Would anyone like a waterworld game CMNed?

[ete]

Moving CBA to orbital spaceflight sounds good. Im a bit ignorant on unit editing, would those custom units(or atleast the needle) proposed by geo be equipped with chaos weapons? Would need to make sure we couldnt retro engineer the chaos attack off. But i really like that kind of idea, the SAM\interceptor ability kinda sucks because the unit only defends with equal weapon and not at an advantage, so giving it chaos vs presumably missile attack would be a good boost. But i wonder if with all the new editing nowadays, is it possible to actually change the interceptor bonus from a 1:1 deal to say a 25-50% advantage for the intercepting air unit?

Geo's suggested changes to air power, for those who don't know the format of #CHASSIS, equates to:
Swap the preq techs for Copter and Needlejet (copters come sooner, jets later)
Reduce Copter movement by 3 (baseline move would become 5, not
Reduce the cost of Copters in line with the move reduction.

Which seems interesting, though I would suggest an additional rules tweak to go with it. This would require Yitzi's patch, but:
2,       ; Bonus speed per reactor for copters {-128 to 127}
Should most likely be reduced to 1, otherwise fusion and later copters have enough movement to be extremely deadly with their reduced price.

I don't think reducing the interceptor bonus is a good idea, that would simply make it harder to counter air power.

As proposed earlier to send in our faction choices by PM, and create clones if two players pick the same, i think we all agreed we prefer unique factions. Thus maybe we could put our faction choice in the thread to coordinate and avoid this.

I'm happy with that. To avoid first player to pick having an advantage, if you all agree with this, can you each select at least three factions in order of preference. If more than one player picks a faction, I will flip a coin (or several if three people pick the same) to decide to gets it and move the loser's choice down to their second preference. Please post your factions like:

1. University
2. Cult
3. Procyon

Do you want custom factions allowed for player choices? Yes, please. Actually, I'd like to play one, but I have a hard time choosing, they all look a bit... weird. One thing about NN factions is that their pros and cons are usually mismatched. Can you... Can you choose one for me? Like roll a die or something? I would go with anything. 

They are all quite strange in their own ways. I'd be happy to select for you which ever seems the most interesting to me after balancing.

Do you want Aliens allowed as player choices? Some of the custom factions are Progs. Do we have a list of all things Prog-related? I don't remember the last time I played them.

Yes, wiki! http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Faction.txt_editing_guide#ALIEN

Do you want any custom changes? Maybe we could move submarines and other interesting abilities down the ladder? Also, please let's discuss the issue of sea sensor arrays. I feel blind without 'em.

I vote that both CBA and EG should go. All air power should get their movement points reduced down to 4-6.

So far looking like:
AI included, but carefully set up to not be weak targets or useful things to kill (likely make them probe resistant, make them get fungus resources rather than terraforming their bases)
Custom factions allowed, assuming I can balance them.
MCC gone (3/3). 1/3 for EG removal.
CBA to Orbital Spaceflight (2/3) or removed (1/3)
Some kind of nerf for copters, likely including movement point drop. Possibly similar for needlejets.
Allowing alien factions for humans is questionable. Bear in mind that their key advantage (free Rec Tanks) is given to all aquatic factions automatically, and their early battle ogre is near useless for early attacks in water. Would players against official alien factions accept custom alien factions?


Also, I'm moving initial balancing of current aquatic factions to my top priority. Give me a few hours and I'll post a thread.

[Vishniac]

I am usually 1) conservative, and 2) nor really conversed in the arcanes of modding/customizing SMAC so...

Do you want AI factions?
I have nothing against. It's up to the scenario creator to decide what he wants to spice them up. Aliens, people say. According to the map, I could also see The Hive on some big enough island so they can be a recognizable power. Giving AI land power would alleviate the fact that they usually never build sea-probes but if we can give them the incentive like Kirov says, it's something else.

Do you want custom factions allowed for player choices?
I don't know them. I must add that I also don't know who I'll play!
Give me some choice based on your idea of the game; I could play aquatic Gaians but it requires some native life not to be crushed early.

Do you want Aliens allowed as player choices? No.

Do you want MCC removed?
3 people already said Yes so my opinion is purely theorethical. I'd say No.
Along this thread I read that minerals will be hard to get, building SPs will be some nightmare, trawlers are more xpensive than crawlers,... If someone wants to invest all he has into getting the MCC, good for him: it's not game-breaking (of course it can be if you cripple air power...)

Do you want any custom changes?
Being conservative the less there are the better for me. But nevertheless feel free to design an interesting game.

Do you want air power weakened?
Not too much. What I said for the MCC applies here: if minerals are so rare, building and maintaining an air force will be a strain, not even talking about getting the CBA.The original post says he already has strategies to dilute air power.

Anyway being very moderately experienced in MP I'll follow your ideas.

[Geo]

I think that '8' refers to movement points. If I read it correctly, Geo wants to cut chopper mp down to 5 and move it to D:AP, while leave airplanes intact and move them to MMI. I'm OK with changes to movement points, but why the tech tree arrangement, Geo?

You're correct. The change is just choppers and needles switching places.
Since it was likely choppers would be nerfed anyway, I'd move them sooner for a short(er) range, last ditch offensive unit.
Needles would represent the long-range attack then.
It's just my view that it is more likely choppers would be sooner developed then fast needlejets where a pilot might need some sort of electronic assistance (MMI) to help with side funtions to steer his craft.

[Kataphraktoi]

Air planes were developed long before helicopters though (now someone is going to drag up da vincis ancient heli design)

As you explained it, Geo's suggested changes sound agreeable to me.

I don't think reducing the interceptor bonus is a good idea, that would simply make it harder to counter air power.

The idea was a 50% boost to the scramble strength. I did say a 25-50% advantage for the intercepting unit Anyway i feel no disagreements towards the ideas being put forward, i like the direction we are headed. I do favor weakening air power, just to make my stance clear.

I dont think we need to reduce the chopper speed bonus from later reactors though, as AAA and aerospace defences become widespread the chopper loses it luster a bit as far as base clearing is concerned. The real problem as i see it with chop and drop is you can get MMI, throw down the CBA+CF and launch an overwhelming attack with choppers at a time when building massive defenses is impractical. So pushing CBA back to Orbital Spaceflight and cutting down chopper speed seems sufficient to me. Swapping the needle\chopper chassis on the tech tree, i am neutral about.

[ete]

I am usually 1) conservative, and 2) nor really conversed in the arcanes of modding/customizing SMAC so...

Do you want AI factions?
I have nothing against. It's up to the scenario creator to decide what he wants to spice them up. Aliens, people say. According to the map, I could also see The Hive on some big enough island so they can be a recognizable power. Giving AI land power would alleviate the fact that they usually never build sea-probes but if we can give them the incentive like Kirov says, it's something else.

Do you want custom factions allowed for player choices?
I don't know them. I must add that I also don't know who I'll play!
Give me some choice based on your idea of the game; I could play aquatic Gaians but it requires some native life not to be crushed early.

Going from my limited experience (2-3 full aquatic games, with me being custom factions usually) with a mix of official and custom factions (thinker and transcend).. here's my tips for you all on picking factions:

Free facilities are really good since minerals are scarce.
Getting +1 eng/square is less important, though still notable, due to 3 energy squares being easy.
Native life is a very big deal. A few IoDs at the start will net you the largest mobile army on planet and more importantly allow you to explore the sea, make contact, and pop pods vastly faster than other players.
Pop booms are exceptionally powerful, factions with trouble pop booming or controlling drones will be at a disadvantage.
Lal's bigger bases will come into play as will Morgan's smaller ones.
Industry is somewhat more important than on land, but not by a huge margin.
Getting key techs to unlock restrictions and get formers is a massive deal, so teching fast is good. Otherwise make sure you can get the techs of someone else.

Now a quick overview on my opinion of the factions change in status in the switch to aquatic..

Improved due to pop bonus and talent being more important, but not massively. Effic hurts a little if you spread too much, but easy GAs is excellent.
Significantly improved, so long as you don't give her special tech and free formers to everyone. Native is good and efficiency lets you expand widely without creches, first to formers=first to take advantage of +5 nut and +5 energy squares, lack of FM is less of an issue.
Different, but probably around stable power. Indust and growth is nice free perims are great/will let it hold off early attacks excellently, but having 0 effic from the standard build will mean he's got to have a fairly not spread out empire or lose a lot of energy. No demo hurts though.
Pretty cool still, but the drone problems get worse. Free NNs is awesome and doubly so with the VW (arguably best earlygame SP for water), but more drones will make large populations harder to manage.
IMO the faction that does worst in the move to water. Their core advantage is made a bit less important by plentiful energy later, but the real killer is size 4 bases for some time (and hard pop booms without planned). Still, could be made to work, they do get a lot of energy.
Maybe? I'd go with Pirates over these for aggression honestly. Elite means less when everything has 4-6 movement, their start tech now kinda sucks, and indust is annoying.
With all units being more expensive, support bonus is less of a big deal. She could still give a good rush and it could be much easier to rush someone with sea units.. but you'd need a lot of probes. I guess probing is also easier so she could be fun.
Much improved due to native life being awesome. Still poor industry, but the native police thing should give solid drone control. Worth considering imo.
Other than hardish pop booming.. an excellent faction, could do some early aggression to steal tech. Effic is a big deal since stolen bases will be much more useful. May struggle unless she does GA pop booms or takes bases.
Indust is great as always, but lack of research will hurt even more than normal. Absolutely requires a good teching partner (or probe target) to stay in the game, but may get key SPs and -1 drone is nice.
Similar to normal. Fairly average, with nice probes. But probes are more expensive.
Technically unchanged, but in playstyle possibly most dramatically changed. No longer has sole rights to the seas for a long time as a builder, but turns out to be pretty amazing as a pirate. Free naval yard and marine detachment means very likely the strongest non-NL navy for some time, but hard pop boom and effic issues mean that advantage must be used. Naval yards double as a defense bonus, which is also very nice.

Oh, and one thing to note: Chop and drop does not work at sea, you can't drop. Though I guess later cruisers are fast enough to compensate.

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4853.new#new balancing custom aquatic factions thread, input welcome.

[Geo]

Air planes were developed long before helicopters though (now someone is going to drag up da vincis ancient heli design)

* Geo points out the first better-then-prop jet aircraft came after the first succesful helicopter

[ete]

Another thought regarding custom faction allowability, Sigma has a set of seven factions (including graphics) which are relatively well balanced. If the players are interested, I will look over them regarding aquatic balance. The wiki has pages for them: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Sigma%27s_factions

[Kataphraktoi]

Does someone want to play as a custom faction? It would be easier to approve a single specific custom faction than to examine and balance many.

[ete]

Kirov does. And I've put quite a lot of thought into suggestions for balancing Sigma's factions already for land. Official factions were not designed for sea balance, I'm willing to put the effort in to avoid notable overpowerlessness in a group of factions to allow some choice.

As I see it workflow is:
1+ people want an official faction
I make as many factions balanced to a level which seems comfortable (all factions must not be clearly stronger than officials overall, and should be on the same level or weaker than the strongest officials), with input from other interested users welcome.
If, and only if, another player raises a specific objection to a faction on balance grounds will a custom factions be excluded from the available list.

If Kirov still wants me to pick his faction with Sigma's aquatic factions on the menu, I will do so semi-randomly (select the factions which feel likely to be closest to the correct power level and interesting to play and flip some coins to decide on one).


Also, another question. We need to pick a patch to use since switching later may cause eco damage irregularities. Yitzi's patch has one slightly notable/annoying issue (actually caused by kryub I think) which means that switching production causes minerals to be lost for secret projects (maybe other things?). He is working on fixing it, and playing with his current patch allows us to switch to newer patches later on in the game, but it would mean dealing with losing a few minerals in some situations until then.

[Vishniac]

I'll take an official faction too.

I shall already have enough issues without trying to figure how a faction plays. Better the devil you know...
And so I can also take the better from Vel's Guide and SMAC Academy.

[Kirov]

If Kirov still wants me to pick his faction with Sigma's aquatic factions on the menu, I will do so semi-randomly (select the factions which feel likely to be closest to the correct power level and interesting to play and flip some coins to decide on one).

Yes, a coin will do, and it will nice to play a custom faction for a change, since I have no idea what kind of strategies they need to employ. -1 Econ, +3 Commerce, what kind of a strength/penalty combo is that?

Also, another question. We need to pick a patch to use since switching later may cause eco damage irregularities. Yitzi's patch has one slightly notable/annoying issue (actually caused by kryub I think) which means that switching production causes minerals to be lost for secret projects (maybe other things?). He is working on fixing it, and playing with his current patch allows us to switch to newer patches later on in the game, but it would mean dealing with losing a few minerals in some situations until then.

I believe it's safe to start with scient's patch and later move on to Yitzi's. I played several MP games under various patches and they showed no sign of crashiness. And this issue you mention applies to all kinds of production, including Secret Projects, so yeah, I hate it and don't want to play with it.

[ete]

There won't be crashes, but the changes to eco damage *may* cause the existing eco damage tracker to become misplaced. Which is I guess a much smaller concern for a load of sea-dwelling factions, aside from coastal terraforming which is risky anyway due to eco damage.

Anyway, is everyone cool with me aquatisizing Sigma's factions to give more choice on the condition I check them over for water balance (and if, after I make any changes, you have the right to veto a faction if you have strong reason to believe it's broken)?

[Vishniac]

Anyway, is everyone cool with me aquatisizing Sigma's factions to give more choice on the condition I check them over for water balance (and if, after I make any changes, you have the right to veto a faction if you have strong reason to believe it's broken)?

I am cool with that.

[Geo]

Sure.

[ete]

Okay, can I get everyone who wants official factions to post their top three faction choices asap? I may well make the map tomorrow or the day after, otherwise it'll be a while again.