How do these sound for atrocity rules?

[Yitzi]

A few months ago, Earthmichael pointed out that atrocities seem to be balanced partially based on the diplomacy effects on the AI, which could make them too powerful in an all-human* game.  So I thought about it, and have an idea that might work.  How's this sound:

A. In order to nerve staple a base, use a planet buster on any target, or use nerve gas against human targets, you must have a POLICE rating of at least +0.  You must maintain this rating for 5 turns after the action, if you are able to**.
B. In order to use a planet buster to destroy a human base, or use nerve gas against a human base, or engage in genetic warfare or obliterate a base***, you need a POLICE rating of at least +2.  You must maintain this rating for 5 turns after the action, if you are able to.
C. If the U.N. charter is in effect and any faction commits an atrocity, it is marked on their record.  The interactions of human players with a faction are restricted by that faction's atrocity record and the POLICE rating of the other (non-atrocity-committing) faction:
   I: Add up the atrocities committed by the faction.  If the interacting faction has a POLICE rating of +1, ignore any atrocities except those listed in B; if the interacting faction has a negative POLICE rating, the atrocities listed in B count double.  Atrocities committed against the interacting faction count triple (so sextuple if the interacting faction has a negative POLICE rating and the atrocity is listed in B.)
   II: If the total atrocity count is at least 3, the interacting faction may not have a pact with the atrocity-committing faction.  If it is at least 6, they cannot have a treaty.  If it is at least 9, the interacting faction may not give anything of material value to the atrocity-committing faction.  If it is at least 12, the interacting faction may not give anything even nonmaterial (such as agreements) to the atrocity-committing faction.  If it is at least 15, the interacting faction must declare vendetta against the atrocity-committing faction.
   III: If the interacting faction has a POLICE rating of +2 or higher, none of this applies and they may interact freely.
D: If any faction uses a Planet Buster with the U.N. charter in effect, all human players must declare immediate and permanent vendetta on that faction.
E: None of these rules apply to aliens.  They may commit atrocities with no penalty, and may interact freely with factions that commit atrocities.

*In the introductory paragraph and when I speak of human players, I mean human as opposed to AI.  When I speak of human targets of atrocities, I mean human as opposed to Progenitor.
**The only case I can think of where you would be unable to is if you were relying on the Ascetic Virtues to boost your POLICE rating, and then lost it afterward.
***Making bases harder to obliterate will make it less useful to take a base that you can't hold, which will in turn weaken the strategy of using air power to hit where the enemy's forces aren't to take a base and destroy it.  This weakening is probably a good thing.

[t_ras]

If any faction uses a Planet Buster with the U.N. charter in effect, all human players must declare immediate and permanent vendetta on that faction.

I wouldn't go that far as to permamnent. If the base had no SP you could say the vendeta would be for 10 turns and cumulative for each plannet buster used. E.g.: you used PB on turn 2150 and then on 2155 then you have 15 years of vendeta on you.

[Yitzi]

I figure it should be the same as the AI...if you use a Planet Buster with the U.N. charter in effect, how long with the AI keep its vendetta for?

[Kirov]

I'm quite sure that if you nuke, Vendetta from the AI is permanent. At least that's what is said somewhere and I have never heard anything to the contrary.

I don't think atrocities need any changes apart from one thing - stuff like nerve gas or stapling (basically everything except PB) shouldn't count towards ecodamage. And that was really Earthmichael's main concern, that you can flood the entire world by gassing AI.

[Yitzi]

I don't think atrocities need any changes apart from one thing - stuff like nerve gas or stapling (basically everything except PB) shouldn't count towards ecodamage. And that was really Earthmichael's main concern, that you can flood the entire world by gassing AI.

Unfortunately, that's hard-coded and likely to be on the hard side to fix.  It'd probably be doable, but significantly harder than a number of much more important hard-coded fixes.  I might put it on the list after "make it possible to have air unit movement not depend on reactor".

[Earthmichael]

I'm quite sure that if you nuke, Vendetta from the AI is permanent. At least that's what is said somewhere and I have never heard anything to the contrary.

I don't think atrocities need any changes apart from one thing - stuff like nerve gas or stapling (basically everything except PB) shouldn't count towards ecodamage. And that was really Earthmichael's main concern, that you can flood the entire world by gassing AI.

I'm quite sure that if you nuke, Vendetta from the AI is permanent. At least that's what is said somewhere and I have never heard anything to the contrary.

I don't think atrocities need any changes apart from one thing - stuff like nerve gas or stapling (basically everything except PB) shouldn't count towards ecodamage. And that was really Earthmichael's main concern, that you can flood the entire world by gassing AI.

I don't think atrocities need any changes apart from one thing - stuff like nerve gas or stapling (basically everything except PB) shouldn't count towards ecodamage. And that was really Earthmichael's main concern, that you can flood the entire world by gassing AI.

Unfortunately, that's hard-coded and likely to be on the hard side to fix.  It'd probably be doable, but significantly harder than a number of much more important hard-coded fixes.  I might put it on the list after "make it possible to have air unit movement not depend on reactor".

Kirov is right, that is exactly why I wanted to ban attrocities in the first place.  You get games that are nearly impossible to finish because of water.  I think it also makes senses from a game design viewpoint when there is no AI, but that is more rationalizing issue.  The main reason that I don't care much whether we ban attrocities in games with AI, is that the AI will commit attrocities anyway, and will cause water to rise, as I mentioned in my AAR on Nomads, which makes the scenario hard to finish.

If we could get rid of the eco-reation to attrocities, then I would no longer care if we banned them or not.

[Yitzi]

Kirov is right, that is exactly why I wanted to ban attrocities in the first place.  You get games that are nearly impossible to finish because of water.

Water games are quite finish-able, and of course you can just try to get a solar shade launched.
However, I will put "make it possible to have the 15th minor atrocity not count as a major atrocity for ecodamage purposes" on my modding list; "remove, or change the magnitude of, atrocity effects on ecodamage" is already on the list and I expect it to be in the first piece I put out (of which I am pleased to announce I have finished the first part (I think) and am making headway on the second, at least for SMAX.)

If we could get rid of the eco-reation to attrocities, then I would no longer care if we banned them or not.

Would you be willing to settle for "get rid of the eco-reaction to all atrocities, including Planet Busters"?  Because that's an option that is almost certainly going to be in my upcoming mod, since I need to do similar things for my own purposes anyway.

Another thing you can do is just use the existing global warming controls to reduce the rate at which the water rises as a result of any eco-damage, or even prevent it from happening at all.

That said, I still think that making atrocities have a minimum POLICE rating, at least, is desirable because it means that the Gaians' POLICE penalty is actually significant.

[Earthmichael]

One can finish any game; it is just irritating to deal with heavy rising water.  At some point, the polar ice caps should have completely melted and ended rising water.  But this does not seem to be the case.  I don't like having to manage a fleet of 200 super formers to keep my land constantly rising.

I would gladly get rid of the eco-reaction to all atrocities!  I would gladly get rid of rising water, period!

[Yitzi]

I would gladly get rid of the eco-reaction to all atrocities!

Barring unexpected circumstances, this will be possible in my ecodamage-mod-enabling mod.

I would gladly get rid of rising water, period!

This is something you can already do, at least for games where you can use your own rules (for GotM scenarios, it'd probably be considered cheating):
Go to alpha.txt (for SMAC) or alphax.txt (for SMAX), and find the line that says "Numerator/Denominator for frequency of global warming (1,2 would be "half" normal warming)."  Change the first number to 0.  Now (if the line does what it's supposed to) the only source of rising water will be if the council decides to melt the polar ice caps.

[Kirov]

One can finish any game; it is just irritating to deal with heavy rising water.  At some point, the polar ice caps should have completely melted and ended rising water.  But this does not seem to be the case.  I don't like having to manage a fleet of 200 super formers to keep my land constantly rising.

I would gladly get rid of the eco-reaction to all atrocities!  I would gladly get rid of rising water, period!

Ahh, so there's your Kryptonite... You've got such a nice coastline there, it would be pity if something happened to it...

But seriously, I want to consult that with the creators of Nomads. Because I tried to drown everything at one attempt (inspired by your story, by the way), when at some moment eco damage seemed to stopped working. No sea rise, not even mind worms, only fungal pops every turn. Maybe it's because I had a single base, but beforehand I did manage to increase the sea level by 733 m, but after that it was nothing, despite +1k ecodamage. I don't know sea rising mechanics too well, as I'm not crazy and try to avoid it like any other sane person, so could someone explain what happened there? Maybe the Nomads scenario is tweaked in that respect.

Do we have any Captain Planet's villain here? Is there a limit to what you can do?

[Buster's Uncle]

I doubt it's that way on purpose - what would be the point?

[Green1]

At CFC for thier oficial games for the various Civs, they have what they call a HoF mod. They make you use it both for multiplayer and for single player competitions. It contains the agreed upon fixes and rules for each version of Civ.

Now, I am more of a hermit sandbox type, but it might be cool for all you guys to have one special AC2.info "official" alphax.txt and agreed upon unoffficial patch mod.

As for atrocities, I think WMDs are part of the game but they did go overboard with the water level crap. That probably should be one of the things you guys would include in your AC2.info alphax.