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Good points. Maintenance on a per-unit basis is probably best. Keep the #2/#4 modes as-is then. I can balance things around ECM/AAA cost and power from there.And yea, I think that's my only real remaining gripe is the former/crawler cost. They're fine to start but should increase the more of them you have.
I still like the idea of clean reactor costing a constant 1 extra row, regardless of reactor. As you get later in the game, where the higher reactors show up, you have less time to get your payback.
And I like eliminating the need for micromanaging what city is supporting what unit, to get things balanced, so I prefer to make most everything clean.
I don't think increasing the cost of clean by reactor size makes sense. In fact, weapons and defense costs go down with higher reactors! So I think a constant 1 row for clean is a good idea.
Yes, that's the issue with reactors and non-combat units. There's little benefit to non-combats otherwise and that's why in the unmodded game, they made reactors also reduce unit costs. The problem with that was that reactors became much too crucial for military units. For example Fusion reactor is like going from 5 attack to 10 against someone without it, *and* 3 to 6 defense. There's no sense going down those sides of the tree early.
I still say formers need a maintenance structure all to their own, and they're most of the reason for the super-fast mid into late game.
Keep in mind, though, what else is at the same level as fusion: Copters, satellites, maglevs, genejack factory...there's a lot of strong stuff at that stage. Of course, with the new modding options, you can weaken the overpowered stuff as needed.
I have to agree that this whole mechanic really is tedious and very pro-ICS.
Ideally I think the game would consider support based on total citizens (or even just bases like it does now), and then allocate out support costs automatically across your cities. Kind of like how waste is auto-calculated for energy based on EFFIC SE.
Yea I compensated the reactor power vs weapon/armor a bit more by increasing the weapon/armor scaling rate. And that might be true...I'll have to try a few games going down the 'defensive' tree over the 'satellite' tree.
I think reducing satellites and CBA would help a bit here too.
The ideal fix would to tie non-combat unit effectiveness (esp formers'crawlers) more closely to their actual unit costs. a 20 mineral reactor former should terraform a lot slower than one that has 60 minerals invested. Right now there's only one real upgrade and that's Super Formers. The ideal way of them doing this would have been to put in a few terraforming 'weapon' types up the Centauri tech chain.
Alternatively non-combats could just scale with their reactor since the HP doesn't help them otherwise.
A lot of things in the game can be evaluated in terms of mineral payback period (at least in the early game). Clean at 10 cost is a *really* good payback (10 turns, and 5 at low SUPPORT SE).
Crawlers can be even better (30/6=5 turns if you crawl a borehole).
Or even in the early-mid, a 4N crawler feeds four forest tiles for 8M/4E, for an even faster payback (granted there are maintenance costs to drones).
Formers have the best payback of anything in the game, hands down. They improve terrain, generating more and more resources for bases on an initial low investment of 20 minerals. This is ok to some extent...without Formers the growth rate of the game would be too slow. Also being on bad terrain would be even more punishing than it is without fixed improvements like Forest, Borehole. There is a *lot* to consider when approaching Former unit costs. Efficient terraforming is a skillful and still debatable part of the game that I don't think should go away. Another idea I was toying with was formers and/or crawlers that expire after X turns (if this is even possible).
There are enough other anti-ICS features (energy-boosting buildings), though, that I think it will only end up making ICS a good idea for a heavily aggressive (and thus high on supportable units) strategy, which probably should be ICS-supporting.Proportionally to production, I assume? That'd be a huge hassle to code, though, as it means calculating something (total support cost) on a faction-wide level rather than base-wide, which nothing else is.
Adding new "weapon" types, except as replacements for old ones, is not feasible.
I think formers also tend to be in that area.
It does help if they do get attacked...and then what about if you make armored formers?
That's true. Instead of looking at this issue of assigning units to bases, from the top-down, how about bottom-up? Would there be any way of auto-assigning a unit to another base with excess support capacity when it's built, if the current base is at its support limit?
I figured not. In fact when I increase weapon values the game seems to use the wrong icons. I'm thinking weapons were hard coded in differently from armor for some reason (perhaps tied to military/non-military unit code).
For their first payback perhaps.
But no, formers are much much stronger than crawlers or anything else *in the long run*.
and I'd have to really sit down and try to analyse optimal early to mid game terraforming mathematically. Has anyone done this to date?
Anyways, the reason is formers continually improve terrain, not just once. Think of it like a base improvement that builds base improvements.
So I pay 20 minerals for a former. The first forest I make might be +2 minerals on bad terrain.
The limiting resources are workable squares and former time, which make this a bit complex to work out.
I think the optimal setup might actually be all boreholes and crawling all nutrients on condensors once they're available.
But to get back on topic about unit costs. It's quite apparent that formers (and to a lesser extent crawlers) are what drive the non-linear growth rate in the game.
Is there any way to make it so later game formers and crawlers are significantly better for their unit cost? (i.e. improvements with reactor upgrades) Perhaps making formers terraform faster - I imagine any sort of more exotic new terraforming abilities are not possible.
With crawlers perhaps a capping system that eventually allows uncapped crawling of multiple resources (or a bonus to energy/mineral crawling).
My thought was that losing all your early game formers/crawlers shouldn't necessarily be game over.
And you can only replace those at the rate of 1 per turn, no matter how big your cities are.
Yea this is true. And if you go with a costing model that makes reactors only give HP (no cost reduction), it's probably 'good enough' of a benefit.
But it also requires a unit cost model that allows for free armor on non-combats.
Else you're paying way too much in unit costs. And that's a bit of a balancing act - formers should have some defense against obsolete designs but not be a replacement for military sentinels.
Since I think formers and crawlers are the most interesting aspect of SMAC, I would take care before I made any serious modifications (like having high reactors result in faster terraforming). I would not go that route. The only change that made sense to me is allow formers to use higher reactors with no great cost than fission reactor for the same capabilities. This gives basic formers a nominal bit of extra defense from the reactor.
This illustrates what I see for weapons better...their graphic depends on the power and not their name/tech in alphax.txt#WEAPONSHand Weapons, Gun, 1, 0, 1, -1, None,Laser, Laser, 2, 0, 2, -1, Physic,Particle Impactor, Impact, 4, 0, 3, -1, Chaos,Gatling Laser, Gatling, 6, 1, 4, -1, Super,Missile Launcher, Missile, 8, 2, 5, -1, Fossil,Chaos Gun, Chaos, 12, 0, 6, -1, String,Fusion Laser, Fusion, 16, 1, 7, -1, SupLube,Tachyon Bolt, Tachyon, 20, 1, 8, -1, Unified,Plasma Shard, Shard, 24, 2, 9, -1, Space,Quantum Laser, Quantum, 30, 1,10, -1, QuanMac,Graviton Gun, Graviton, 40, 0,11, -1, AGrav,Singularity Laser, Singularity, 50, 1,12, -1, ConSing,Resonance Laser, R-Laser, 8, 1, 7, -1, Bioadap,Resonance Bolt, R-Bolt, 20, 1,11, -1, SentRes,String Disruptor, String, 60, 1,13, -1, BFG9000,Psi Attack, Psi, -1, 2,10, -1, CentPsi,Planet Buster, Planet Buster, 99, 0,30, -1, Orbital,Colony Module, Colony Pod, 0, 8, 3, -1, None, ; Noncombat packagesTerraforming Unit, Formers, 0, 9, 2, -1, Ecology,Troop Transport, Transport, 0, 7, 2, -1, DocFlex,Supply Transport, Supply, 0,10, 3, -1, IndAuto,Probe Team, Probe Team, 0,11, 3, -1, PlaNets,Alien Artifact, Artifact, 0,12,36, -1, Disable,Conventional Payload, Conventional, 12, 0, 8, -1, Orbital,Tectonic Payload, Tectonic, 0,13,12, -1, NewMissFungal Payload, Fungal, 0,14,12, -1, NewMiss
This illustrates what I see for weapons better...their graphic depends on the power and not their name/tech in alphax.txt