HtH Ladder Earthmichael vs. Kirov - TTT

[Kirov]

All right, here it goes at last.

We play the Vets map and the combatants are:

Earthmichael, incarnated as Aki-Zeta Five of Cybernetic Consciousness

Kirov, represented by Morgan of Morgan Industries, Inc.

To spice things up, two alien factions landed on our Planet.

The settings are:

All victory conditions on (I think so, I kinda forgot), map visible, no random events, no supply pods, spoils of war off

House rules:

CBA and choppers are banned
Atrocities banned except for base obliteration
Stockpiling is allowed (remember to insert “stockpile energy” to the queue, but only after units!)
Reverse engineering banned in any form
Upgrading crawlers to better models and cashing them towards SPs is banned.

Do I have to do anything specific to make it ladder or will our declaration do?

Earthmichael, enjoy the game and good luck!

[Earthmichael]

Kirov,

Can you take a look at the setup here?  I am not being given the option to resesarch Planetary Networks, and I need that to be my first research priority.

It may be slot related.  I did some experimentation, and found that if Aki is in slot 2,3, or 5 I get the option to research Planetary Networks.  (I did not check slot 6 or 7).

Anyway, is it possible to put Aki into a slot where Planetary Networks can be the first research priority?

Thanks!

Earthmichael

[Kirov]

Actually I noticed I have a very similar problem here. After I take my first preferred tech, my next tech choice is fairly screwed and I sort of waste my second tech, or at least it's not what I wanted. So either we accept it works bad both ways or set up a new game, your call.

The reason your tests don't prove it is that the techs you start with are given via the scenario editor, not a standard game start (AFAIK, I can't do that in any other way if we are to set our game and not just start random).

Are you familiar with the tech choice Excel spreadsheet? Worth checking if any options are ruled out, especially at the start.

Anyhow, as you can see in the field "traded technologies", you get different outcomes if you get at least one tech by trade or from the CMN.

So it's up to you. I could also use a better start, but then it can take me a moment to prepare a new game.

[Earthmichael]

Since the techs are given by the scenario editor, is there a way to account for this on the spreadsheet?

What I would like is to have Planetary Networks as my first tech choice, and then be able to beeline to IA with no more than 1 sidetrack technology.  This is how my normal games work anyway, unless I pop a pod or get a tech some other way.

I figure there is probably a way to select the right slot number to get this result.

What about you?  Which tech did you get, and which sidetrack was imposed?  Is there a slot that avoids this?

[Kirov]

If you start a regular random game, you just set the slot, the number of starting techs (1 or 2) and 'acquire' starting techs from the list to the right. In any kind of a set-up game, you must also select 'yes' in the 'traded technologies' field (and switch to 'yes' in regular game once you traded something).

My situation - with any other faction I grab CentEcon first and then beeline to IA. But with Morgan on Vets, I want to start with Biogenetics, then IndEcon, then CentEco, then IA. But in my situation, after Biogenetics I can only choose between Doc:Mob, InfNet and SocPsych; obviously I take InfNet, but it's still something I'd like to postpone after IndEcon and CentEco.

I could start with IndEcon, but then it's the same, only 3 techs I do not want.

OK, I'll look to that tomorrow or the day after. The solution should be simple really, probably if we switch sides it'll go away. But if want to have a clean path to IA, you can either help me with tests or tell me if you sway at any moment from IA or is it just PlanNet, IndBase, IndEcon, IA.

After test: your problem is solved easily - you just go to slot 1, but I cannot seem to solve my problem. Whatever slot I take, I can't go the above path, I'm limited to those 3 techs I mention after either the first or the second choice. I'll see what I can do. Damn it's weird. 

[Kirov]

Yeah, whatever I do, I'm forced to pick up one tech I don't want. So if you get CentEco in the first pick, I think we're about even.

I didn't know Morgan works like that, it's worth remembering.

[Earthmichael]

I must admit that I am puzzled by your starting tech choices.  I thought Morgan was an obvious candidate to beeline to IA for Wealth.  I guess you prefer to rush build some recycling centers with your intial weath first. 

Still, I can't see that InfNet is much of a sidetrack, since it is still on the beeline to IA.  The way I see it, you can preference Biogenetics at a one tech delay to IndEcon, or you can get IndEcon immediately.  Either way, you get to pick your first tech toward the strategy you choose to follow.

For me, it is critical to get Planetary Networks first, in order to switch to Planned ASAP.  So having to pick CentEco in my first pick does NOT make it even.  I am willing to take a sidetrack to CentEco on the way to IA (similar to you having to pick InfNet before IndEcon), but I must research Planetary Networks first, just as you feel you must research Biogenetics first.

So, please put me in slot 1 if that solves my problem, and put yourself in whatever slot will work best for the tech tree you are trying to pursue. 

I would like to pretest this before we actually start, if you can send me the starting file.  I can also help test Morgan choices as well. Thanks!

[Kirov]

Come on Earthmichael, it's just one screwed tech choice, happens all the time in SMAC! I knew beforehand that I'm screwed with mine and hadn't even mentioned it until you brought it up.

I played Aki for a moment. You can pick Industrial Base and then take PlanNet in 2107 and you still can't afford Planned anyway, so you won't actually see any difference. Still better off than me.

Mine is a standard opening for Morgan, I pick it up at 'poly or CGN. Yeah, the basic idea is to start with RecTanks. Feels unusual, but it's the only way to make up for the -1 SUPPORT.

The starting file is attached above as .SC.

[Earthmichael]

I don't see the .SC file anywhere?!?

Can you repost it?

[Kirov]

Oh sorry, I meant that other thread. Here it is. So let me know what you think.

[Earthmichael]

Come on Earthmichael, it's just one screwed tech choice, happens all the time in SMAC! I knew beforehand that I'm screwed with mine and hadn't even mentioned it until you brought it up.

I played Aki for a moment. You can pick Industrial Base and then take PlanNet in 2107 and you still can't afford Planned anyway, so you won't actually see any difference. Still better off than me.

I went ahead and played AKI using the scenario file you posted.  It is a disaster!

1. I can't pick Planetary Networks as my first tech.  As a result, I have the energy to switch to Planned long before I actually get the tech.  It DOES make a difference, in that my initial builds do not get to benefit from Planned.

2. Then I am sidetracked, with SP being the best choice.  (I am not offered CE, which is odd; that is my usual sidetrack.)

3. Now I can pick IE, which is fine.

4. But I find myselft with a SECOND SIDETRACK!  I pick CE as the best choice.

In summary, I can't pick the starting tech that I want, resulting in getting Planned too late to save on my initial builds.  Then I suffer TWO sidetracks to IA!  I have never played a random game that starts this badly!  I am not trying to make your life difficult, but you could not have picked a worse starting slot for Aki! 

Can you send me the scenario with AKI in slot one?  You said on your tests that worked for you; I would like to test this as well.

Do you want to just let a moderator set up a game for us?  There is no way that I want to play competively with a start that hoses me that badly!

For me, a reasonable start is being able to pick Planetary Networks as my first tech, and at most one sidetrack to IA.  That should not be very difficult to achieve.

[Kirov]

OK, I'll try to correct it. But no sidetrack to IA is a luxury, not default, so we'll both probably have to live with one.

One thing I'm curious about - you can get PlanNet in 2107 at 70%. How do you earn 30 ec in that time to take Planned? The nearest patch of fungus is 3 tiles away, you can't really count on harvesting MW in such number in such time. Do you switch the slider to cash or what?

[Earthmichael]

With having to take the initial IB, I don't get to reseach PlanNet until after I finish, so PlanNet is not available until 2112.

If I can take PlanNet right off the bat, I can earn 40 EC by 2108, making use of the energy special near the starting position.  So I can switch to Planned 4 turns sooner.  This is early enough to affect my initial growth, giving me a nice boost, and saves me some minerals on production as well.

You can take it as a complement that we are even discussing this.  With most opponents, I would just take the handicap and move on.  But I have too much respect for your skills to start with this kind of handicap.

I agree that no sidetrack to IA is a definitely a luxury, which is why I expect to take a single sidetrack, usually with something useful like CentEco.  It was the two sidetracks that I was objecting to, as well as not getting my prefered starting tech.

[Earthmichael]

I just had an excellent idea!  We can play the scenario file just as it sit right now, but I will play Morgan, and you can play Aki!

I am perfectly willing to live with the limitations of Morgan's tech tree in the current scenario file, and you seem to think that Aki's tech tree is OK, so lets just reverse positions and play the scenario file that you have already created!

Does this sound good to you?  If we do this, how do we actually get started, i.e. who goes first?  I am happy to let you have the slight advantage of first move.

[Kirov]

  Let me think about it, I think that Aki may be stronger just a little bit, but I just enjoy playing Morgan more. I'll let you know and see if I can set a new game with minor effort.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm afraid I still need some practice, but can as well get it from you.

And actually I'm enjoying our game already!  I've come to think that the only viable opening with techs (if not Morgan) is CE, then IA, then D:Flex (or D:Init if you're in the mood) and then either EnvEcon or D:AP, depending on the situation. Full possible tech slider at least until IA, cash for SE harvested from MW.

But you don't start with CE and use econ slider to run Planned ASAP, which must postpone your IA and without CE you can only build CPs anyway. Interesting.