Author Topic: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth  (Read 25855 times)

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Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2014, 05:13:36 AM »
They were just using Yang to quip on a controversial issue.
They were doing that with pretty much all of them.

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2014, 05:17:24 AM »
The big question for me is, "What makes a compelling faction?"
Connection with the real world.  All of the AC factions represent pertinent questions; Zhakarov isn't just "the science faction", he represents the belief that science can solve all of our problems, held for instance by Americans, taken to it's conclusion.  A Sid Mier design Zhakarov wouldn't have drones from their faction government ignoring the workers, he really would just be the science faction with the science bonus.

And sorry, but I do not get the feeling that the two games hankering after Alpha Centauri do anything more than work with the most banal philosophical standpoint.  Sid said he didn't want to speculate on what the future would be, but they did, with three very basic, abstract, general possibilities, "supermacy", "harmony", and the turtle.  Ultimately AC's factions are just representations of modern day questions.  That is the difference between science fiction, drawing on real life (like Dune or Asimov), and science fiction.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 05:46:52 AM by BlaneckW »

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2014, 05:48:58 AM »
Personally, I think the most sensible dyads are: University/Believers, Peacekeepers/Hive, and Morganites/Gaians. The Spartans stand apart, inimical to everyone else, but content in their isolation.
In the fiction, the Spartans fought the Peackeepers.  Yang took his people and left for another continent (unlike the game, the novel has them land on the same continent.)  You don't see the Chinese squabbling with the U.N, do you?

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2014, 05:54:33 AM »
Possibly a fourth and fifth resource could be added, namely water and a "harvestable" resource similar to Tiberium, Vespene Gas, or Spice in other science fiction settings.
Planet pearls, as it calls the energy credits you get for defeating mind worms.

Offline JarlWolf

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2014, 08:10:17 AM »
Be sure to look at other people's factions in the modding department; Sigma, myself and others have designed many factions you might find interesting.


"The chains of slavery are not eternal."

Offline Trenacker

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2014, 10:59:48 PM »
Quote from: Dio
I always felt that both Yang and Zakharov were into genetics. However, the major difference between the two comes from the fact Yang sees Genetics from a philosophical viewpoint while Zakharov looks at it from a scientific viewpoint.

Upon reflection, I think that's correct, although, since the Peacekeepers originally began with the Biogenetics tech, that makes three original factions already offering essentially distinct philosophies on the Genome. Still, the Ascendancy seems to me to have the essential "guts" of what it takes to be a faction, especially given the direction that the designers went with SMAX.

Quote from: BlaneckW
Connection with the real world.  All of the AC factions represent pertinent questions; Zhakarov isn't just "the science faction", he represents the belief that science can solve all of our problems, held for instance by Americans, taken to it's conclusion.  A Sid Mier design Zhakarov wouldn't have drones from their faction government ignoring the workers, he really would just be the science faction with the science bonus.

While I'm not sure that I agree that most Americans take that position, it is certainly Zhakarov's. Clearly, the Ascendancy is merely one meditation on one particular theme. Zhakarov wants the answers that lead to control in a very general sense; the Ascendancy has already determined that salvation lies down one very particular path.

Quote from: BlaneckW
In the fiction, the Spartans fought the Peackeepers.  Yang took his people and left for another continent (unlike the game, the novel has them land on the same continent.)  You don't see the Chinese squabbling with the U.N, do you?

In a 2011 podcast for Three Moves Ahead, Brian Reynolds described the Spartans as militarists driven by a lust for power. I don't know how comfortable I am with that articulation. I think that Yang, who recognizes no morality, is the more natural antagonist to the Peacekeepers, good humanists that they are. The Spartans would form a second, weaker dyad.
"There's another old saying, Senator. Don't piss down my back and tell me it rains." - Julius Augustus Caesar, attrib.

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2014, 10:03:47 AM »
I don't really care what direction the SMAX people went.

Offline Trenacker

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2014, 12:44:34 PM »
Might I redirect to a different question? Does The Ascendancy, with its great project of producing a genetically-engineered super-human, have what it takes to be a stand-alone faction, or should that project merely be one facet of what is being done by The University or The Hive?

I've renamed the Lord's Believers to The Convent, largely for aesthetic reasons. The Exiled are The Labyrinth and will be reimagined. No new ideas yet.

I've added a new faction, The Dispossessed, created by a group of stowaways placed aboard the Unity with Santiago's help. In return for the resources necessary to see her own, hand-picked lieutenants selected for the Unity mission and  assigned to a particular cryo-bay, she assisted certain countries excluded from the Unity mission to put a contingent aboard the ship.

There are many different ways to skin a cat. The factions of Alpha Centauri emphasize certain ideologies, certain philosophies. Some are tied to the natural evolution of the professional ethos that underlies particular professions.

I wonder: Who would be the likely leader of The Restoration? A Chief of Security? (I've reflagged Yang as Executive Officer, but not necessarily head of security.) A head fire protection technician? A quartermaster?

What about a faction based on Wittfogel's concept of hydraulic empire, whereby a despotism is the result of the ruler's monopoly on water and an independent nobility fails to emerge because it cannot compete with the resources of the centralized state, necessarily dominated by the bureaucracy required to manage and administer hydraulic engineering projects, mostly build by slaves?

Speaking of slaves, a faction with a plantation economy, based on the exploitation of unfree (but not Drone) labor might be interesting. I wonder, however, if such a faction could succeed in a case where fugitive slaves would not be immediately obvious and subject to forced return, but probably there is a technological "solution" to that problem in a setting like this one.

I've changed Imre-Meinertzhagen to Consolidated Transport. Their leader, director of his company's UNITY operations, is a French Canadian.

Also, I've assigned countries of origin to each faction and begun to think about whether national allegiance might be significant. Alpha Centauri identified countries of origin but not national allegiance, and indeed the game stands out for defying gender and cultural conventions typical of computer games both then and now. Either nationality was assumed to mean relatively little by the time the Unity launched, or else the designers simply didn't bother to paint with nationalisms when they had ideologies equally as compelling and universal in appeal.

Anyway, thanks for engaging! I look forward to your further thoughts.
"There's another old saying, Senator. Don't piss down my back and tell me it rains." - Julius Augustus Caesar, attrib.

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2014, 01:12:20 PM »
Might I redirect to a different question? Does The Ascendancy, with its great project of producing a genetically-engineered super-human, have what it takes to be a stand-alone faction, or should that project merely be one facet of what is being done by The University or The Hive?
The University would be better able to accomplish it, given their focus on scientific development.  But for any of the SMAC factions it would merely be a side-project.  The University is interested in the development of scientific knowledge in general, for which the military or genetic modifications are merely a tool. 

The Hive would want to obtain said research for parity with the other factions, and as useful for Hive plans (such as super-soldiers, improved research, or the gene-jank), but have spent most of their time digging fortresses.  As Hive legalist philosophy would go, advanced armaments aren't researched and implemented for nothing, but it is more useful to implement what meagre means you have today.

I think that Yang, who recognizes no morality, is the more natural antagonist to the Peacekeepers, good humanists that they are. The Spartans would form a second, weaker dyad.
Yang has very little interest in even interacting with the Peacekeepers, who are conquered by the Spartans in the novels anyway.  In the fiction, Yang isn't specifically antagonistic to any of the factions because he keeps aloof from them.  His goals are to remain immortal under the earth, like Qin Shi Huangdi, and not to pursue absurd ideological quarrels.  To maintain parity, he allies with the Gaians, who are also falling behind, against the Morgans, I believe.  But he had earlier purchased products from them, with the later consideration that Morgan was making too much profit.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 01:38:58 PM by BlaneckW »

Offline Trenacker

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2014, 03:42:30 PM »
Should The Ascendancy forswear cybernetics and focus on bio-genetics to a much greater degree, striving to "grow" the perfect human through science rather than modify an imperfect human after birth? What if they didn't use drones? Other visions of similar societies, including Battletech's Clans, involve a sort of "bondsman" or subservient class, but maybe The Ascendancy wouldn't want the burden?

I appreciate Yang's hermetic tendencies, but couldn't Santiago be described in the same terms?

Is Santiago an isolationist or a would-be conqueror?

I've been using existing source material, namely the manuals and GURPS sourcebook, for information and inspiration. That said, I'm open to changes in faction design even for original factions.

The question surrounding the Spartan dyad is, I think, whether the Spartans are evangelical in their beliefs. If so, then the Peacekeepers make a natural adversary. The GURPS material indicates that the Spartans worry about the "corrupting" influence of other factions on humanity's path to salvation-through-strength, but it seems counter-intuitive to me that a faction dedicated to honing perfect warriors would also wish to conscript colonists that reject their values. Unwilling recruits make poor soldiers. I don't see how the Spartans achieve their goal of forging perfect warriors any more quickly by attempting to conquer peoples who, according to their philosophy, should soon succumb to Planet irrespective of whether or not the Spartans move against them and well before they lure too many Spartans into questioning the Federation's philosophy. Ultimately, I'd imagine that the Spartans would simply wander off on their own, bunker down (literally), and try to avoid contact with the other factions in much the same respect as Yang. I assume that, using the Spartan model, Santiago would recognize the need for helots.

Yang. He's an interesting one. Is he Kim Jong-il, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse-Tung, rolled into one? The Hive evokes the idea of the philosopher king, but Yang is clearly a tyrant. But, how, like the Spartans, to deal with other factions? Would the Chairman live in constant fear of revolt? Almost certainly. Regarding settlement as a zero-sum game, he must be predisposed to attempt to eliminate rival factions whenever the opportunity arises. If Santiago would be disposed to simply seize the resources of other factions, Yang might be more disposed to steal (and nerve-staple) drones and talents. Finally, if the Spartans are a cause for concern, at least Santiago's attitudes on equality and voluntarism would be common touchstones with the more passive factions. Yang presents a humanitarian conundrum.

Looking out toward gameplay, I want to provide each player with a portfolio describing their faction, the opportunity to give a few orders relative to preparations for Planetfall during the immediate aftermath of Zakharov's proposal to sunder the expedition, and a list of primary objectives for the first few cycles of gameplay. Players will manage budgets, select policies, and communicate with moderators in the role of advisers, lieutenants, and other subordinates. Players will post missives and conduct negotiations; moderators will provide injections (events, both specific and general) and manage conflict.
"There's another old saying, Senator. Don't piss down my back and tell me it rains." - Julius Augustus Caesar, attrib.

Offline Dio

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2014, 04:35:12 PM »
I think Santiago is a would be conquerer more than a isolationist. Her primary concern is survival on planet and guarding her people. As such, she would use any means necessary to ensure this occurs. That includes eliminating anyone who she percieves as threatening her social order. Another rivalry occurs between Santiago and Deidre. This happens because Deidre sees planet as a ally while Santiago thinks of planet as a obstacle to be overcome. Lastly, I think Yang is more of a protectionist and tends to simply isolate his people from having any unnecessary contact with other factions. This means he would defend his people against any percieved 'security threats' by simply having them destroyed.

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2014, 04:50:27 PM »
Should The Ascendancy forswear cybernetics and focus on bio-genetics to a much greater degree, striving to "grow" the perfect human through science rather than modify an imperfect human after birth?
No.  If you're basing this on BE's "Supremacy", there's no reason to do that solely based on the philosophical standpoint given.  While University focuses on the development of scientific knowledge, Supremacy focuses on the usage of technology to overcome their new environment, and there isn't any prejudice against cybernetics given, unlike, say, in Dune.

What if they didn't use drones? Other visions of similar societies, including Battletech's Clans, involve a sort of "bondsman" or subservient class, but maybe The Ascendancy wouldn't want the burden?
They would likely use robots for a lot manual labour, but Alpha Centauri doesn't have a robot civilian other than the limited crawler.  I don't think it would have been unfeasible for a space colony to have extensively used robots even ten or twenty years ago.

Is Santiago an isolationist or a would-be conqueror?
She is isolationist/conqueror on the basis of her "survivalist" philosophy.  She practiced both on said basis in Journey to Centauri.  She wanted a space pod of her own to practice said philosophy over what she perceived as the "politics" of the other factions.  She had hoped Yang might be part of her faction, but their philosophies and practices are different.

I've been using existing source material, namely the manuals and GURPS sourcebook, for information and inspiration. That said, I'm open to changes in faction design even for original factions.
I'm not certain that they need modifications, other than the game needing more options for the Gaians.

The question surrounding the Spartan dyad is, I think, whether the Spartans are evangelical in their beliefs. If so, then the Peacekeepers make a natural adversary.
They're not "evangelical" but would simply get tired of the U.N. faction, whose philosophy isn't based on survival in their new environment.

The GURPS material indicates that the Spartans worry about the "corrupting" influence of other factions on humanity's path to salvation-through-strength, but it seems counter-intuitive to me that a faction dedicated to honing perfect warriors would also wish to conscript colonists that reject their values.
Conscription doesn't generally consider the values of those conscripted.

Unwilling recruits make poor soldiers. I don't see how the Spartans achieve their goal of forging perfect warriors any more quickly by attempting to conquer peoples who, according to their philosophy, should soon succumb to Planet irrespective of whether or not the Spartans move against them and well before they lure too many Spartans into questioning the Federation's philosophy.
The Spartan's survivalism is pro-active.  You are projecting idealism onto her that I don't think she has.

Yang. He's an interesting one. Is he Kim Jong-il, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse-Tung, rolled into one?
No.  Yang is based on Shang Yang, Han Fei, and Qin Shi Haungdi with their legalist governmental philosophy, and Taosim with it's control of the body and self, the latter of which is well-developed in Journey to Centauri.  There are no references to Communism and his story works on the basis that Chinese government and governmental philosophy would return to it's roots.  After studying at a military university it is mentioned that he taught combat methods in the "Golden Emperor's" army.

Would the Chairman live in constant fear of revolt?
The Chairman is paranoid, but fear would not be the right word.  The Hive is generally quiescent, like Yang, as it was made to be.

Almost certainly. Regarding settlement as a zero-sum game, he must be predisposed to attempt to eliminate rival factions whenever the opportunity arises.
Only over the long run. 

If Santiago would be disposed to simply seize the resources of other factions, Yang might be more disposed to steal drones and talents.
That is what Qin Shi Haungdi did, making offers to try to persuade defection.

Yang presents a humanitarian conundrum.
That doesn't matter.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:22:50 PM by BlaneckW »

Offline Trenacker

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2014, 10:35:26 PM »
Quote from: BlaneckW
No.  If you're basing this on BE's "Supremacy", there's no reason to do that solely based on the philosophical standpoint given.  While University focuses on the development of scientific knowledge, Supremacy focuses on the usage of technology to overcome their new environment, and there isn't any prejudice against cybernetics given, unlike, say, in Dune.

I had perceived an opportunity, in assigning different affinities, to further differentiate the factions.

I used the names, but not the definitions, provided by BE. My vision for affinities does not speak to factions' attitudes toward contact with Earth.

My vision for "Purity" involves an emphasis on celebrating the wholly human, on ideas and modes of civilization remembered from Earth, and on rejection of evolutionary change driven by either technological enhancement or Planet. The latter is, of course, impossible, but the idea is that, through manipulation of the genome, scientists could essentially channel human evolution down an "Earth-like" path. Thus, the logic: if Augments are super-human, at least they are not un-human. (Granted, there is a good deal of self-delusion involved for any faction that chooses Purity, but I think that's the point. All ideology in Alpha Centauri is extreme.)

"Supremacy" calls for, or at least accepts, radical change to the human body and mind to overcome Planet's environment, and is therefore distinct from Purity, which doesn't reject technology, but instead tries to preserve the Man's terrestrial character in the application of it.

"Harmony" dictates that humanity must abandon its terrestrial identity, both physically and spiritually if you will, to successfully colonize Planet.

Circling back to the question of distinctions between The University, The Hive, and The Ascendancy, I would offer this vision:

Prokhor Zakharov, Sheng-ji Yang, and Tahmineh Pahlavi (the Ascendancy faction head, UNITY's former Chief Geneticist) are our strolling. At length, they discover the way blocked by a large wall.

Zakharov's followers take rock samples and build a harmonic resonator to literally shake the wall apart.

Yang steps back, assesses his options, and orders his followers to create a human chain to ascend the wall and lift him over. Only a few of the Hive colonists reach the top, and most are unable to follow, but the Chairman succeeds in reaching the other side.

Pahlavi returns to her lab and births an Augment who, one week later, climbs the rock wall bare-handed and leaps down on the other side.

Again, I think there is a significant difference in the viewpoints held by The University and the Ascendancy, respectively. The University has chosen science, but not specific solutions to every problem. The Ascendancy has not only chosen science, but also a specific solution set.

Quote from: BlaneckW
They would likely use robots for a lot manual labour, but Alpha Centauri doesn't have a robot civilian other than the limited crawler.  I don't think it would have been unfeasible for a space colony to have extensively used robots even ten or twenty years ago.

Agreed. I think that 'droids would be a neat addition to drones and talents.

Quote from: BlaneckW
She is isolationist/conqueror on the basis of her "survivalist" philosophy.

My question is whether she wants to produce the perfect battalion, essentially disinterested in the fates of her neighbors except as they affect the success of her project, or if she is determined to force others -- others who are by definition less worthy -- to join her cause.

Quote from: BlaneckW
I'm not certain that they need modifications, other than the game needing more options for the Gaians.

I think there's room for factions that explore other facets of human nature and thought. Can you elaborate on your interest in "more options for the Gaians"?

Quote from: BlaneckW
They're not "evangelical" but would simply get tired of the U.N. faction, whose philosophy isn't based on survival in their new environment.

Getting tired of a blowhard is one thing, but as long as Santiago kept to herself, I imagine that Yang would seem to pose the greater concern. The U.N. today is uncomfortable with, but essentially tolerant of tyrants who make few waves, especially if they aren't committing genocide. The fact that Santiago's followers go willingly might cause Lal to hold his tongue, at first.

Quote from: BlaneckW
Conscription doesn't generally consider the values of those conscripted.

Those who debate the merits of conscription do, however.

Spartan society works because its members are by and large dedicated to Santiago's project and have chosen a martial lifestyle. At Planetfall, Santiago has an essentially all-volunteer force. Later, her ranks are swelled by children fostered in an environment designed to predispose them to the hard life of a soldier. Not so, the colonists of other factions. Pressed into conforming with Santiago's rigid doctrines, they would pose a major liability, both in terms of potential revolt and because they won't make ideal soldiers.

Quote from: BlaneckW
No.  Yang is based on Shang Yang, Han Fei, and Qin Shi Haungdi with their legalist governmental philosophy, and Taosim with it's control of the body and self, the latter of which is well-developed in Journey to Centauri.  There are no references to Communism and his story works on the basis that Chinese government and governmental philosophy would return to it's roots.  After studying at a military university it is mentioned that he taught combat methods in the "Golden Emperor's" army.

I understand the partial inspiration. Potentially the surveillance aspect is a modern twist on a millennium-old concept.

Is Yang unhinged to a greater extent than other leaders? Is he a worse sociopath? I don't particularly care about how he regards his own motivations. Seen and judged by a rational observer, is he no better than Mao? Than Stalin? His society surely resembles Communist dystopias.

Under the Chinese emperors, the quiescent peasantry could expect to grow prosperous under the right conditions. That doesn't seem possible in Yang's society.

Quote from: BlaneckW
The Chairman is paranoid, but fear would not be the right word.  The Hive is generally quiescent, like Yang, as it was made to be.

I read: "ready to boil over." Unless he's created a North Korea analogue in which the populace is literally brain-washed.

Quote from: BlaneckW
Only over the long run.

Probably there would be many more obvious opportunities to eliminate competitors at the time of Planetfall than after, once they have build fortifications and viable economies capable of withstanding minor catastrophes.

Quote from: BlaneckW
That is what Qin Shi Haungdi did, making offers to try to persuade defection.

That makes Yang the greater threat.

Quote from: BlaneckW
That doesn't matter.

I disagree. It makes him the more odious to the Peacekeepers than the Spartans, who, for all their problematic philosophies, are both more respectful of individualism and less aggressive. The Spartans pose a major, but not an urgent, problem from a humanist perspective. Yang is the greater problem at start.
"There's another old saying, Senator. Don't piss down my back and tell me it rains." - Julius Augustus Caesar, attrib.

Offline BlaneckW

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2014, 11:46:09 PM »
Your Supremacy and Purity concepts lack distinction from each-other..

Quote
My question is whether she wants to produce the perfect battalion, essentially disinterested in the fates of her neighbors except as they affect the success of her project.
She isn't.  She isn't an idealist, at least as such, she's even anti-political.

Quote
If she is determined to force others -- others who are by definition less worthy -- to join her cause.
She would attempt to simply conquer them once her faction grew to their border, though she might be sensible enough not to start a war that would cause terrible losses for her faction.  The latter is debatable.  Santiago seems like she might be a stubborn, but not necessarily fanatical, or at least not as much as Miriam.

Quote
I think there's room for factions that explore other facets of human nature and thought. Can you elaborate on your interest in "more options for the Gaians"?
The Gaians delve into psionics, but this isn't sufficiently expanded on - at least at a rate to make Gaians survivable militarily.

Quote
I imagine that Yang would seem to pose the greater concern to the U.N. faction.
Yang may choose not even to reveal his faction sufficiently to be criticized.

Quote
Spartan society works because its members are by and large dedicated to Santiago's project and have chosen a martial lifestyle.
Santiago would conquer the other factions for their mis-use of resources if for no other reason.

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I understand the partial inspiration.
It's not really a partial inspiration as I understand it.  He has studied, and teaches, legalist and Taoist philosophy, practices breathe techniques and other physical control, and is likely named after Shang Yang. 

Quote
Is Yang unhinged to a greater extent than other leaders? Is he a worse sociopath? Seen and judged by a rational observer, is he no better than Mao? Than Stalin? His society surely resembles Communist dystopias.
He isn't unhinged, he is controlled.  You may call him a worse sociopath than the other faction leaders.  He is "better", more intelligent, and capable of running the Hive with less death than the Communist figures.

Quote
Under the Chinese emperors, the quiescent peasantry could expect to grow prosperous under the right conditions. That doesn't seem possible in Yang's society.

I read: "ready to boil over."
I don't understand what you mean by prosperity. Where there isn't manual work to be done, Yang at least desires quiet contentment or meditation, such as in the gardens, if you aren't capable of advancing past manual labour.

Quote
It makes him the more odious to the Peacekeepers than the Spartans, who, for all their problematic philosophies, are both more respectful of individualism and less aggressive.
The Peacekeepers don't matter.  They can't even stand up to the Spartans.


Offline Trenacker

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 - New Faction Concepts Inspired by Beyond Earth
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2014, 12:24:24 AM »
Quote from: BlaneckW
Your Supremacy and Purity concepts lack distinction from each-other..

Purity is about trying not to let Planet, or cybernetics, alter humanity's path. It attempts to prune, not splice or "hack." While a Purist faction might engineer a more perfect human, the modifications would result in a more perfect organic specimen, not a cyborg. I agree that the Ascendancy may not really "fit" here.

Supremacy is about "hacking" humanity, using technology to drive rapid change and rejecting "natural" evolutionary growth.

Harmony is about allowing Planet dictate humanity's evolutionary future.

Quote from: BlaneckW
She isn't.  She isn't an idealist, at least as such, she's even anti-political.

I don't understand why you think I see her as an idealist.

Even if one argues that Santiago isn't trying to create the perfect soldier, merely to preserve humanity, that doesn't immediately equate to lack of concern about how absorbing other factions might "dilute" the Spartan ethos.

Quote from: BlaneckW
She would attempt to simply conquer them once her faction grew to their border, though she might be sensible enough not to start a war that would cause terrible losses for her faction.  The latter is debatable.  Santiago seems like she might be a stubborn, but not necessarily fanatical, or at least not as much as Miriam.

I find it hard to balance the militarist vision of Santiago with her survivalist posture, which is probably why I tend to emphasize the latter. Given his focus on social control, Yang seems the more obvious imperialist.

Why should Santiago fight wars? To prevent other leaders from taking their colonies down the "wrong" path? That makes sense, but it doesn't speak to how Santiago would successfully reconcile differing attitudes about how to survive the onslaught of Planet. Not everybody is soldiering material. Her attempts to build an elite fighting force speak to a certain chauvinism, if you will, that I think would probably restrain her from conscripting others.

Quote from: BlaneckW
The Gaians delve into psionics, but this isn't sufficiently expanded on - at least at a rate to make Gaians survivable militarily.

Makes sense, although I fear that psionics are rarely done well in science fiction. How to keep them from being over-powering?

I've always liked Dune's mentats concept, by the way. Maybe we can do something with that as well. Not as a replacement for psionics, but as a counterpoint? Yang's solution?

Quote from: BlaneckW
Yang may choose not even to reveal his faction sufficiently to be criticized.

That's fine, but I do think that, once revealed, the Peacekeepers would find him the most worrisome of their adversaries.

Quote from: BlaneckW
Santiago would conquer the other factions for their mis-use of resources if for no other reason.

While I agree that she would worry about this problem, her philosophy also suggests that the other factions will inevitably fail. That means that most of her wars will be wars of choice, assuming she doesn't land in a location hemmed in by other factions.

Quote from: BlaneckW
It's not really a partial inspiration as I understand it.  He has studied, and teaches, legalist and Taoist philosophy, practices breathe techniques and other physical control, and is likely named after Shang Yang.

Yes, but the image conveyed by the GURPS material is decidedly dystopian.

[quote-"BlaneckW"]I don't understand what you mean by prosperity. Where there isn't manual work to be done, Yang at least desires quiet contentment or meditation, such as in the gardens, if you aren't capable of advancing past manual labour.[/quote]

Peasants under legalist government during the Warring States period could expect to be left alone by their government so long as they paid taxes, sent their sons into the army, and forswore from rebellion. They could reap the fruit of their harvests during years when the floods were predictable and enemy armies did not come pillaging. As a practical matter, they were beyond the immediate reach of the emperor. Landlords, tax farmers, and magistrates might be a reality, but they were not omnipresent. Yang has added an Orwellian angle to his implementation of the philosophy that implies that his people are, or would be, less happy than the Chinese peasants of old.

Quote from: BlaneckW
The Peacekeepers don't matter.  They can't even stand up to the Spartans.

I read the books long ago and don't intend to follow the canon per-se.

Definitely continue this line of discussion, but have you any further thoughts on The Ascendancy as a faction (or as to whether it should be a sub-faction), Estado Novo, or the others?

Again, Consolidated Transport is a group of contractors that hope to restore contact with Earth while, in the meantime, providing competition to Morgan Industries.

The Estado Novo is a corporatist state based on a tripartite caste system: peasants, priests, and warriors.

The Labyrinth is inspired by the Brotherhood of Nod. The intent here is to ensure continued influence of Brotherhood agents over human development.

The Dispossessed might be stowaways from nations like the Republic of South Africa, Taiwan, Rhodesia, and Israel.

The Restoration are all about restoring contact with, and facilitating an exodus from, Earth.

I ran across a C&C mod that include a faction called the Forces of Tomorrow. Just an interesting name. What to do with that concept?

Should there be an oligarchical faction based on slavery, an analogue to the southern Confederacy? Should there be a faction based on the principles of hydraulic empire, like pharonic Egypt or imperial China? Should there be a faction based on the morals of the Old West?
"There's another old saying, Senator. Don't piss down my back and tell me it rains." - Julius Augustus Caesar, attrib.

 

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