HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed

[Kirov]

Hello guys,

With Eartmichael we decided to give it a try to a challenge and we could use a CMN. Since we play the Vets map, it seems like quick job. Our settings:

-   Earthmichael plays Aki-Zeta in the NE corner of the ring
-   I take Morgan to SW
-   other factions: 2 aliens in the two left starting positions, not really augmented (maybe they could a small patch of forest to spread and CentEco)
-   us: 2 colony pods, 2 formers, 4 scouts each

other settings: I guess map visible, no random events, no supply pods. Obviously no tech stagnation and no blind research. Earthmichael, where do you stand on Spoils of War? Usually I play with it, but I’m OK either way.

Special house rules: CBA and choppers banned, atrocities banned except for bas obliteration.

We want to make it ladder, unless it’s not allowed to have additional house rules then.

Earthmichael, apart from spoils – what about stockpile energy, crawler upgrading and reverse engineering? For me it’s yes, no and no, respectively.

Please help us for karma and experience points!

[Earthmichael]

I would like Spoils Of War off.  It nullifies one of Aki's main abilities.  If based on this, you want to switch to Aki, then I will still take Morgan.

Yes, on giving the aliens some extra forest and CentEco. 

If you mean crawler upgrading by energy or rushing, then I am good with banning this; it is definitely trying to cheap out on wonders.  But I will want to build any kind of crawler I want, such as a fast crawler or sea crawler, as long as I build the entire thing without any energy or rushing at all.

I don't know what the stockpile energy exploit is?  Can you explain? 

I am also OK with no reverse engineering, but I am not sure that it is very important.  The most that I have ever done is use a probe team to make a speed 2 scout early game, before I have doctrine mobility.  This does not seem like a big deal.  Are there other ways that reverse engineering can be exploited to greater effect?

[Kirov]

I would like Spoils Of War off.  It nullifies one of Aki's main abilities.  If based on this, you want to switch to Aki, then I will still take Morgan.

You're right. No problem, spoils off, we stay as we are.

If you mean crawler upgrading by energy or rushing, then I am good with banning this; it is definitely trying to cheap out on wonders.  But I will want to build any kind of crawler I want, such as a fast crawler or sea crawler, as long as I build the entire thing without any energy or rushing at all.

Rushbuying crawlers is usually allowed, the problem arises when you build a basic crawler and then upgrade it to a better deal for cheap. It's OK to build any crawler you want, I use rovers and trawlers as well. You can rushbuy them, too, just don't upgrade them to armored/special ability ones before cashing to wonders (I guess I would agree to upgrade a field crawler to defend a tile, just promise not to cash it to SP).

I don't know what the stockpile energy exploit is?  Can you explain? 

This is not really an exploit, just the game is slightly inconsistent here. When you complete a facility, you get cash as if you stockpiled energy for this last turn of building. However, this does not apply to units. You must insert stockpile energy to the queue after a unit to get the same effect. It's tedious and I was usually against this, but it really can help monumentum factions, so nowadays I'm support it as a means of balance.

So basically if you agree, remember to insert stockpile energy after any kind of unit you build. Then you'll get money in the same way as it already works for facilities.

I am also OK with no reverse engineering, but I am not sure that it is very important.  The most that I have ever done is use a probe team to make a speed 2 scout early game, before I have doctrine mobility.  This does not seem like a big deal.  Are there other ways that reverse engineering can be exploited to greater effect?

When a prober subverts an 8-1-2 clean unit, he may only build this particular kind of unit. However, it is possible to use the workshop to put that A8 or clean into other units you want. So I'm against it for obvious purposes, it was never meant to work like that.

[funbot]

This is not really an exploit, just the game is slightly inconsistent here. When you complete a facility, you get cash as if you stockpiled energy for this last turn of building. However, this does not apply to units. You must insert stockpile energy to the queue after a unit to get the same effect. It's tedious and I was usually against this, but it really can help monumentum factions, so nowadays I'm support it as a means of balance.

So basically if you agree, remember to insert stockpile energy after any kind of unit you build. Then you'll get money in the same way as it already works for facilities.

Oh thats how that goes? Oh crap, i though you Shouldnt put energy stockpile on the queue -_-'. Well, i must be first to admit that i've exploited this one a bit in WW-game already, will get it sorted right away in upcoming turns. Sry, i though googling was enough, but gues u also need to Understand what u read too 

--edit--

Or no, wait.. Uuuh, i got confused now..

[Kirov]

http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_buglist.shtml

44. If a base completes construction of a facility or secret project and its build queue is empty, then for that turn the base will accumulate energy as if production had been set to stockpile energy in addition to accumulating the usual amount of minerals.

45. If a base completes construction of a unit and its build queue contains stockpile energy as the next item to build, then for that turn the base will accumulate energy as if production had been set to stockpile energy in addition to accumulating the usual amount of minerals.

Soo... I'm right, ain't I?  This rule was always confusing, now you confused me, funbot.

[Kirov]

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/135532-Stockpile-Energy-Bug-Facilities-and-SP

Yep, now I'm quite sure I'm right. To quote Chaos Theory:

The only time you don't get extra ECs from finishing a facility is if another build order besides stockpile energy is after it in the queue. The only time you do get extra ECs from finishing a unit is if stockpile energy is after it in the queue.

and Straybow:

Your confusion is because of the default production. When building a unit the default after completion is to build another unit, and so the queue is never empty. With a facility you can't build another, so the queue is empty by default.

If you have an item in queue you don't get the energy after building a facility.

[Yitzi]

Speaking of cheap crawler-project tricks, you might also want to ban building a project by using crawlers that were built before you had the prerequisite tech for the project.  That way a project won't automatically go to whoever gets the prerequisite tech first.

Also, you might want to consider allowing atrocities only if you have nonnegative Police rating (essentially making it the same as nerve stapling).  That way they're still technically allowed, but not under FM.  (While not relevant in this game, it's also a nice rule for weakening Deirdre slightly, as she starts out with negative POLICE.)

[Earthmichael]

Thanks for the explanations!  OK, I agree with everything.  I will just have to remember the stockpile energy thing, since I have never inserted this in the queue before.

But now to repeat the big question: Will someone CMN for us?

[t_ras]

I'll take care. But Im a little bussy,so you'll have it next sunday.

[Kirov]

No problem, I'm more busy than usual these weeks, so I can wait.

[Yitzi]

Question: How would you deal with the Stockpile Energy issue if you ruled "no", but someone actually wanted to stockpile energy?  Would you just have them "throw away" the amount from the minerals that already went to the previous produced thing?

[t_ras]

Hard to say. If it was a little slip because the player forgot, then maybe the amount of energy is small and it can be ignored, it could work as you wrote or may be the player could desrtoy part of its own units. If it was done knowying then it is cheating and the player may even be banned.

[Kirov]

Question: How would you deal with the Stockpile Energy issue if you ruled "no", but someone actually wanted to stockpile energy?  Would you just have them "throw away" the amount from the minerals that already went to the previous produced thing?

If you say 'no' to this rule, you just have to accept the fact that facilities give additional money and units don't. You don't have to burn the cash in any way. And if you want to stockpile energy, just start relevant production (not in the queue).

[t_ras]

Hoo now I see, you meant "legaly" stockpiling energy...

[Yitzi]

And if you want to stockpile energy, just start relevant production (not in the queue).

Except that then you lose out on the legitimate overflow from the last thing you produced...