armored probe teams

[bvanevery]

Over the years I've used armored probe teams a little bit.  Typically switch to an infantry chassis to make the cost reasonable.  Adding ECM and 3-Pulse is a good idea when those become available.  That said, I haven't found myself needing much probe team defense as of late, so it comes across as busywork for me personally.

In my mod I predefined an ECM 3-Pulse Infantry probe team unit.  These turn out to be a surprising PITA to kill!  I thought armor would only affect probe team combat, and that ordinary units would summarily kill them as usual.  That is not the case.  They defend like ordinary garrison units.  That means they can pretty much march right up to you to bother you, they are bitter little pills.  Artillery doesn't do any good because they're armored.  So far mindworms are the best antidote, as the probe team can't affect them.

If one has a high base morale rating for probe teams, or chooses more PROBE in the SE choices, I wonder if this can become a form of defensive abuse?  They could have much higher morale than you'd otherwise be entitled to.  Forget ordinary garrison units, just guard your cities with armored probe teams!  This smells like a bug.

[PvtHudson]

Interesting observation. It turns out, armored probe garrison is ideal choice when you can't benefit from police and are short on support? Just don't stack it with regular units, as regular will be considered better defender, and on defeat probe says bye-bye too. Very interesting, I should try this.
On the side note, do you think it's too easy to get elite probe teams, either land, air, or sea - all of them? I sometimes wish regular units morale-enhancing facilities didn't affect probes, as probes have their own morale-upping techs in addition to SE and probe actions promotions.

[bvanevery]

Well the Eliteism is going to be a problem if we all get really cozy with this armor exploit, that's for sure.  A player can overcome the designated defender issue by having a single armored probe team escort unarmored units!  Or if one wants to micromanage, designated defenders can be specified manually.

I didn't even think about the free support, that's another problem.  I've thought about making Clean Reactors available very early in the game to alleviate AI support problems.  I'm not sure the AI would take me up on such a generous offer though.  Currently I have them available as a Tier 4 tech, on par with Environmental Economics, Industrial Automation, and Genejack Factories.  These are solidly midgame techs in my tree, it takes awhile to get there.  I see the AI making some Clean units, but it's not into using that for most units.

[bvanevery]

Are Probe Teams considered combat units, non-combat units, or their own category?  The issue is whether the following alphax.txt modifier applies to abusing Probe Team armor:

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50,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
If they were considered non-combat, then this number could be substantially increased.  I suppose I could determine the answer experimentally.

[bvanevery]

For version 1.25 of my mod, I've decided to make Comm Jammers available for Combat units only.  This somewhat reduces the exploit.  It doesn't eliminate it, as probe teams can still use 3-Pulse armor.

I haven't yet tested whether the "non-combat unit defending" affects probe team defense or not.

[bvanevery]

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50,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit

Rather than bother to test whether this applies to probe teams, in my mod I'm just going to bump it to 100%.  That makes it comparable to a ship caught in port, having air superiority in air combat, or AAA defense against an air unit.  A perfectly reasonable decision in its own right, because some people have complained about the tactical value of a "wall of armored Formers".  With this change, Former armor will need to be really good.

It either helps with the Probe Team armor exploit or it doesn't.  It's the only variable available that could conceivably affect this.

[bvanevery]

While watching an AI vs. AI game, I finally came to a point at which I could test attacking an armored probe team.  Reloading all kinds of different values for the non-combat modifier, it seemed to have no effect on the results.

Subsequently I started a game with the non-combat modifier at 100%.  On turn 5, I had a colony pod adjacent to a mindworm.  I saved the game to do an experiment with it.  I waited for the mindworm to attack, and it totally and easily killed my colony pod without taking a wound.  I changed the modifier to 50%, reloaded the game, and let the mindworm attack again.  My colonist still died, but the mindworm was damaged 60%.  On another such run, the colonist lived but was damaged 50%.

In the mindworm vs. colonist combat, the latter had the designation "Non Combat -100%" or "Non Combat -50%" in the combat odds.  Probe teams have no such designation!  This proves that the probe team armor exploit is fully functional.  There's nothing I can do about it at the .txt modding level.

[Geo]

This proves that the probe team armor exploit is fully functional.  There's nothing I can do about it at the .txt modding level.

They're kinda paramilitary police or something.

[bvanevery]

I think everyone in this universe must have some kind of flying rocket backpacks that defend defend defend whenever anyone starts attacking them!  "Did I hear an aggressor explode in my general direction?"  I'm trying to figure out a combat system that isn't goofy like this.  Weapons and armor, yes, but not attack and defense.

[bvanevery]

By mucking around with the Abilities bit flags in alphax.txt, I have determined that Probe Teams are considered "Noncombat" units as far as Abilities are concerned.  The proof of this is Algorithmic Enhancement.  This flag must be enabled for a Probe Team to be able to add this ability in the Unit Workshop:

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;          000000100000 = Allowed for Noncombat units (non-terraformer)
Pointedly, I turned the following flag OFF, and the ability is still available:

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;          000000001000 = Allowed for Combat units
Despite probe teams clearly being Noncombat, the following setting has no effect upon them:

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50,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
I consider this to be a bug.  I don't think probe teams were meant to be armored badasses that normal combat units have difficulty killing.  I thought perhaps the armor was for probe vs. probe combat only.  And indeed, it does work for that.  Armored Infantry chassis probe teams are a much better deal for probe defense than Speeder chassis probe teams are.  They hold up way better.

I tried to give the AI that understanding, but it refuses to listen.  It just uses the armored probe teams offensively!  Due to the exploit, that actually works.  So in the next version of my mod I'm throwing in the towel.  Armored Speeder chassis probe teams will be available as predefined units, in the Synthmetal and 3-Pulse flavors.  Such teams are expensive, but likely to be more effective.  It's gotta do better than the classical stack of 4 normal probe teams being summarily murdered.  The AI could stand to calm down, get a grip, and take an aimed shot on such things.

[Vidsek]

        Nice work with the testing.  Very scientific-like
  With the Non-combatant defense penalty line not working with Probe units, I will second defining it as a bug.

       Now to find an .exe modder to fix it.......

[bvanevery]

For all I know it could have already been fixed in someone's .exe patch.  I didn't check that, because whether I can make this work in straight SMAC or not, tends to be the limit of my concerns.  I've yet to encounter anything that would make me give over to a specific .exe patch as a requirement.  So I write to straight SMAC, and if anyone makes use of my mod in conjunction with a patch, then they'll be happy for some nerfing of probe teams.

[PvtHudson]

To my knowledge, the definition of combat unit in SMAC is weapon >= 1 or armor > 1. Accordingly, non-combat unit is unit without armor and equipped with non-attack package (terraformer, probe, etc).

[bvanevery]

I think there are two definitions of Noncombat, which is how they got a bug.  The other definition is a classification, as evidenced by the flags.  "Probe teams are Noncombat".  I seriously doubt that I'm going to get different unit design behavior based on whether a probe team has armor or not!  I will check that, but I know what I expect to find.

Even if you believe that adding armor makes it not a bug, having free support for a combat unit is surely a bug.

[PvtHudson]

Even if you believe that adding armor makes it not a bug, having free support for a combat unit is surely a bug.

Support isn't tied to unit's 'combatness' in any way, at least now. Saying nothing about how it should be. On another note: do you tested armored probe team being designated defender in one stack with non-probe unit, is it working?