CCFB #1 - Guardians of Morality

[ete]

For the first community custom faction balancing, most people seemed happy with the Guardians of Morality:

  SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, +SUPPORT, SOCIAL, +++POLICE, SOCIAL, --GROWTH, SOCIAL, --RESEARCH, SOCIAL, -PROBE, SOCIAL, -TALENT, FACILITY, 22, POPULATION, -1, FANATIC, 0
  Future Society, Thought Control, POLICE
  Future Society, Eudaimonic, nil

LEADER: {Brother Robert Rydell}
BACKGROUND: {Parsanna, Montana Free State, Unity Assistant Psych Chaplain (court martialed)}
AGENDA: {destruction of "immorality"}
TECH: {none}
+3 POLICE: {ironfisted rule}
+1 INDUSTRY: {Forced Labor}
+1 SUPPORT: {dedication to war effort}
-2 RESEARCH: {many subjects forbidden}
-1 PROBE: {distrust computers}
-2 GROWTH: {personal relationships controlled, many people escape or die trying}
^free genejack factory at each base: {may not use eudaimoniac // +25% attack {fanatic}}

The primary aims of this project are:
1. Make a version of each faction which is balanced with respect to official factions in vanilla (or bugfixed) SMAX.
2. Improve the quality of the factions (tidying up spelling, format, artwork, adding alien dialog, making datalinks accurate).

Additionally, it'd be good to make each faction fitting for the alpha centauri setting if possible (joke/other factions not included) and make each faction have distinct and interesting quirks of play. If the AI can use it decently that's a bonus too.

I've attached the original faction files for anyone who does not want to download all the NN factions and put up the text files on the wiki (outside of edit mode it won't display well due to linebreaks being removed until I get an extension in to fix that). Feel free to make objective (spelling and formatting) edits there, but please do not make other changes unless agreed upon.

So, talk about what you like and dislike about the faction, possible ways to improve it, and your experiences with and against the faction. Try to stay somewhat focused on this faction, we'll deal with other ones in another topic which I'll start in a few days depending on how this one goes.

[Green1]

First thing I will do is test it.

Tiny Map
Abundant Lifeforms
Thinker Difficulty
version : Kyrub's SMAX patch PLUS. (awaiting more extensive testing of Yitzi's before migrating - Kyrub' SMAX PLUS is the last stable SMAX upatch)

Factions TEST 1
Gaurdians
Believers
Gaians
Spartans
Pirates
University
Planet Cult

Factions TEST 2
Gaurdians
Usurpers
Caretakers
Data Angels
Drones
Consciousness
Planet Cult

Factions TEST 3
Gaurdians
Believers
Peacekeepers
Morganites
Hive
University
Gaians


Give me a bit.

[ete]

Assorted notes from playing one large Transcend game against a load of overpowered custom factions and Yang (who got stomped), and general opinions:

-1 Probe seems ill-fitting, Probe in my mind is more of a resistance to infiltration/subversion or is to do with having extensive but weakly protected computing systems/extreme hacking ability. Not trusting computers could well be an advantage since they'd store vital into on non-networked computers/not use computers extensively. Also has minimal effect on gameplay since you're almost never ahead in tech.

+3 Police is really strong with Free Market, -2 just stops you from using Police or nerve stapling. However, free GJ factories and -1 Talent (not in datalinks entry, should be added) do mean you've got to work harder than most at drone control otherwise.

GJ Factory and +1 Industry gives them amazing production power, swiping SPs is easy and you can fill a base with facilities very fast, or build/maintain a larger army than anyone else. Reasons for GJ Factory and +1 Industry seem pretty much the same, removing Industry is an option if we need to bring power down more.

-2 research and -2 growth also mean that through game, you're well behind on research and expansion unless you kill someone early (hard without tech) and/or can get fed tech. Perhaps heavy probing would help this, in my game I did not get much chance to probe since the only player I was near earlygame was the Bree who were much more powerful than me and sea based, so too risky to probe until I got to mid when I had other armies to face.

-2 research and -2 growth combined with no starting tech and huge industry means right at the start you very quickly have nothing worth building (loads of scout patrols, no population for CPs, no facilities available). This does help balance them, but it is kind of boring. Giving them a starting tech which lets them build SOMETHING with their industry would be nice, imo.

One thing which I feel would fit them flavorwise and be great at bringing them down a notch or two would be making their aversion Democratic. They're essentially a Fundamentalist Police State, and forcing them away from arguably the most universally useful SE would do a lot to counteract their ability to run FM at war with ease along with unmatched early industry.

It generally feels like they've got a few too many SE settings compared to originals which have 2/3 mostly, and some fours. This has six, or seven if you count - talent. Maybe removing - probe and changing -talent to something like the university drone problem would work well.

Fanatic bonus may be unnecessary, and does not fit that well with the idea of this being an unhappy overly strictly controlled society with many members running away or dying trying to escape. Plus, they've already got huge army production/support ability so no need for another bonus. It also makes them feel more like the believers, which maybe is best avoided.

Extra one population per base is missing from datalinks. Not sure how important it is especially with low growth, and there are plenty of bonuses anyway.

Reason for support could be changed to something like: "Followers operate on minimal supplies." to better fit the other police stateish flavor.

[Yitzi]

Firstly, what it doesn't mention:
-They get +1 drones per base, not counting the one from their genejack factory.  They're going to need their police.
-They've got slightly looser population limits.

Overall, what strikes me immediately is that they can support a large army and replace it quickly (probably better than Yang in the early game, as their +50% industry is probably worth more than his extra +1 SUPPORT), and have strong attack (comparable to Miriam), but have large research and growth penalties, making them horrible at a builder game.

Their real flaw as a momentum faction is the GROWTH penalty, and lack of a starting tech, so let's remove the GROWTH penalty and give them Social Psych as a starting tech (not useful immediately for a momentum game, but it does help them reach Fundamentalist sooner, which is good for momentum factions due to the morale bonus).

Also, PROBE is more about resistance to probe team actions than ability to use them, and we're running out of room, so let's remove that.

Of course, with the GROWTH penalty gone, they may be a bit too strong, especially with genejack factories, so let's give them -2 ECONOMY (same reason as the Hive), reduce their POLICE bonus to +2, and increase research cost by 50%.

Their AI is programmed to boost POLICE, which is just stupid because that's the one thing they don't need any more of.  On top of that, it favors Police State, which fits Yang very well thematically, but they're more likely to prefer Fundamentalist, so have them go for PROBE.  They also should probably prefer Fundamentalist intrinsically.

Thus, we get the following:
  Tech, Psych, SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, +SUPPORT, SOCIAL, ++POLICE, SOCIAL, --RESEARCH, SOCIAL, --ECONOMY,  SOCIAL, -TALENT, FACILITY, 22, POPULATION, -1, FANATIC, 0, TECHCOST, 150,
  Politics, Fundamentalist, PROBE
  Values, Wealth, nil

^LEADER: {Brother Robert Rydell}
^BACKGROUND: {Parsanna, Montana Free State, Unity Assistant Psych Chaplain (court martialed)}
^AGENDA: {destruction of "immorality"}
^TECH: {Social Psych}
^+2 POLICE: {ironfisted rule}
^+1 INDUSTRY, free genejack factory at each base: {"Sinners" are forced to hard labor}
^+1 SUPPORT: {"tithes" to support war effort}
^-2 RESEARCH, +50% technology cost: {many subjects forbidden}
^-2 ECONOMY: {Little freedom}
^+25% Bonus when attacking enemies, from strength of convictions.
^1 extra drone per base: {widespread discontent}
^Accumulates NO research points until MY 2110.
^{May not use Wealth value in Social Engineering.}

And the fluff (blurbs, dialogue, etc.) needs a lot of work too.

So then what we have is something that can hit hard, with a lot of troops, and replace them very fast, but is going to have a lot of trouble with tech.

[Green1]

Assorted notes:
-1 Probe seems ill-fitting, Probe in my mind is more of a resistance to infiltration/subversion or is to do with having extensive but weakly protected computing systems/extreme hacking ability. Not trusting computers could well be an advantage since they'd store vital into on non-networked computers/not use computers extensively. Also has minimal effect on gameplay since you're almost never ahead in tech.

+3 Police is really strong with Free Market, -2 just stops you from using Police or nerve stapling. However, free GK factories and -1 Talent (not in datalinks, should be added) do mean you've got to work harder than most at drone control otherwise.

-2 research and -2 growth along with no starting tech and huge industry means right at the start you very quickly have nothing worth building (loads of scout patrols, no population for CPs, no facilities available). This does help balance them, but it is kind of boring. Giving them a starting tech which lets them build SOMETHING with their industry would be nice, imo.

One thing which I feel would fit them flavorwise and be great at bringing them down a notch or two would be making their aversion Democratic. They're essentially a Fundamentalist Police State, and forcing them away from arguably the most universally useful SE would do a lot to counteract their ability to run FM at war with ease along with unmatched early industry.

It generally feels like they've got a few too many SE settings compared to originals which have 2/3 mostly, and some fours. This has six, or seven if you count - talent. Maybe removing - probe and changing -talent to something like the university drone problem would work well.

Probe - I agree, that one is up for debate. However, strict cults are kind of hard to infiltrate. Yeah, in the real world you can show up as a noobie in pretty much any sect you want including the Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientology. But if you do not start towing the line really soon and doing exactly what they say, they ostrasize you pretty quickly. Other hand, since you do not get any new input, you do not innovate well. Fundy does simulate that nicely, though, and this factions is geared towards Fundy.

Police. The plus police is fine. Once again, think Scientology, JWs, or Jimmy Swaggart who did not get involved in scandles and actually did what he preached. I used to live in Baton Rouge where Swaggart is from. The control those guys have... god. A society based on those controls would be MUCH worse (or better depending on how you look at it) than even societies like China. Do not believe me? Check out places like Iran. They even have nosy people walking around the streets unpaid enforcing strict dress codes for "morality". Not even Yang would be that harsh.

I agree. Ban ability to run Democratic. Miriam may not like it, but can dabble in it. These guys would shun that choice. If Miriam is Baptist, these guys are Charismatic Pentacostal.

If you are going to give them a tech, I would go with Social Psych. They would have meeting places and recreation from the get go.

[Green1]

@ Yitzi

- Growth is fine to counter the support and police.

You do not want a carbon copy of other factions for "balance". We are already treading close to Miriam and Yang as is.

[ete]

Edited more into my second post.

Police. The plus police is fine. Once again, think Scientology, JWs, or Jimmy Swaggart who did not get involved in scandles and actually did what he preached. I used to live in Baton Rouge where Swaggart is from. The control those guys have... god. A society based on those controls would be MUCH worse (or better depending on how you look at it) than even societies like China. Do not believe me? Check out places like Iran. They even have nosy people walking around the streets unpaid enforcing strict dress codes for "morality". Not even Yang would be that harsh.

Yea, I was not saying it was too much, a lot of my notes are just about how the faction plays. I quite like how the massive Police bonus is one of the main focuses.

Their real flaw as a momentum faction is the GROWTH penalty, and lack of a starting tech, so let's remove the GROWTH penalty

hm, I actually think the Growth penalty is a very effective way of holding them back. If it's their one flaw as a momentum faction, then by all means keep that flaw otherwise they're at risk of becoming too strong. I like that they're held back by more than just research, since that makes them distinct from Miriam. Swapping the Growth penalty for an Econ one makes them much more like Miriam (low tech, great army) and Yang (low energy/tech, great infrastructure/growth), and much less like themselves (low tech and low growth, but great mineral stuff). Econ drop would also make FM near useless, which is their second greatest strength as a builder (first being HUGE mineral production). Not keen on dropping Growth for Econ, it fits flavor better and is a not well explored and effective type of penalty, and does not cripple FM.

Social Psych seems like a possible starting tech, fairly useful once you get FM (before then you have loads of police) way in and gives something to spend spare mins on in the very early game. Not certain it's the best, but it fits decently. Don't like it being the same as Believers much though.

I agree with changing AI focus, Probe is fairly fitting.. but Econ would improve the AI more (they are GREAT with FM/Wealth), and lets them run Police State too which is good for flavor.

Yitzi: your version also has a lot of other changes I'm not sure about, like blocking Wealth, lowering Police bonus, boosting tech penalty further (too like Miriam already!)

[Green1]

Still downing some energy drinks to test it myself.

But.. just by stats, I think the only changes would be adding Social Psych and setting Democracy to nil.

[ete]

Since a lot of my recommendations were mixed with justification/general notes originally, let's distill the ideas I like currently.

I like the idea of:
Aversion to Democracy
Remove Probe Penalty
Add a starting tech
-1 Talent to another form of penalty which scales with base size
Change POLICE AI focus to something useful (Econ probably helps AI most, but others may be more fitting)
Tidy up flavor texts

I'm less sure on, but maybe support:
Removing Fanatic
Removing +1 Industry
Removing extra base size

The removals are mostly because the faction feels bloated, with way more extras which are not core features/required for flavor, which is something I feel we should avoid.

[ete]

How's everyone's testing going? My current game (very land heavy map, playing as someone very like the University but worse SE values and more free facilities) had the current Guardians more than holding their own against the overpowered version of the freelancers (+3 Econ, HQ at every base), actually taking quite a few bases and only losing the war now that freelancers have started using mind control heavily. That Probe penalty seems to be killer. Still, it seems like the AI is using them amazingly well. I think having techsteal on base capture helped them a lot, since the freelancers were way ahead in tech but clearly had not enough military to hold off, and with tech parity the guardians seem deadly. Even though they've only unlocked Police State/Power, and are running both. Great support, production, and Police seems to play well to the AI's strengths, if they had someone feeding them tech they'd be really tough.

If we can agree upon (or at least have a bit more debate about) out most of the unsure points, I'd like to start on the next faction soon.