isn't a goal.  Everyone reinvents the world for themselves, and they don't necessarily reinvent exactly the same world.

Knowing these realities of open source modding work in a complex genre, I'm not going to concentrate on doing it for free in the future.  If I'm going to do "the next stage" of 4X TBS, I'm going to do it with a company, selling products for money, creating massively more players and mindshare for the work, so that people will engage my work on my terms.  To the extent that players ever do.  So that at least, my own work is the standard by which most people measure the quality of the work.

This is simply not going to happen in $0 modding.  It will always be fractured, attention will always be going in many directions.  My work, as it stands today, is likely as much impact as anyone is going to have.  And such impact as it has, may take literally years to play out.

[Nexii]

Well I can say the factions are much closer than the originals. They all have a shot to win a game which is my criteria.

University might be just a touch above the rest, though its hard to find a minor thematic penalty. Never felt -PROBE really fit them that well. Maybe -1 MORALE, -1 GROWTH instead of -2 GROWTH. Never got a strong pacifist vibe from them but it could be explained by acedemics not wanting to be soldiers, something along those lines.

Believers needed a minor early game boost, gave them +1 EC/base/turn (INTEREST, 0). -2 RESEARCH really is like two penalties. 10 turns of no research plus the 20% increased research costs. I'd argue the 10 turns of no research is often the worse penalty, early game you almost always have a huge weapons and armor disadvantage that Fanatic doesn't overcome.

There probably are a few factions the AI makes better use of than a human. I noticed watching CyCon play that the AI will still build recreation commons, hologram theatre even with punishment spheres. It may partially explain the AI's reluctance to make facilities when there is a benefit, that is it doesn't really calculate what the benefit is against making more army.

[bvanevery]

None of my factions get any penalties, let alone a -2 RESEARCH penalty, which I consider to be one of the worst penalties.  I designed my Extremist so that it would be generally unattractive to the AI factions and they wouldn't choose it.  Except the Cultists who can never have their RESEARCH go below 0.  I have consistently seen -2 RESEARCH stagnates factions and makes them easy to kill by midgame.  I do still have that penalty for Thought Control, but I think by that point in the game, it will be decided by other concerns.

[Nexii]

I don't mind faction penalties. I did try an SE set without penalties for awhile too, it wasn't so bad.

Smallest of things can make or break a faction. Punishment Spheres take your labs in half then rounds DOWN, so even with TECHCOST, 50 CyCon was getting a huge early game research penalty. I had to give them 1 RESEARCH per base because if a faction has zero research at the start of the game, then they never research anything. It was rather puzzling how a faction with +2 RESEARCH, +2 EFFIC and no drone troubles wasn't dominating every game. They may need a nerf down now but I have to simulate more games.

Lately I've been trying to think of ways to make Gaia and Cult a bit more different from one another. Maybe trying Gaia with Tree Farms and Cult with the Biology Labs. Tree Farm is quite powerful early though... it does go pretty well against Hab Limits, something that hampers early but is less meaningful later in the game

[bvanevery]

I can't even fathom the idea of giving away Tree Farms, unless you intend to start all factions midgame and give each of them distinct awsm pwrz.

[Nexii]

Gaia gets probably the worst two penalties in game. Inability to hit +2 ECON (at least without dumping a lot into PSYCH), and Hab Limits. Just one of those crushed stock Morgan and Cult from being any good. I don't think I ever saw either of those two factions win a game.

Anyways the factions are designed to be more powerful by intent. Probably all of them are a touch above stock University in terms of power level (though not by very much). University does research even faster but their downsides are much worse.

There are two I see often start well but fade by mid game: Pirates and Angels. Might just be that they're too aggressive for their own good. They're kind of in that middle ground between being builder or conquerer.

[bvanevery]

In my mod, Capitalist is only +1 ECON.  Democratic is +1 ECON, and so is Wealth.  So you need to pick 2 out of 3 of these to get your +2 ECON.  I wanted to break up the Free Market monolithic -5 POLICE penalty, as simulation-wise it's non-sensical.  Capitalists will send in pigs to break up labor strikes every time.  Democratic, Knowledge, and Cybernetic get the POLICE penalties in my mod.  That last one may not exactly fit, but there aren't that many Future Society play mechanics available.

Gaians don't have any hab limit in stock.

[Nexii]

Yea I had a bigger police penalty on democratic at one point. Though it needed to be very powerful to be worth the big -5 POLICE. Had to have about +5 in upside to be worth considering. -5 all in one was too much, especially for an early game SE when your bases are small and there's no viable counters to P-drones. I had similar, Demo, Knowledge, and Utopian (Eudaimonic) to get the negative police penalties. -1/-2/-3 respective, to increase the game goes on.

Instead of PSI benefits to Gaia and Cult I gave them both Green Impunity. I don't like to give out free impunities to everyone's agenda, but it was kind of necessary. The AI ran Simple Economics as much as Green. And that's with a lessened penalty on Green (-1 INDUSTRY modded instead of -2 GROWTH stock). Plus its more incentive to run Green as Gaia over Planned anyways. Felt a bit odd to do so.

[bvanevery]

For awhile I had Green as the notion of an actual economic model, in the sense of "Green jobs" as we hear today.  It gave +1 ECONOMY and Free Market gave +2 ECONOMY.  However I eventually decided I had to break up the Free Market gravy train and make it only +1.  That meant by contrast, Green had to lose the ECONOMY bonus.

Impunities get really boring.  I currently have a massive benefit for the Hive, "never takes a POLICE penalty".  I wonder if I overdid it.  However the Hive has not proven to be as strong an AI player as other factions, nor have I done exceptionally well as a human player with it, so for now I'm not changing it.  I'll be awaiting player feedback on it, "someday" if anyone ever pipes up.

[Nexii]

By far the most powerful benefits are free facilities from the start of the game. It's what made University miles ahead of any stock faction. And why every speedrun of the game is done as University. Giving Cult Bio Labs was too much as an example in my set. +2 labs a base might not sound like much but it really is in the early game when techs on a momentum faction matter the most. So I put them back to Rec Commons for now, a moderate benefit. Brood Pits and Centauri Preserves were considered but they do little good till the AI gets Green, which is so deep into the game they were already too far behind. Cult could maybe have Bio Labs back with stronger penalties. But as I thought about it Bio Labs seem a little too scientific for a more faith-flavored faction anyways. I might give Bio Labs to a custom faction to replace the aliens if I get around to it.

If I had to rank your factions based on power level, I'd put Gaia and University well above the rest for the same reason.

I'm guessing your Hive probably just picks Power over Knowledge most of the time even with the Impunity. Because the AI loves +MORALE so much. So the benefit doesn't really show up for the most important first-half of the game. I could see them being okay but PS at -1 JUSTICE and +2 RESEARCH is just kind of... neutral research rate at best. The AI really hates --MORALE so probably Wealth won't be taken all that much to get +2 ECONOMY. +2 ECONOMY >>> +2 RESEARCH, and its even more pronounced for AI that doesn't terraform well. Cause +1 energy on low energy squares is much more of a boost than +1 on high energy.

[bvanevery]

It's what made University miles ahead of any stock faction.

wat.

University AI kinda sucked in my mod for a long time.  Gave 'em additional free Biology Labs to try to get them up to par with others.  Then some things shifted in my tech tree, I'm not sure what, and possibly the Clean Reactors at the beginning, not sure, but they started performing much better.  So recently removed the Biology Labs again.  The University AI is not the top AI in my mod.

And why every speedrun of the game is done as University.

Somehow I never seem to be eye-to-eye with the "players who hardcore abuse stuff" set, so it's possible there's some hole in my knowledge about to further uber minimax the University.  For how I play it, and how the AI plays it, on a Huge map in my mod there's no problem.  I've wondered if someone could make it a problem, because I make a lot of the advanced research facilities available earlier than in stock.  Playtesters haven't piped up yet, with tales of "omygosh, that was so easy."

+2 labs a base might not sound like much

On the contrary, at the beginning of the game it is a far better benefit than a free Network Node.  Bio Lab gives a constant benefit regardless of LABS output.  Network Node is tied to a % of LABS output, requiring you to actually have some.  Many bases at the beginning, won't.  I actually turned Bio Labs into my Tier 1 Discovery tech, so that all factions will build Bio Labs first, Network Nodes second.  Deirdre just gets a leg up over the competition.  She wasn't tough enough and needed toughening.

Brood Pits

are stupid and shouldn't even be in the game.  It's Expansion Pack gewgaw stuff.  Super overpowered facility, handed to the Cultists for free "at some point" for no good reason, that the AI never gets to in a real game anyways.  So just becomes an uber crusher for a human player, at a time when they don't even need it.  Recently I jacked the cost and maintenance of this way up, to dissuade a human player from building it everywhere in the late game as a kind of candy.  I don't tend to outright remove things from the game unless they're beyond egregious.  I just make them a pointless investment in the real world.  If someone still wants to sandbox, they can.

and Centauri Preserves were considered but they do little good

They're important for abating eco-damage once you get eco-damage.  It may be a bad idea to have them already installed before eco-damage, because then you don't get the abatement for having built another Planet friendly facility, I think.

till the AI gets Green, which is so deep into the game

You can fix that.  I did.

Cult could maybe have Bio Labs back with stronger penalties.

Narratively, Cult should not be given scientific capabilities equal to or greater than the Gaians.  Deirdre is the xenobiolgist, not Cha Dawn.  Deirdre's only got, like, every single biology line of dialogue in the game.  Lal talks about Centauri Preserve once, that's about it.

a little too scientific for a more faith-flavored faction anyways.

Yep.  But, I gave my cult IMMUNITY to Research penalties, because they do gory things with mindworms all the time.  Pretty hands-on training about what works in the brood pits.  They tend to stay at +0 RESEARCH though.  Suits my narrative of them just fine.

If I had to rank your factions based on power level, I'd put Gaia and University well above the rest for the same reason.

That's not based on real AI play results.  Morgan and Svensgaard pretty consistently beat them.  And if the Spartans get a good enough start, they will trash neighbors.  They tend to stagnate on tech though.

I'm guessing your Hive probably just picks Power over Knowledge most of the time even with the Impunity.

I haven't paid much attention lately.  I'm more concerned that the Hive doesn't seem to be as tough as it used to be.  Since I'm currently playing them now, I'm not in much of a position to evaluate how the AI does with them.

Because the AI loves +MORALE so much. So the benefit doesn't really show up for the most important first-half of the game.

Getting to Power isn't first half in my mod.  It's more like first third.  Least it sure seems that way from my human perspective.  Power is an early midgame thing.

I could see them being okay but PS at -1 JUSTICE and +2 RESEARCH is just kind of... neutral research rate at best.

JUSTICE: PS -1, Socialist or Green +1, Power -1, net result -1.

JUSTICE: PS -1, Socialist or Green +1, Knowledge +1, net result 0.  Shouldn't be that big a deal.

The real issue I'm finding, as a human player of the Hive, is ECONOMY.  If I wanted real money before Eudaimonic, I could only do Capitalist Wealth.  I seriously doubt the AI picks that very often, although it may have happened.  And for me as a human, it's a pretty serious tradeoff to pursue that.  Now, this is all true to the original form of the Hive in stock, which has a -2 ECONOMY as a faction penalty.  The Hive isn't supposed to be a big money faction.  But lack of money, surely has to affect research rate.

I wonder if I gave the Hive AI a secondary compulsion to go for RESEARCH, if it would take the bait.  Knowledge Cybernetic is currently an awfully good deal for the Hive, as they take no POLICE penalty.

Another possibility is their pure Conquer research focus, although sounding good on paper, might not work out so well in practice.  They're a merely Erratic faction, not Aggressive, so Conquer may not do them much good.

Similar problem with the Data Angels maybe.  They go gangbusters with tech at the beginning, then stall out.  Pure Conquer focus may not be helping them.  Plus if they ever do achieve Thought Control, it's not actually helpful to them.  That was a narrative decision, and a "fill in the slot" decision, since no one else had taken it.  It's probably not actually a good win-the-game decision.

and its even more pronounced for AI that doesn't terraform well.

Everyone in my mod has Clean Formers available at the beginning of the game, and they only cost 30 minerals.  So I've got better terraforming than stock.  Not certain how much better.

[Nexii]

The AI also isn't that consistent. Some games it expands and plays very well, and some games it just does really stupid things. This has way more impact than a free facility. So in a way the factions don't require perfect balance. There will be that game where Hive ICSes like they should, using POLICE to its max. And just rolls over its neighbours and rides the momentum wave to the end, despite other weaknesses. Takes a large amount of simulated games to get a feel for it.

Same can be said even for the human player. Randomness like whether you lose your first colony pod has a massive impact later. Or whether your starter spots have bonus resources. Monsoon Jungle, don't need to say more.

Yea I forgot Pirates were aquatic in yours. With stock sea terraforming I'd expect the AI to do the best as them. 7 FOP a tile from the game's start easily outweighs free facilities. Land is usually like 4 FOP at the start, maybe 5 FOP on a rainy or low erosion world.

Yea what I was trying to say about Hive is that +2 ECONOMY is a much bigger boost to research than +2 RESEARCH, for most of the game. So you'd go Capitalist/Wealth, and their Police benefit wouldn't do them much good. Making them immune to negative MORALE would help them more I think. One thing I do wish they had in the game was a BENEFIT SE, to make the upside of a choice twice as strong (or even +1 would do). Knowledge at +4 RESEARCH might be competitive with +2 ECONOMY, though that's a bit wild

[bvanevery]

The AI also isn't that consistent. Some games it expands and plays very well, and some games it just does really stupid things.

For long periods of my modding, I believed that AI performance was driven by research focus choice.  Explore, in particular, seemed to be the magic bullet for getting performance.  This is partially the origin of the name of my mod, SMACX AI Growth mod.  Explore actually means "colonization and growth" under the hood.

Then something happened, somewhere along the way.  Maybe I reshuffled techs that I never knew were important to the AI?  Something about my early tree, made the research focus much less relevant.  I found I had more flexibility in choice, to see viable early faction growth patterns.

Then the decision to put Clean Reactors at the beginning of the game, and to teach the AI to use various Clean units such as Clean Formers, had a decisive accelerating effect.

So in a way the factions don't require perfect balance.

That's defeatism.  Manual tuning does improve AIs.  The problem is, you may have to iterate a long time to discover the improvements.  Even then, you may not know exactly why you're seeing improvements, only that you are.  Of course, my opinion is, if people would just start by imitating my results to some degree... like read my huge CHANGELOG as to why I did things...

Once upon a time, I imitated someone in the archives who had noticed the strong effect that Explore had on early colonization success.

Randomness like whether you lose your first colony pod

As an experienced human player, you have to be pretty stupid to do that.  Defensive movement and placement principles are known, or should have been deduced with experience.  Mindworms have a hard time harming you on a lot of terrain.  Of course, my point of view is for the stock binary.  If some other binary makes early mindworms an invulnerable death sentence, then YMMV.

Getting a bad start, is something semi-fixable with modding.  There's a reason I recommend Huge maps, and why my maps have more continentally land mass.  The only real threats I remember experiencing lately are gratuitous fungal mazes.  I most certainly never select Abundant life forms, but sometimes I seem to get something like that anyways.  With mazes, you have to settle fast and get going on Formers.  It will put you behind other factions, but you can recover.

Making them immune to negative MORALE would help them more I think.

Why on Earth would I do that with the Hive?  Their citizens are the most miserable in the game.  It's totally non-narrative to turn them into Spartan wannabes.  Different factions have their schticks.  One shouldn't just sprinkle MORALE around like some kind of generalized booster shot.  If the Spartans aren't generally the toughest, then it doesn't mean anything.

One thing I do wish they had in the game was a BENEFIT SE, to make the upside of a choice twice as strong (or even +1 would do).

Sounds like a way to blow the lid off the dynamic range of a choice range.  Particularly imbalancing at the start of the game.

Some of your perceived inability to control what the AI chooses, may be because you're not being subtle about these choices.  You don't seem to be thinking about it as a game of inches, where even +1 must be earned.  You seem to want MOAR!

High dynamic range choices, combined with AI weighting, may just yield clearly obviously best choices as far as the AI is concerned.  So no variety of AI choice.

[Nexii]

I'm not convinced that Explore is always better. I did think that for awhile but I've seen Discover, Build, Conquer factions colonize and then build well. As long as they get the base growth techs that any faction should: Recycle Tanks, Formers, Foils.

I did note something, the governor choice (Explore, Build, Discover, Conquer) under human control often doesn't match the faction's priority under AI control. So I want to say that priority only impacts the techs, SPs, and SEs that a faction prioritizes. It seems like perhaps units and buildings were taken out of that equation at some point, since they did code the governor automation. But it's hard to say.

Anyways the goal here was to create factions that feel different from one another to play. Which for me few in the original set had that feeling, perhaps Yang with his PS/Planned and the Pirates. But the rest just didn't stand out in terms of gameplay style. I'm happy with most except perhaps Pirates... perhaps have to see their consistency on sea maps. On land they seem to get run over, which is a bit odd for having +1 MORALE, +1 SUPPORT, +1 POLICE. Might just be their -1 EFFIC and at war too much to pick FM enough to get better tech. And might just be that I have to set them as pure Conquer. Spreading out priorities means that weapons and armor aren't prioritized enough to run over other factions.

[bvanevery]

Recycling Tanks are neither easy nor hard to get in my mod.  It's a Build 2 tech, Industrial Base.  My Tier 2 is pretty broad, so it can take awhile for a faction to acquire any specific tech in that tier, if it's not part of their research focus.  However factions trade Tier 1 and Tier 2 techs freely, as no Secret Projects are at stake.  Maybe acquiring "all the basic tools" in the early game, has assisted my faction growth and made the research focus differences less important?