Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Decided I will test "1.1+" version of Tim's mod, by adding 2 changes of my own to deal with egregiousness per my "I QUIT!" post.

World Builder section: set Continent base=30, Continent modif.=60, Islands=0.  Despite the enormous amount of work I did once upon a time to arrive at these values, the actual changes needed to make better land masses is pretty trivial, just these 3 settings.  Feel free to use them if you decide you like them, without worrying about crediting me.  The license on my mod is for taking "big" portions of my work, not a setting here or there.

Predefined units: added Skimship Foil Probe team, in the hope that it diverts AI attention from obsessive land probe team production.  It may not.  The seeming change in AI behavior may be about PROBE values in the Social Engineering table.  But I think it is worth finding out one way or the other, so let's see if I get sucker punched by an overpowered probe team again.

Good suggestion about worldbuilder.
As for another predefined unit - can you send me the exact line from txt?

[bvanevery]

Item rating has nothing to do with item cost. These are two separate numbers. I adjusted them both for different purposes.

You have made land units cost substantially more than equivalent sea units.  Cost of production is power, you've penalized being a land power.  Land power is the bulk of the game for most factions, so this is tedious and annoying.  I have problems producing much of anything to defend myself on land.  I got my capitol wiped out last game by interloping units, that never happens.  Your changes in cost have made it a lot easier for AI and indigenous life forms to randomly maraud an unprepared continent with no warning.  Cost of production makes it rather difficult to have any defense ready, making this feel like griefing, not strategy.

On the other hand, possibly with better map generator settings, the marauding problem may not even arise.

Sea units cost growths quadratically. So yes, early sea units are relatively cheap but later are catching up in cost.

Not interested in later because I start the game playing it now.  Early game experience can be bad and off-putting compared to the rest of the game.  To the extent that early game is the 1st thing anyone experiences when trying your mod, I suggest being careful and not cavalier about it.  My jury is not completely decided on such matters, but I think something needs to be done about early game experience of land vs. sea unit costs, and weapon and armor progressions.

I can easily bump up early sea units and make them more expensive but then their later analogues will cost sun and moon. Not good either.

Less of a problem than screwing the early game IMO.  Later game can always have more factories and minerals.  Also consider that early game phenomena have a disproportionate effect on AI growth.

Again I don't understand why you bother with absolute timing. Only relative timing matters.

I am probably controlling a wildly variant tree with narrower timing window ranges than you are.  Evidence so far: achieving 2x capable doom weapon in my 1st game.  Jury is still out on extent of the problem.

[bvanevery]

As for another predefined unit - can you send me the exact line from txt?

Code: [Select]

Foil Probe Team,                Foil, Probe Team, Scout, 11,0,0, PlaNets, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
My Planetary Networks has Doctrine: Mobility and Doctrine: Flexibility as prereqs.  There is no issue with someone reverse engineering the Speeder chassis or a Foil chassis from a probe team, because these are requirements anyways.  I am adding this requirement to 1.1+ test as well.

In my test I will deliberately refuse to take "special or extraordinary" precautions about probe team incursions.  The usual drill in my own mod, is I do hit a point at which I start building defensive probe team units, on my own infantry chassis with armor.  However that's generally contingent on production demands, and military defense always comes before probe defense for me.  If I do not actually ever have enough production before I'm assaulted by overpowered probe teams, then the root cause AFAIAC is too expensive production costs in general.  We shall see.  I'm not anti probe defense, but I shouldn't have to perform it as some immediate and high stress ritual to have a chance of surviving the game.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You have made land units cost substantially more than equivalent sea units.  Cost of production is power, you've penalized being a land power.  Land power is the bulk of the game for most factions, so this is tedious and annoying.  I have problems producing much of anything to defend myself on land.  I got my capitol wiped out last game by interloping units, that never happens.  Your changes in cost have made it a lot easier for AI and indigenous life forms to randomly maraud an unprepared continent with no warning.  Cost of production makes it rather difficult to have any defense ready, making this feel like griefing, not strategy.

Scout units in boxed game are extremely cheap. That's true. I brought them a little bit closer to speeder units. I can revert this back if you feel this is better.

Sea units cost growths quadratically. So yes, early sea units are relatively cheap but later are catching up in cost.

Not interested in later because I start the game playing it now.  Early game experience can be bad and off-putting compared to the rest of the game.  To the extent that early game is the 1st thing anyone experiences when trying your mod, I suggest being careful and not cavalier about it.  My jury is not completely decided on such matters, but I think something needs to be done about early game experience of land vs. sea unit costs, and weapon and armor progressions.

I can easily bump up early sea units and make them more expensive but then their later analogues will cost sun and moon. Not good either.

Less of a problem than screwing the early game IMO.  Later game can always have more factories and minerals.  Also consider that early game phenomena have a disproportionate effect on AI growth.

NP. I'll decrease cost of infantry units to what they were in boxed game. My speeders, though, are about the same as in original. Let's see if it makes sense.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

More expensive ships.

[bvanevery]

I am examining 1.2 alphax.txt using WinMerge.  I see map generator changes incorporated, good.  Foil Probe Team is present but you forgot to increase #UNITS count to 24.  I would also suggest adding Doctrine: Mobility as a prereq for Planetary Networks while you're at it.

Beginning test with those changes.  Huge map, 30%..50% land mass as per recommendation in my own mod.  Transcend, random factions.  I draw Zhakarov.  Good test of Probe Team aggressiveness as he has -2 PROBE, unlike my own mod where he has no PROBE penalty at all anymore.  If I get punked I'm not going to be shocked.

I keep pure Discover focus to understand progressions as an AI player would see them.

I have rushed both my 1st Scout and my 1st Former.

Cavalier attitude towards expense of Scout production almost causes me to lose my 2nd base.  I build a Former instead of a Scout because I've got a cloned Scout coming.  Former completes just as a mindworm larva shows up from nowhere.  I'm safe but I could have lost the base.  It shows that even on a Huge map, you can't assume you won't have neighbors.

Learned Industrial Base, now a Conquer tech.  Strength 4 Synthmetal Armor implies that armor progressions in this game are going to be unusual.

MY 2121.  I rush my 1st Transport.  I only have my 2 original cities.

MY 2123.  I fish a Battle Ogre Mk 1.  Since this mod only does Fission reactors, it makes me wonder what happens if I get a Mk 2 or Mk 3.

MY 2127.  I rush my 1st produced Colony Pod.  Capitol begins Recycling Tank since I've got a lot of food and an Ogre to police it to size 3.

MY 2131.  I kill an obstructing Spore Launcher with a Scout, indicating that 5:4 Psi attack odds probably ends difficulty dealing with them.  Although it was a Disciplined unit.

MY 2132.  Green Independent Scout attacks Green Hatchling larva next to my 2nd city, and dies.  5:4 does not guarantee success on attack.  I will not save scum and just accept the damage for testing purposes.  Also it is only 1 larva attacking and I know its 2nd partner has to be around somewhere.  If it comes before I can react, this could kill my 2nd city.  This is big trouble no matter what anyways, because mindworm walk-in will likely kill my Colony Pod production, wipe out Network Node, and depopulate city.  Even if it doesn't, drones are about to riot, size is 2, food is from 2 forests so any change will knock me to size 1.  In essence, this mindworm has destroyed 1 of my early cities at a minimum, and 2 at a maximum.

MY 2133.  It destroyed Colony Pod production but not Network Node.  Size 1.  Switching to Scout and using Former as garrison for 6 turns it's going to take.

MY 2134.  Rushing Scout production in new 3rd city, having grown afraid of mindworm dangers.  Didn't get to put this city near appropriate resources, because unpopped supply pod was sitting on my preferred city site.  Lack of ability to quickly produce cheap Scouts, doubles amount of time it takes to clear pods.  This will affect both human and AI opening game.

MY 2137.  Rush Scout, rush Recycling Tank, gaining 2 turns of production time.

MY 2138.  Supply pod completes a Recycling Tank I just started, in the city that got whacked earlier.

MY 2139.  Designed bizarrely expensive 0-4-1 Rover Transport, hoping to repeat the insta-completion dynamic and get both a Speeder and Synthmetal Armor prototype accomplished.  Completion gambit works!  Learned Police State.  Can't switch to it yet, don't have enough credits.

MY 2141.  Money from sea pod allows switch to Police State.  Rush cheapened Scout.

My 2142.  Disband expensive Rover Transport in capitol to rush Recreation Commons.  Got that much food. 

[bvanevery]

MY 2143.  Feeling paranoid about garrisoning and threats, I begin Command Center in my capitol.  This is a direct response to slow production and bad experiences in my previous 2 games.  In stock game or my mod, I'd be starting a Secret Project.  Or possibly making more Colony Pods since I need more cities.  But for now, I will have my capitol go vertical.  It's got a lot of food.

Details attack is suicide

attack is suicide

History repeats itself.  5:4 Psi odds are not enough to attack and kill hatchling mindworms or spore launchers with Green units.  This time however, I had 2 units ready for the encounter.  1 garrisoned, 1 brought in from University Base.  Having to trade 1 for 1 is not acceptable cost of production.  It is also a big penalty to have to do this with an armored Scout that costs 20, rather than an unarmored Scout that costs 10.  Conventional armor does no good in Psi combat.

I can defend if there's only 1 mindworm.  2 mindworms attacking is a common scenario, getting off an Isle together, and that will kill a city.

My paranoia about building a Command Center is fully justified.  I wonder how the AI will do in the face of these threats?  Graph says Peacekeepers and Drones are doing slightly better than I.  Pirates and Morganites about the same.  Data Angels and Spartans slightly worse.  I haven't met anyone yet.  I seem to be on a modestly sized east-west island.  I am circumnavigating it with a regular Transport that's been fishing supply pods, and a slow independent Transport that is merely scouting.

Noticing that burden of armor cost, is achieving one of Tim's objectives.  Can't clean the map of supply pods easily.  At least, not on land.  Not really affected at sea.

MY 2146.  Rushed Command Center to completion.  Beginning spew of trained Scouts, because they are still cheapest thing I can make.  Rushing Recycling Tank.  Badly wounded Isle to the east, indicating a near neighbor.  That's another one of the the risks, other people's mindworm garbage washing up on my shore.  Feeling really wise about the Command Center.

MY 2147.  Expected badly wounded Isle to move towards my cities, not away from them.  Consequently, am now ending my turn next to the Isle.  Gives me a clue about what direction another faction is in, but will wound my slow Transport.  Fortunately only 10% damage.

MY 2149.  Free Market becomes available.  Could handle its -2 POLICE since I've got +2 POLICE from Police State, and enough happiness in my capitol to keep things together.  But -2 MORALE is unpleasant idea after investing in Command Center.  -3 PLANET is also bad from a getting attacked standpoint.  Only upside is +2 ECONOMY, which would change research speed from 13 turns to 8.  I think I have to pass and just grow my empire for now though.  I still only have 3 cities.  Capitol will go vertical, everything else will become the horizontal.

MY 2154.  East-west island is official, bounded by a small New Sargasso to the east.  Still no contact with other factions, but I haven't had the production to make any search ships.  4 cities now, all have Recycling Tanks.  Starting Energy Bank in capitol.

MY 2161.  Energy Bank completed.  Building Children's Creche as growth has slowed.  Peacekeepers about to complete the Weather Paradigm.

[bvanevery]

MY 2164.  Fished another Battle Ogre Mk 1.

MY 2168.  I learned Planned, which comes by way of Information Networks.  Weird that it takes me this long, as the University, to learn Information Networks.  I don't need Network Nodes but it makes me wonder what the pure Discover path really is.  Planned would give me a net -2 EFFIC.  Doesn't look like it will bother me much in my paltry about-to-be-6-city "empire".  I also don't have a lot more scope for land expansion due to fungal blooms getting in my way.  So I do it. 

MY 2169.  I produce my 1st 0-4-4 Skimship Probe Team.  The heavier armor doesn't cost me any more.  Beginning with Children's Creches to counteract inefficiency of Planned.  I complete a Laser Squad prototype.  This looks like my new version of a Scout as it costs the same.  If Yitzi's claims about mind control formulas are correct, this is also a bare minimum "offensive" unit that will help make cities more expensive to take over.  So crank them I shall.

MY 2173.  My capitol has run out of strictly necessary things to build, given my growth rate.  The Merchant Exchange is massively cheaper than the other available Secret Projects, and I have +3 INDUSTRY.  I have accumulated 6 Artifacts.  Both the Spartans and the Drones are working on it, so I rush it to completion, spending but 2 Artifacts and 120 cash to do so.  I could likely bang out another Secret Project quickly as well.

MY 2174.  I start the Human Genome Project.

MY 2179.  I've got enough to rush either the Human Genome Project or the Command Nexus, but I'll see if I can take fewer Artifacts to do it by waiting.  I don't actually need either facility right now. 

MY 2180.  I see a road on a continent east of me.

MY 2183.  I meet Lal and Domai.  I sign Treaties with both, but they have no techs.  Lal completes the Command Nexus.  Everyone is working on the Human Genome Project.  It's about time to rush it.  I cash 3 Artifacts to do so, leaving me with 2.

MY 2184.  I meet Santiago.  We sign a Treaty.  I thought she has no tech, but then I infiltrate her and see she's got Nonlinear Mathematics.  I guess she didn't want to trade it and I spaced it out.

It's time to start making defensive Probe Teams, nothing better to do.  Switching to Democratic as I really need my cities to grow.  With the Human Genome Project I shouldn't be too bad off with happiness.  I find my cities surprisingly miserable and have to do a 30-40-30 budget.  Then I realize, I've never built Recreation Commons.  Probably should have done that before making the transition, oh well.

MY 2186.  On the rebound, Santiago signs a Pact, but still won't trade her tech to me.  I see a Monolith on an island north of her.  She's also sitting next to the Monsoon Jungle, but it's on another land mass.

[bvanevery]

MY 2191.  I learn Centauri Empathy.  The Empath Guild is too expensive for me to begin just anywhere though.  Priority goes to building Biology Labs for the moment.

Details those dolts

those dolts

MY 2192.  Something is sick and wrong in the Discover dept., when I, as a pure Discover faction with the +2 RESEARCH advantage, get beaten to Secrets of the Human Brain by a -2 RESEARCH faction.

MY 2193.  Belatedly I realize that Santiago has Morgan's comm frequency.  I get it from her, then sign a Treaty with him.  He's grumpy about my Planned economy but doesn't mind selling me Nonlinear Mathematics for 100 credits.

MY 2194.  I get Svensgaard's frequency from Lal.  Just realized Information Networks is a D3 tech.  That explains why it took me so long to get.

Details manufactured outrage

manufactured outrage

I've got a bug!  Svensgaard thinks I've committed an atrocity against him, but we've never met before.  I seriously doubt someone could have framed me.  I wonder what's causing this behavior?

MY 2196.  I get Santiago to go to war with Svensgaard.  They're close enough that they might actually fight a little.  Santiago is Quarrelsome so I don't expect our Pact to last very long.

MY 2198.  Svensgaard couldn't do a thing about one of my 0-4-4 Foil Probe Teams.  He summarily died on my hull without scratching me.  I didn't see what kind of ship it was, but suspect it only had a Gun.

MY 2201.  I've completely encased my 6 cities in defensive probe teams with strength 4 armor.  Working on a Particle Impactor prototype.  Svensgaard suicided a bunch of weak Gun ships against my armored probe teams and the Slow Transport.  Looks like he may have been probing the Sargasso Sea.  I didn't get to it, too busy fishing supply pods that were more safely in open water.  I've infiltrated Svensgaard.  He has Superconductor and Synthetic Fossil Fuels to steal.

MY 2202.  Svensgaard finds an answer to my armor: an Isle of the Deep.  I guess he went Green.  Hm, no he didn't.  How did he get one of those?  It would be unusual to have the Pirates make a land base next to the Manifold Nexus.  I have trouble believing he's researched Centauri Meditation already.  In fact I don't need to believe anything about that.  I've infiltrated him, and he hasn't.

Oh wait, now I remember.  In this mod, Fundamentalist also gives +1 PLANET.  He must have been Fundamentalist at some point, but isn't now.  Likes Police State better.  Well good, that means he won't have any more of these things once he wears them out.

I infiltrate the Morganites.  He knows the Data Angels' comm frequency.  I try to pester him for it, but he won't speak to me.

I've got the tech for the Planetary Energy Grid.  It's expensive though.

[bvanevery]

MY 2207.  I steal Svensgaard's map.  Not sure why I didn't get one of his techs, but that happens sometimes.  I finally see where Roze is.  She's north of Morgan on the same landmass.  It's a long ways by boat and she may be landlocked.  Morgan still won't talk to me.

MY 2209.  A Pirate Gatling Foil attacks my Elite 0-4-4 Probe Team and almost kills it.  So, a naval war seems to be what we need to do now.  I've stolen Missiles from him but haven't prototyped them yet.  10 turns.  The Planetary Energy Grid is not feasible even in my capitol, as it would take 71 turns.

MY 2212.  I learn Polymorphic Software, which gives both Heavy Artillery and the Virtual World.  That, I will make an effort to build.  Seems like a weird pairing though, having this in a Conquer tech.  Also it provides Knowledge.  I switch to it and take the penalties.  A net -1 ECONOMY isn't so bad, but my PROBE is now -6.  Well, seems -2 is the cutoff.  1/2 cost for enemy probe team actions.

MY 2215.  Domai completes the Empath Guild and holds an election.  Lal bribes me to become the Governor.  Roze is quarrelsome with me but signs a Treaty.  I'm Democratic, don't know what her beef is.  Lal loves me and signs a Pact.  Seems I've now stolen what there is to steal from Svensgaard.

2:30 AM, gonna stop for the night.  I don't think Democratic Planned is giving me much GROWTH for having made these choices.  Only +2 and I feel runty.  That mindworm hit at the beginning did do my empire some substantial early game damage.

Tech-wise I am fine, but the Discover part of the tree feels unwieldy and haphazard.  I don't see why the Drones should be doing better at tech than myself.  Admittedly, the degree to which the AI cheats on Transcend is egregious.  In my mod I had to give Zhakarov a free Biology Lab in addition to his Network Nodes to make him competitive.  +2 RESEARCH really doesn't count for all that much in the face of the AI tech bonuses.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I am examining 1.2 alphax.txt using WinMerge.  I see map generator changes incorporated, good.  Foil Probe Team is present but you forgot to increase #UNITS count to 24.

Here you go.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I would also suggest adding Doctrine: Mobility as a prereq for Planetary Networks while you're at it.

I agree that it is a good thing to do but I am using a little bit relaxed tech tree linking. Each of my techs has one prerequisite from previous level and one from the level below it. Makes higher levels slightly more easy to achieve and promotes wider variability suitable for trade/steal/SP. Due to this setup my level 2 techs have only one prerequisite from level 1. If I want Planetary Networks to have two I need to move it to level 3. This is not that bad but maybe kind of late for probes.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Cavalier attitude towards expense of Scout production almost causes me to lose my 2nd base.

There is no way to move autocalculated Scout Patrol cost back to 1 unless some other unit values get screwed up as in original game. Notably two: 1) same weapon pure attacker infantry is more than twice cheaper than speeder, 2) Adding even level 2 armor on pure attacker immediately doubles its cost.
If you think this is reasonable, I can revert it back.

Another problem with Scout Patrol costs 1 is that its trance and police modifications also cost 1. That is not right. Trance patrol 100% negates native warfare from other faction. Six time cheaper defender is too cheap. Same consideration about double police unit. It is super beneficial as it quells more drones otherwise not achievable by current police rating and it also saves on support. So it should cost about twice as more as base one or at least 50% more. I can fix it by pricing these abilities at 4 something. Will see if it works.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Regarding psi attack/defense odds.
We need to have them so that the attack is slightly encouraged in a field yet there is still a chance to survive the attack especially with higher morale. At the same time they should be able to at least sometimes kill units in unprotected city.
The 5:4 odds seem to achieve this. It gives attacker in field 80% success chance, down to 70% against hardened, down to 50% against veteran. At the same time it gives 50% success chance against disciplined in base, down to 30% against hardened, down to 20% against veteran. So it seems quite balanced with great influence from morale level. Which is what I designed.
The only problem is that full combination of defense bonuses (base + sensor + trance) makes it completely non-penetrable. I am thinking to reducing trance bonus to 25% since I've reduced worms attack bonus.

[bvanevery]

If I want Planetary Networks to have two I need to move it to level 3.

Or you could just make an exception for this 1 case.  As the French say, "The Exception that proves the Rule."