Would anyone like a waterworld game CMNed?

[Buster's Uncle]

If y'all decide to all play the same faction, why don't I whip up three modded versions with different map/flag colors and your choice of quick-and-dirty alterations to the leader and logo?  One Sven (or whomever) with a mustache, one deeply tanned, one wearing a (silly?) hat?  Stuff I can do in minutes, and don't expect it to look good, but I bet it would be more fun that way...

[Kataphraktoi]

Anyway, there's aquatic versions of all the official factions ready made, plus the pirates, plus a handful of custom factions (more coming soon) if both players want to include those too (if players want custom, I'll go through each and try to balance them better than current).

I think our CMN had something in mind for the factions already, and in general i would prefer to play with the imbalances of the differing factions rather than play cloned factions, except in cases where it could only be balanced by all being nautilus pirates\etc. Ideally everyone wants a different faction to begin with;situations where everyone wants to be ''the best'' faction but only the first to claim the cookie gets the choice and the others are left with what they dont want is not good. In this case if the other factions also get aquatic trait, i think a number of factions could make a good choice besides just pirates.

On the same note of interesting imbalances a free for all without pregame permanent alliances brings some interesting play, trying to benefit from other players but not helping them too much...as opposed to simply knowing players are 100% enemies or allies without a thought. In a 1v1 or 2v2 you can simply run your nation into the ground as long as you do more damage to the opposition. Its not the 'real' game of smac, where you have arrived on a distant world and try to survive.(but with humans instead of ai blockheads) I am in favour of free for all.

[Kirov]

If I may voice my preferences, I vote for custom factions (ete is cooking something already) and 1 faction per player (please). Right now I'm in one 2-faction game and don't want to start another until I finish that one and have my mind made up about this multi-faction thing, which initially I'm not a big fan of.

EM, I'd like to leave some atrocities. This includes those unlikely to affect ED - stapling, genejack warfare (why the hell not), base obliteration. Nerve gas may be restricted to certain uses.

As far as my experience goes, the only offenders in terms of ecology are major atrocities plus really heavy nerve gassing. You won't get much terrain flooded with an odd nerve stapling or even bse obliteration. Plus we can simply eliminate global warming via Yitzi's patch.

[Kirov]

As for the map - I played a water MP game some time ago and it seems to call for attention to communication lines between players. If you don't make obstacles between players in the form of islands and fungal patches, the game can quickly turn into hack&slash. High navy mobility combined with no sensor arrays just begs for early ambushes. That game of mine was over in 2140, before anyone managed to build the first crawler. So this is one very important thing. Another one is landmasses. On sea, it takes ages to develop due to poor terrain and the foil chassis price. We also need some forest patches to crawl or we won't see any projects at all. And again - without proper expansion area, all it takes is Applied Physics and push as fast as you can.

[ete]

The general plan is to have only a small amount of land (as a barrier between factions as Kirov describes, though even with this everyone will need a lot more investment in defenses/defensive army than a normal game) and that land to be of extremely poor quality, so eco damage should not be a major concern (and may intentionally open up extra attack paths if water rises), so micro should not be a major concern unless someone's determined to rush onto land no matter what despite loads of arid/rocky/fungus areas and minimal pods on large landmasses.

I'd prefer not to have forests to crawl, that'd kinda not fit. You can build mining platforms and there will be some mineral bonuses around. Minerals being scarce and finding ways to deal with that is a big part of the aquatic game. There will be some fairly near land, but it will intentionally be very poor for terraforming to encourage players to keep most of their infrastructure the water until they've got resources to do heavy terraforming.

To avoid early rushes it'll be a pretty large map with the main shortish rush paths being fairly narrow canals, so it's possible to build a small navy and defend. For sensors, you can build radar foil transports or park some unity foils in the canal.

Ideally I'd like all factions (aquatic versions of the 13+pirates, maybe even allowing aliens since the free rec tanks are useless and we're not using alien AI) allowed as choices since it brings diversity and an interesting/important early choice. I'd also be happy if some custom aquatic factions were allowed, but that's up to the players and if it's just official that's fine. If allowing different factions I'd encourage faction picking to work like: every player PMs me their faction, and if multiple people pick the same faction I just make clones (or ask BU for them).

If everyone wants a 4 player game that'll be interesting. I'd encourage a FFA since 2v2 is likely to work better/at least as well as a two player multifaction game and FFAs where offensive plays are faster will be interesting, with people able to gang up on whoever's doing well. I'm thinking of possibly setting it up so each person is relatively near one other person, but fairly far from the other two. That way you've got a bit of a prisoner's dilemma going on:

Best case for you - You build an army to backstab your neighbor while they have little defense and double your empire's size early on
Good outcome - You're both peaceful/trading and devote all your energy to building up your empires, and get ahead of the other two while they fight.
Bad outcome - You fight with your neighbor and both spend a lot of resources on army while the other two get ahead
Terrible outcome - You are peaceful and build, your neighbor makes an army and steals your empire before you get much defense

But at the same time, you can work with your neighbor to attack the other two (or lie to them you're going to do this with the army you're preparing for them), or have to build a defensive army. If one player wipes out another early, the other two may be forced to work together or lose, etc..

As for AI/lack of AI: I'm fine with not having them, but there is a pretty sound way to reduce the AI's tendency to be just a resource. Make them aliens so taking a base=pop1 base, make them immune to mind control, and make them a faction with fungal resource bonuses. Then you have a potentially annoying but not massively threatening foe who has a ton of bases which are basically useless to a human and armies with natives so it's not costless to beat them. It'd also not be too hard to start them in multiple places at once. But again, I'm fine either way, let me know each of your opinions.

[Kirov]

As for AI/lack of AI: I'm fine with not having them, but there is a pretty sound way to reduce the AI's tendency to be just a resource. Make them aliens so taking a base=pop1 base, make them immune to mind control, and make them a faction with fungal resource bonuses. Then you have a potentially annoying but not massively threatening foe who has a ton of bases which are basically useless to a human and armies with natives so it's not costless to beat them. It'd also not be too hard to start them in multiple places at once. But again, I'm fine either way, let me know each of your opinions.

I like your CMN thinking. ete, please post such tips as the second sentence above in the CMN section. I know they sound self-evident on the surface, but it's easy to forget this kind of advice when you fire up your editor. I believe veteran CMNing, much like playing, is more about knowing myriads of minute useful tidbits rather than any 'general' strategy. In the long run, you'll save others a lot of time by posting them.

As for the AI in our game: I like them as a flavour and don't mind if they introduce a little element of chaos.

And FFA, of course. Any pacts you have should be your own hard work.

[Kataphraktoi]

Sounds good ete 

[Vishniac]

Still possible to enter this PBEM?

I can guarantee playing one turn/a day.

[Earthmichael]

I can give up my spot if we are overbooked.   I am already involved in several games, and probably am better off not starting another.

[Geo]

I can give up my spot if we are overbooked.   I am already involved in several games, and probably am better off not starting another.

Not overbooked with games, but I can offer my spot as well. 

[ete]

This game should work with 3-5 players, and I'll be able to build it.. in a bit over a week most likely. Maybe closer to two, not loads of spare time in the near future.

[Kirov]

Right now it's Kata, EM, Geo, Vishniac and me (don't go away, EM and Geo!). Recently I started a 3-player game and it works wonder for the dynamics and the prospects of actuallly completing one. 5 players is definitely too much in my opinion. I suggest finding another player and starting two 3-p games.

[Geo]

Perhaps we should commit BUncle? 

[Buster's Uncle]

No, BU is a coward.

[Geo]

We'll be gentle.