Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

If I want Planetary Networks to have two I need to move it to level 3.

Or you could just make an exception for this 1 case.  As the French say, "The Exception that proves the Rule."

Meh. Linking the tree is already a pretty hard work. I've standardize it to at least give technology level some sense. They are all exactly proportional now. I.e. level 8 is about twice as far in the game as level 4, etc.
I think I'll move it to level 3. It is not that critical technology anyway.

[bvanevery]

1) same weapon pure attacker infantry is more than twice cheaper than speeder,

Speed is an advantage.  I'm not understanding the problem here.

2) Adding even level 2 armor on pure attacker immediately doubles its cost.

Armor is an advantage so...?

Another problem with Scout Patrol costs 1 is that its trance and police modifications also cost 1. That is not right. Trance patrol 100% negates native warfare from other faction. Six time cheaper defender is too cheap.

But a Trance Scout is only good at defending against native life forms, nothing else.  It's not like it makes you safe from a faction invasion.

Same consideration about double police unit. It is super beneficial as it quells more drones otherwise not achievable by current police rating and it also saves on support.

It also only works if your POLICE rating is -1 or higher.

So it should cost about twice as more as base one or at least 50% more.

I think we have a fundamental difference of view as game designers, in that you seem very intent on preventing players from ever gaining an advantage.  You keep arranging things so that advantages zero out.  Whereas, I see doing the work of going up the tech tree, then gaining an advantage from having done that work, as the basic point of the game.  I want players to gain advantages and then end the game by using them.  I don't want the player to proceed forever, treading water, with advantages zeroed out.

The conflict you set up between ECONOMY and EFFICiency is a notable example of this.  You give money with one thing, you take it away with the other, what's the point?  I don't basically understand the game design proposition, "money buys you inefficiency".  Nor "efficency makes you poor".

You can argue about any specific concern, and you might even be right in some instance, for some choice of proportionate setting somewhere.  But if you keep doing this as a general tendency, the strategic result is you are demanding that the player wait for things and for the game to take longer.  It's already a long game.  How does making the game take even longer to play, increase the quality or enjoyment of anyone's life?  It could be providing entertainment value if there's an interesting tradeoff to make about stuff.  But zeroed out tradeoffs are often not interesting.  "Hey, here's a new beat in the tech tree!  Guess what, it's not worth anything, it's been zeroed out."  You might as well have not bothered to provide the capability to begin with, when it becomes a new way of setting things to zero yet again.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Another problem with Scout Patrol costs 1 is that its trance and police modifications also cost 1. That is not right. Trance patrol 100% negates native warfare from other faction. Six time cheaper defender is too cheap.

I meant specifically faction invasion with native warfare. Using natives for assault is an option and extremely cheap protection against it eliminates it as an option. Now you don't have choice and tactical maneuver ability.

[bvanevery]

Meh. Linking the tree is already a pretty hard work.

So you finally noticed that.     Back when you asked whether you could borrow my tech tree, and I told you my licensing, and you asked whether the tech tree was a "substantial" piece of work, I was like, boy he's gonna find out someday!
  I swear that in designing a new game, being able to rapidly edit whatever my approach to technology is, is going to be like the 1st thing I work on.  It has consumed months of my time.

I think I'll move it to level 3. It is not that critical technology anyway.

It'll probably work.  My Probe Teams can come pretty late because of the sheer quantity of early techs I have in my tree, and the categorical obstructions.

[bvanevery]

I meant specifically faction invasion with native warfare.

The AI doesn't know how to prevent you from invading with natives.  The AI doesn't know how to invade you with natives.  In a single player game, where's the problem?  I don't care about multiplayer games.  Multiplayer can bite me, this game is way too long to bother worrying about multiplayer game design.

Well unless Induktio's Thinker Mod has seriously changed the status quo of AI combat prowess.  In the stock binary, the AI needs all the help it can get.  Trance Scouts and Trance 3-Res Sentinels considered good predesigned units.  I'll be trashing the AI with my mindworms and a +4 PLANET rating, then I'll run into one of those and actually have to start thinking for a change.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I think we have a fundamental difference of view as game designers, in that you seem very intent on preventing players from ever gaining an advantage.  You keep arranging things so that advantages zero out.  Whereas, I see doing the work of going up the tech tree, then gaining an advantage from having done that work, as the basic point of the game.  I want players to gain advantages and then end the game by using them.  I don't want the player to proceed forever, treading water, with advantages zeroed out.

The conflict you set up between ECONOMY and EFFICiency is a notable example of this.  You give money with one thing, you take it away with the other, what's the point?  I don't basically understand the game design proposition, "money buys you inefficiency".  Nor "efficency makes you poor".

You can argue about any specific concern, and you might even be right in some instance, for some choice of proportionate setting somewhere.  But if you keep doing this as a general tendency, the strategic result is you are demanding that the player wait for things and for the game to take longer.  It's already a long game.  How does making the game take even longer to play, increase the quality or enjoyment of anyone's life?  It could be providing entertainment value if there's an interesting tradeoff to make about stuff.  But zeroed out tradeoffs are often not interesting.  "Hey, here's a new beat in the tech tree!  Guess what, it's not worth anything, it's been zeroed out."  You might as well have not bothered to provide the capability to begin with, when it becomes a new way of setting things to zero yet again.

You are right that I might be too tight on balancing things. Generally I am trying to tell myself to let go unless I perceive it as game breaker. As you see I tend to agree with most of the changes you propose. Mostly because I don't care about minor things.

Some other things I feel important, though. Take SE for example. In my box games I found myself sticking to Democratic + Free Market + Wealth all the time from the middle onward. Maybe occasionally turning off FM during the invasion. This killer combination in term of money and research is unbeatable. I found myself never using Police State, Fundamentalist, Power. Which kinda make me think that if they would be not so lame I would use them just out of curiosity even. But they are exceptionally lame. That's why I rearranged SE choices to give them a chance. The ECONOMY vs. EFFICIENCY opposition you observe is not a nullification but a choice. Early on EFFICIENCY has almost no effect but later on it does! So the value of SE choices changes over time - my exact intention.
This is just an example of many things I looked at. No need to argue about it. I'll have a look at your SE config and may copy some ideas here and there.

You understand my intention wrong. Let me reiterate it once more. I do not in any way want it to make longer. That would be stupid idea in general.

What I want is to make sure that any single feature of the game is usable in one way/time or another. I do not want to see completely useless things there. That is why I removed bunch of stuff from my version that is useless beyond repair (some empty technologies, inherently useless abilities, etc.).
I will accept all changes as long as they don't push some features out of tactical instrumentality.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The AI doesn't know how to prevent you from invading with natives.  The AI doesn't know how to invade you with natives.  In a single player game, where's the problem?  I don't care about multiplayer games.  Multiplayer can bite me, this game is way too long to bother worrying about multiplayer game design.

Well unless Induktio's Thinker Mod has seriously changed the status quo of AI combat prowess.  In the stock binary, the AI needs all the help it can get.  Trance Scouts and Trance 3-Res Sentinels considered good predesigned units.  I'll be trashing the AI with my mindworms and a +4 PLANET rating, then I'll run into one of those and actually have to start thinking for a change.

Wow. Are you sure about this 100%?
O_o
I think I've seen AI sending worms to me as well as building trance unit in response to my worm waves.

If you are right then native warfare config should be rethought a little.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Continuing making game longer topic.
Actually, upon thinking of it, I realized that if anything I do with the game is making it in fact shorter. My idea is to remove any drag, waiting or grinding from it. That's why I shorten the tree and moved all the feature to the place where they needed the most thus eliminating any unneeded clutter and given player what they need when they need it. So if anything I make it more dynamic and plan to keep this way.

[bvanevery]

I think I've seen AI sending worms to me

Sending a worm at you isn't a credible threat.  You attack it, you kill it, it's over.  The AI's skill at mindworm offense is completely laughable.  You don't need any Trance defense against an AI faction, it's a complete non-issue.

Know who's actually good at mindworm offense?  Planet.  It sends hordes of mindworms at you.  During global warming floods and such, triggered by industry, nukes, or too many chemical weapons.  They will kill you.  I've got AARs of them killing me.  That's when a cheap Trance Scout is really really helpful.  Although frankly, I only delayed the inevitable that way.  See my writeups.  I should do an AAR where I actually prevail in the face of this kind of onslaught.  Sometime when I don't have any real content to provide for my mod, and I want to get more attention on Reddit.  I think you probably have to get to Fusion Power, Genejack Factories, and various Secret Projects in place before you have a hope of surviving this.  You definitely cannot survive it given the paltry production resources of the early game, they will win.  I mean, yeah, I survived the mindworms, only to be nuked by the factions that I pissed off in the 1st place with the chemical attacks that triggered the mindworms.

as well as building trance unit in response to my worm waves.

My testing over all the iterations of my mod is, if you give the AI the opportunity to obsess about 3-Res armor, it will.  Every.  Single.  Freakin'.  Unit.  And it doesn't hold up to PLANET friendly mindworm offense.  3-Res is not that tough.  I'm glad you got rid of it in your mod, as it just wastes the AI's production resources.  In my mod, in 1.26 I positioned it later, so that the AI has better things to do than obsess about it.

Trance units create actual impediment to me stomping the AI with my mindworms.  It's uncomfortable losing a Demon Boil to a Scout that only cost 10 to make.  In my mod, the AI doesn't produce nearly enough of such units to hold me off though.

I did make Trance ability cost 1, it's not a free lunch.  I didn't think anyone should have magical immunity to mindworm attacks, same as you thought there should actually be choice to make such attacks.  Problem is, my pendulum has probably swung too far the other way.  Human player mindworm offense is too easy right now.  In fact compared to all the other weapons and armor nerfing I've done, I could be accused of having made it into the only productive conquest path of the early game.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Agree that natives is hard to balance between planet produced and faction produced cases.
I'll probably keep it at 5:4 for now.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I will decrease most of the multiplication abilities in light of weapon-armor equalizing. In box game weapon growths faster. Therefore, strong defensive abilities are given. Unfortunately, AI not always use them to their best. Now when armor is on par with weapon to 2/3 of the game it makes sense to decrease these abilities in value and they still be quite significant.

trance = +25%
song = +25%
jammer = +25%
tracking = +50%

Example
Needleject attacks unit in base with no Airspace Complex but with tracking and sensor.
1) Box game. Weapon to armor ratio = 2/1. Odds = 2:(1*1.25*1.25*2) = 0.64. Pretty small odds but they don't make defender absolutely invulnerable. Two needlejets for one defender trade-off.
2) RT mod unmodified abilities. Weapon to armor ratio = 1/1. Odds = 1:(1*1.25*1.25*2) = 0.32. That makes defender completely invulnerable. Attacker loses 4 Needlejects per defender. Too much.
3) RT mod decreased abilities. Odds = 1:(1*1.25*1.25*1.5) = 0.42. Still low: 3 attacker per defender casualties. Makes more sense than #2 though.

[bvanevery]

That's why I shorten the tree

I can't tell yet because I haven't completed a game.  Also, my testing is on a Huge map.  I don't believe the AI is capable of putting up a fight on a smaller sized map, with the stock .exe.

[bvanevery]

I will decrease most of the multiplication abilities

Could work.  Not crazy talk.  I guess only downside is AI not really understanding that the abilities are worth half as much as they used to be, but still cost the same.  Human player understands just fine and can make the choice.

[bvanevery]

MY 2216.  I resume the game, trying to remember what I was doing.  Ok, war with the Pirates.  Can't remember what bases I've stolen from already, but there's nothing to steal right now, so the point is moot.  I have an Elite probe team which theoretically, would be useful for stealing a tech from my ally Lal.  But in practice, I have a -6 PROBE rating.  Doesn't sound like a winner.

MY 2219.  The Data Angels have started on the Virtual World right after me.  I only began it in a minor city, thinking I had an advantage getting the tech earlier than others.  I am moving my 4 Artifacts into position to rush it when I'm ready.  I discovered a 5th Artifact out on the water this turn, but it will take awhile to bring home.  A Foil Probe team is nearing the Angels' home waters for infiltration.

MY 2220.  I research Industrial Automation on my own, potentially changing how I complete Secret Projects.  However Supply Crawlers cost 80 in this game, so it has to be a city I'm committed to some more expensive production in.  I'm at size 7 in some cities and need some Hab Complexes, so I'm glad I got this.  I make my 1st Spore Launcher to go deal with another one that's shelling my shore.  I've completed a Missile prototype so I'll make Missile Artillery if this doesn't hold up all that well.

MY 2221.  Seething at me, the Spartans end our Pact.  Not like I care, but their anger gets my Artifact a free ride home!

MY 2222.  I infiltrate Roze.  She signs a Pact with me and sells me High Energy Chemistry for 100 credits.  It gives strength 6 Plasma armor.  My Spore Launcher got summarily killed by the one on the Isle, it couldn't hang.

MY 2224.  I complete the last of my Hologram Theaters in my capitol, enabling me to switch my budget to 40-20-40.

MY 2228.  I research Doctrine: Initiative, so, more SPs to build.  Not really any war happening with the Pirates.  This is turning into a classic "build Supply Crawlers on an island to bang out SPs" game.

MY 2229.  Morgan, tiring of my Planned economy, declares war on me.  But he's far away, he can't do a thing to me.  I could get Roze to bother him as they share a border, but I won't.  He might be slightly stronger than Roze right now, and if she wants war at some point, she'll get around to it.  Meanwhile the Spore Launcher sits at sea, and the Isle it was on seems to be gone.  Hopefully next turn it sinks.

MY 2230.  My ally Lal begins the Maritime Control Center.  I'm behind Roze on the Virtual World as is.  I'm going to need those Supply Crawlers I'm building.

MY 2231.  I begin the Planetary Energy Grid, expensive as it is, because it's more valuable.  It's in a low production city, but Perimeter Defense and Hab Complex have been completed there.  In my capitol I begin a Plasma Garrison prototype.

MY 2234.  Morgan shows up on my west coast with a ship to bother me.  Of course with the long prototyping time and only 1 Command Center, I do not feel like or have any artillery to meet him.  Maybe I could buy him with a Foil Probe Team, but I'm too lazy to bother.  I'll just keep rebuilding stuff until I can get artillery ready.  Not like I didn't just go through this drill in exactly the same place.

MY 2235.  Lal begins the Planetary Energy Grid.

MY 2237.  I research Ecological Engineering, which makes the Manifold Harmonics available.  It only costs me 240 to produce, definitely far too cheap, and possibly quite overpowered this early in the game.  But I've never been able to build it this early in a game before, so the experiment is definitely worth trying.  It would force me to become a tree hugger, which isn't so hard.  All I have to do is switch to Green to get +2 PLANET.  However that will also give me a -2 INDUSTRY penalty, which would interfere with winning these important Secret Project races.  So I will build it, but not just yet.

I switch the Planetary Energy Grid production to the Manifold Harmonics.  That city is low production and the Grid will only get done with Supply Crawlers anyways.  It can be built in a more centrally located city.

MY 2238.  For unknown reasons, the Morganite ship leaves.

MY 2241.  I complete the Virtual World and sell off my Hologram Theaters.  Lal begins the Manifold Harmonics, requiring me to divert crawlers to its completion.  Morgan sinks a Sea Former that wasn't doing anything important, just planting seed kelp to the north of my lands.  Morgan's ship is half wounded now, so maybe it will slink away in shame.

MY 2243.  The Pirates sink another useless Sea Former that I was trying to sneak across the Sargasso Sea.  I had a Transport going that way as well, trying to get to pods.  It will reverse course.  Domai bothers me.  I ask him to knock off his war with Lal and he does so.  He's allied with Morgan, but Lal is in between us.  He's at war with the Pirates so at least we agree on something.

Every time I try to go into the fungus north of this one city, I get a mindworm.  It's getting annoying.  I keep diverting Formers to places on my island I don't really need to be working.  I guess I do have Ecological Engineering now and should make a Condenser somewhere, if it's useful.  Despite more expensive Forests in this mod, I have lots of it by now.  Hey, trees grow on trees.

MY 2244.  I complete the Manifold Harmonics.  I'm still working on the Planetary Energy Grid so will not go Green.  The Pirates sink the Transport that wasn't doing me any good.  I guess I need artillery any day now, as those ships will eventually move past the uninhabited portion of my island next to the Sargasso Sea.  My capitol is finishing a Perimeter Defense to prevent surprises.

[bvanevery]

MY 2245.  I research Centauri Meditation, making the Xenoempathy Dome available.  Time to allocate another city to a SP.  It is quite a bit cheaper than the other projects.  I have moved my 5 Artifacts to the Planetary Energy Grid city, in case someone's doing a much better job of building it.  Lal only needs 23 turns and is building 1 Supply Crawler.  I need 74 turns and am building 3 Supply Crawlers.  I think I win this one, but he might manage the Maritime Control Center.  I check in with Lal to get his map info and buy Secrets of the Human Brain from him for 100 credits.

MY 2246.  I buy Intellectual Integrity from Roze for 100 credits.  It makes Power available, whose -2 INDUSTRY penalty I definitely don't want.

MY 2248.  Lal begins the Xenoempathy Dome, again causing me to worry.  I switch my Grid production to Dome production to head him off, because it's a lot cheaper and the Nexus is already pushing me towards a future Green strategy.  Grid is now beginning completely from scratch, grr.

MY 2250.  I complete the Xenoempathy Dome.  I'm realizing that I don't need to get rid of these various fungal blooms now.  I just need to complete my SPs and go Green.  Lal only needs 14 turns to complete the Grid.  This is uncomfortable.

MY 2252.  Sunspots set in.  I have to be careful not to lose track of Lal's progress.  I finally get some Missile Artillery together.  I'm gonna go shell this stupid Pirate Transport that's been wandering offshore for years.

MY 2253.  I learn Fusion Power.  No fusion reactor but it makes Fusion Labs available.  It also makes Carrier Deck available, which I find completely nonsensical.  The Pirates have built a land base on the northeast end of my island!  Now they're going to see how Xenoempathy works.

MY 2254.  6 turns until Lal completes the Grid.  He may have me beat.

MY 2256.  I've had a Foil Probe Team exploring Morgan's backwater since forever.  Completing that job, he finally has a tech to steal.  I take Eudaimonia.  Not useful, just ECONOMY and a lot of penalties.  Makes me feel sorry for Domai, I should give it to him just to hurt him.

MY 2257.  2 turns until Lal's Grid.  I don't think I can bring any more Supply Crawlers before then.  I think I've got this if I cash all my Artifacts.  I save my game just in case I've done the math wrong.  Yep, I've got it!

MY 2258.  I complete the Planetary Energy Grid.  Lal will of course completely overkill the Maritime Control Center next turn.  I'm going to build my Fusion Labs then go Green.