I criticize crpg genre, DND

[BlaneckW]

Since I do not have more BE to criticize I will criticizing magic in the Fantasy CRPG genre in this article... in terms of how it is done with wizads, so that you end up just playing cleric and other stuff. The purpose of this thread is to entertainment.  I have not played many RPGS and am by no means an expert.  So I will pretend that entire CRPG world consists of NWN(1/2) and Diablo 2.  I also compare them to a mediocre gameboy game, and use incorrect grammar intetnionally.

I can't say I am RPG expert anyway.  I haven't Diablo 3, but would consider the term RPG to be more deriative of things that came from pen and paper (diablo is "action rpg"), but I did played Diablo 2 when I was a boy, and I played...  some of dungeon siege 2.  Both are considerly less RPG than NWN series.  I haven't been motivated to play Baludors Gate because it is party-based.

1) The way magic is approach in an CRPG. 

Now, I understand that DND games basically just spreadsheets.

But if I was going to play a role-playing game, and not just a spreadsheet, then with regard magic and the so-called role-playing aspect of the game I would want my wizard to consult with old tomes and spirits.  Now, I am not sure how this work gameplay, but I can criticize what wrong with NWN and I can talk about theme and setting.

After I was done with Diablo 2, I could say I became jaded to it.  It is an action game, not really an RPG.  But what it does do, it did right, like combat.  Except of course that you would want something with more depth in an rpg.  I cannot say the NWN combat system was done right, but it did have some depth, even if that depth would make you want to never play Wizard because who the [intercourse]wants to have to deal with wizard spell feats and all wizard does is buff anyway - while wearing pajamas..

Now I will move on to some more talk about setting and how I became the [jerk, sphincter]I am today.  You see, when I was a boy, I played a Game Boy Advance, called Sword of Mana.  Actually this game did not effect me deeply at all and I can't even claim it is a good game, but I liked a lot of the the theme and setting in it.  Anyway, the way that game starts it's magic system is, somehow, you end up in a mansion that is haunted.  I don't know why you end up in the mansion, Anyway, you kill zombies with a fire elemental you find in the mansion.. It talks and introduces itself, and this is the only time it the game it does so.  You take the fire elemental and you blast things with it.    Of course, it's only gameplay for a GBA game.  But clearly magical, like Howl's Moving Castle magical.

Incidentally, I couldn't get any videos of that game using it's magic apparently everyone else sucks at it.

It is clear to me that modern CRPG does everything wrong with magic - gameplay and setting. 

But in regards the game's story it isn't any wonder why some of these wordls end up a mess when you have people who throw fireballs walking around in broad daylight.  This is clearly insanity.

I played the beginning of Oblivion and I just didn't care for all this mage guild stuff - other than the fact that it didn't even have a questline worth a damn from the start like the Thieves guild, Oblivion magic came off as even more of a chore than NWN's, the latter which is not even worth bothering unless you are a DND [prostitute].  I'm not.  I like a lot of the setting, but they overdid it on the spreadsheet.

Setting wise, it's ridiculous in the firstplace for magic to be, for instance, openly taught in a university, because it would have to be controlled, and no sane government would allow it's teaching except where it can be utilized by the empire.  And/or either that, or it is done in secret (tolerated governmantally or not).  I prefer more along the latter idea.  Wizard should either be isolated and/or regulated by their cult.  They shouldn't go running around in public.  If it does then you should probably kill it.

2.)  Clearly we do not have enough gothic setting.  Diablo 2 did gothic, although we don't need bodies everywhere.

3.)  The obsession with glass-cannon wizards.  I couldn't give a [intercourse]about getting DND extend-spell-meta-magic-persistent feats.  Get rid of buffing and give me an armour-wearing sword wielder who studies magic on the side.  The magic character of the future would be the cleric/(less evil) blackgaurd, unless you can really give the magic element more RPG.  He should have familiars, and elemental spirits, and fiendish servants, though I don't see that it makes any sense that someone should wear pajamas outside of the house.

Also look at this guy from NWN2 (which was too easy a game, easier than NWN).  He is wearing the pajamas that you know that you should be wearing, but which the games never let you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL4HHtzAyvXFiqzGuwMX2ZSaHycfTZmioq&feature=player_detailpage&v=QeFGaqK6Afs#t=321

[Unorthodox]

Planescape: Torment.   Sounds custom made for you.

I haven't Diablo 3

Don't bother

, but would consider the term RPG to be more deriative of things that came from pen and paper (diablo is "action rpg"), but I did played Diablo 2 when I was a boy, and I played...  some of dungeon siege 2.  Both are considerly less RPG than NWN series.  I haven't been motivated to play Baludors Gate because it is party-based.

ew...you missed Dungeon siege I and jumped right to 2?  Sorry dude. 

1) The way magic is approach in an CRPG. 

Now, I understand that DND games basically just spreadsheets.

But if I was going to play a role-playing game, and not just a spreadsheet, then with regard magic and the so-called role-playing aspect of the game I would want my wizard to consult with old tomes and spirits.  Now, I am not sure how this work gameplay, but I can criticize what wrong with NWN and I can talk about theme and setting.

Final Fantasy X, of all things, handled this rather well.  You journeyed around the world getting progessively more powerful spirits to aid you by visiting their respective temples. 

Populous the beginning did similar IIRC...  I don't play a whole lot of games, just a couple off top of my head.

You know, Skyrim come to think of it works too.  You journey finding the ancient writings to decipher new words for your uberpowers. 

After I was done with Diablo 2, I could say I became jaded to it.  It is an action game, not really an RPG.  But what it does do, it did right, like combat.  Except of course that you would want something with more depth in an rpg.

The system is surprisingly deep if you peel back layers and fiddle with a couple numbers.  Look at some of the mods (some of which I worked on) ...ok, you probably can't anymore. 

I cannot say the NWN combat system was done right, but it did have some depth, even if that depth would make you want to never play Wizard because who the [intercourse]wants to have to deal with wizard spell feats and all wizard does is buff anyway - while wearing pajamas..

You bother with buffing?  Just more fireballs, man!

Now I will move on to some more talk about setting and how I became the [jerk, sphincter]I am today.  You see, when I was a boy, I played a Game Boy Advance, called Sword of Mana.  Actually this game did not effect me deeply at all and I can't even claim it is a good game, but I liked a lot of the the theme and setting in it.  Anyway, the way that game starts it's magic system is, somehow, you end up in a mansion that is haunted.  I don't know why you end up in the mansion, Anyway, you kill zombies with a fire elemental you find in the mansion.. It talks and introduces itself, and this is the only time it the game it does so.  You take the fire elemental and you blast things with it.    Of course, it's only gameplay for a GBA game.  But clearly magical, like Howl's Moving Castle magical.

God I'm old...when I was a kid there was no handheld gaming...

It is clear to me that modern CRPG does everything wrong with magic - gameplay and setting. 

But in regards the game's story it isn't any wonder why some of these wordls end up a mess when you have people who throw fireballs walking around in broad daylight.  This is clearly insanity.

I played the beginning of Oblivion and I just didn't care for all this mage guild stuff - other than the fact that it didn't even have a questline worth a damn from the start like the Thieves guild, Oblivion magic came off as even more of a chore than NWN's, the latter which is not even worth bothering unless you are a DND [prostitute].  I'm not.  I like a lot of the setting, but they overdid it on the spreadsheet.

Setting wise, it's ridiculous in the firstplace for magic to be, for instance, openly taught in a university, because it would have to be controlled, and no sane government would allow it's teaching except where it can be utilized by the empire.  And/or either that, or it is done in secret (tolerated governmantally or not).  I prefer more along the latter idea.  Wizard should either be isolated and/or regulated by their cult.  They shouldn't go running around in public.  If it does then you should probably kill it.

So, you like Howl's (which had governmment regulated wizardry IIRC as well) but, then not some of Miyazaki's other shows?  Kiki's delivery service, perchance?  Witch going into the big city to make her way, not being killed or even shunned by the city folk? 

2.)  Clearly we do not have enough gothic setting.  Diablo 2 did gothic, although we don't need bodies everywhere.

D2...gothic? 

lessee....maybe bit of act 1 with there being a graveyard and a cathedral, I guess....desert, act 2 does not compute...Jungle act 3, does not compute...Hell act IV, sure some areas...Act 5 mountains, does not compute.

3.)  The obsession with glass-cannon wizards.  I couldn't give a [intercourse]about getting DND extend-spell-meta-magic-persistent feats.  Get rid of buffing and give me an armour-wearing sword wielder who studies magic on the side.  The magic character of the future would be the cleric/(less evil) blackgaurd, unless you can really give the magic element more RPG.  He should have familiars, and elemental spirits, and fiendish servants, though I don't see that it makes any sense that someone should wear pajamas outside of the house.

 

Meh.  I'ld rather have an actual ROLE than have a character that has everything at his disposal.  One would assume years spent learning magic = years NOT spent training to wear armor/use swords.  If anything, most mages in games are not glass cannon ENOUGH imo. 

[BlaneckW]

ew...you missed Dungeon siege I and jumped right to 2?  Sorry dude. 

Was the first one any good?

The system is surprisingly deep if you peel back layers and fiddle with a couple numbers.  Look at some of the mods (some of which I worked on) ...ok, you probably can't anymore.

I'd be willing to look at them for nostalgia's sake.

God I'm old...when I was a kid there was no handheld gaming...

 
Well, I did later play some of the classics on emulator.

So, you like Howl's (which had governmment regulated wizardry IIRC as well) but, then not some of Miyazaki's other shows?  Kiki's delivery service, perchance?  Witch going into the big city to make her way, not being killed or even shunned by the city folk? 

I haven't watched all of Miyazaki, but Germany had folk witches who were not shunned by the public but the government discouraged them because they cut into the profit of physicians.

Meh.  I'd rather have an actual ROLE than have a character that has everything at his disposal.  One would assume years spent learning magic = years NOT spent training to wear armor/use swords. 

 
That assumes magic in a setting in which it is particularly available, something I criticize.

[Unorthodox]

ew...you missed Dungeon siege I and jumped right to 2?  Sorry dude. 

Was the first one any good?

Dungeon Siege I...

The game itself is definitely better than 2, but it was advertised as more of a game development kit for fans to make oodles of mods with....that portion was a failure of epic grandeur.   

I'd be willing to look at them for nostalgia's sake.

I honestly don't know if they are still around.  Eastern Sun would be the one to look up first.  It's basically diablo 3 done right.  (indeed they stole most of that mod for diablo 3...)  The old site that used to host all the mods is long gone, so don't know where to go these days. 

I haven't watched all of Miyazaki, but Germany had folk witches who were not shunned by the public but the government discouraged them because they cut into the profit of physicians.

Even today there are areas of Africa where the government is heavily influenced by witch doctors.  Various historical accounts of leaders consulting oracles/religion for guidance. 

That assumes magic in a setting in which it is particularly available, something I criticize.

Personally, I see religion and magic as being 2 sides of the same coin.  Power from ancient spirits, power from the divine...all the same, IMO.  Indeed, I can call up numberous religions that draw from spirits rather than 'god'.  As such, it's not hard to imagine highly organized magical groups.

[BlaneckW]

It's not hard to imagine highly organized magical groups.

Unless it's not very powerful magic, or is perfectly benign, you would belong to the government - or be very beholden to one of said groups, as responsible for it's members.  If you have unregistered wizards running around, and if one happens to lose their mind, he goes around throwing fireballs.   Oblivion actually has a mad wizard that does this in-game.  DND backstory has occasional periods in history where armies face off against an insane wizard.

It is, shall we say, a bit of a plot hole for it to remain unaddressed institutionally.  The only setting I can imagine it otherwise would be backwaters, wilderness, etc, probably with magekillers sent out to deal with the more black-hat instances before they become too big a problem.

[Unorthodox]

It's not hard to imagine highly organized magical groups.

Unless it's not very powerful magic, you would belong to the government - or be very beholden to one of said groups, as responsible for it's members.  If you have unregistered wizards running around, and if one happens to lose their mind, he goes around throwing fireballs.   Oblivion actually has a mad wizard that does this in-game.  DND backstory has occasional periods in history where armies face off against an insane wizard.

It is, shall we say, a bit of a plot hole for it to remain unaddressed institutionally.

And I personally can't think of a game myself where you are not the 'good' wizard, often backed by insert game world's official magical governing counsel, and anything you face is not handled reasonably within the story. 

Diablo 2:   Anything you're fighting escaped from hell, and you've been sent by whatever wizarding thing the sorceress comes from, it was some group/school different from the male wizards in 1 and 3. 

Didn't play NWN.   

Torchlight, you've been sent to investigate reports of odd things by whatever the group is.

Basically, games are typically you being the agent of whatever group because some really odd stuff is going on.  You don't typically get a game about an ordinary every day world/how things are supposed to be working.  Yeah, often it's not explained well, but that's usually the 'story line'. 

Skyrim handled what you are looking for rather well.  The magic community was shunned almost universally, staying hidden in their little school.  Sure, there was the odd court wizard here or there, but they were small time for the most part, you would be lucky to get anything useful from them.  Then there were little cults practicing forbidden magics off in random caves in the wilderness.  A few of them insane, yes. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Odd; in most of the fantasy I've read -and this applies to your pre-modern Merlins and such, too- wizards usually work alone and tend to be jealous of their knowledge.  There's a servant, frequently enough, because you don't expect a wizard to chop his own firewood, and said servant is sometimes an apprentice, but that's about it.  I can't even think of a lot of team-ups until fairly recently, stuff written in my lifetime, let alone guilds.

Magic wielders traditionally live in some degree of isolation, right down to village wise women.

Interesting that gaming usually puts them all in unions and schools...

[Unorthodox]

Odd; in most of the fantasy I've read -and this applies to your pre-modern Merlins and such, too- wizards usually work alone and tend to be jealous of their knowledge.  There's a servant, frequently enough, because you don't expect a wizard to chop his own firewood, and said servant is sometimes an apprentice, but that's about it.  I can't even think of a lot of team-ups until fairly recently, stuff written in my lifetime, let alone guilds.

Magic wielders traditionally live in some degree of isolation, right down to village wise women.

Interesting that gaming usually puts them all in unions and schools...

I think that's for the player's benefit.  How else are you, as the player, supposed to learn all this magic, if not from an organization?  Surely, you're not going to spend hundreds of years of study off on your own. 

With Harry Potter out now, I think that's become the new norm, as well. 

[Buster's Uncle]

I suppose there's a fantasy story idea in there - the transition to magic guilds as the local renaissance equivalent makes travel and communication more reliable/a better idea...

[Buster's Uncle]

But then, what's the renaissance like in a world where magic works?

[BlaneckW]

That depends on the degree to which it works.  If it can't be used very dangerously then it is ignored, since bankers are more dangerous anyway.  Otherwise, I did attempt to give you a description in my last post: it would be owned by the military.

Diablo 2:   Anything you're fighting escaped from hell, and you've been sent by whatever wizarding thing the sorceress comes from, it was some group/school different from the male wizards in 1 and 3. 

Isolated jungle coven that draws recruits from villages.  The D3 wizard backstory sounded stupid.

[Unorthodox]

Isolated jungle coven that draws recruits from villages.  The D3 wizard backstory sounded stupid.

I'm 90% sure that's not the full backstory, just the short description that's in online places.  The manual had a full page on each character. 

[BlaneckW]

The manual had a full page on each character.

The fuller depictions in the manual for the game I didn't buy are what sold me.

[Unorthodox]

Yeah....that there's some real crap...

The short description:

A rebellious woman who has wrested the secrets of magic use from the male dominated Mage-Clans of the East, the Sorceress is an expert in mystical creation ex nihilo. Though somewhat lacking in the skills of hand-to-hand combat, she compensates for this weakness with fierce combative magic for both offense and defense. Solitary and reclusive, the Sorceress acts based on motives and ethics inscrutable to most, and sometimes seems capricious and even spiteful. In reality, she understands the struggle between Order and Chaos all too clearly, as well as her role as a warrior in this battle.

Yeah, that sounds like a lone wolf from some backwater area...Doesn't really jive with the full history:

The female mage clan of Zann Esu is one of the oldest of the ancient clans, although little is actually known about them. Centuries ago, the fourteen powerful covens of Esu witches convened for the first time in generations. What they discussed is not known, but the witches left behind their former lives and, as a group, disappeared into the Eastern jungles.

The exact location of their community is a mystery. Until recently, their only contact with the outside world occurred during the recruitment missions. Once every seven years, the Zann Esu visit certain families across Sanctuary. These families have only one thing in common - they each have a seven-year-old daughter. Always good-natured and polite, the Zann Esu visitors meet the girls, ask a few questions and then leave. A select few of the girls are visited a second time and offered apprenticeships. The families of those chosen enjoy good fortune for many years.

The Zann Esu, or Sorceresses as they are generally known, are on a quest for the "perfect" magic in its purest form. They feel that the other disciplines of magic are haphazard, and have instead chosen to focus strictly upon elemental magic. They mold the base elements into whatever magical forms they need - threatening all other magic disciplines with obsolescence. In order to achieve perfection in these elemental transmutations, they choose only those daughters of Sanctuary with the highest level of attunement to the magical elements.

The Sorceresses believe that it is through the search for perfection that they will attain ultimate purity and ascend to their destined role as the most powerful mages in Sanctuary. For centuries they have studied in secret, perfecting their art and biding their time until the Emergence of Evil. Then, they will face their greatest challenge, either proving the purity of their magic or fading from existence.

The Zann Esu oracles have decreed that the time of the Emergence is at hand. The destruction of the Prime Evils is to be the great test of their clan. Recently, Sorceresses have appeared mysteriously throughout Sanctuary to do battle with the minions of Evil wherever they are found.

Traits and Abilities
Athletic, affable, and self-assured, Sorceresses hardly seem like scholarly bibliophiles hidden away from civilization. Sorceresses possess many of the same skills as the male members of the Eastern mage clans, but excel at the use of Elemental magic. Like most mages, they consider melee combat vulgar, and use magic almost exclusively to fight their enemies.

14 covens bury themselves in the jungle 'centuries' ago, and go on recruiting trips every 7 years, we have no concept of how large they are today.  IIRC there was something about the whole act 3 temples and whatnot being sorceress made, but I could be mistaken, it's been a few since I played. 

Point is, they were an organized group, one of the most ancient in the world, and you were sent out specifically to stop the prime evils. 

[BlaneckW]

Point is, they were an organized group, one of the most ancient in the world, and you were sent out specifically to stop the prime evils.

Organized group hidden itself away in the jungle.