Discussion Re: Disabling crawlers

[Yitzi]

I'm thinking about how to improve the game and make it less of a "first to get X wins", and the more I think about it, the more I conclude that the culprit, over and over, is the supply crawler.  Here's what the supply crawler does:
1. It lets you "ramp up" your production at an alarming rate.  This favors a focus on early advantage at the expense of long-term planning, meaning that whoever's the first to get things (be it restriction lifting, crawlers themselves, or more bases) has a substantial advantage.
2. It lets you build projects very quickly (especially if they had crawlers prepared before they even got the tech), meaning that whoever gets the tech first will get the project and its substantial advantages.  Removing crawlers would mean you'd have to not only get the tech, but then build the project (or hurry it very expensively), which would give more mineral-focused factions a chance to catch up.

And that really seems to be all that crawlers are good for, so I think that banning them would make for a subtler and more complex game.  (There's no question that it would make for a very different game; the only question is in what way.)

So, can anyone think of any other ramifications, positive or negative, to disabling crawlers?

[Petek]

Disabling crawlers would remove one of the facets of the game (the other main one being the Unit Workshop) that distinguish it from other entries in the Civ series. As I see it, the real problem is that the AI doesn't use crawlers, at least nearly not as well as a human. Kyrub tried to improve AI crawler use in his patch but the AI still lags behind the human players.

Instead of removing them, why not merely weaken them? They could, for example, be moved higher in the tech tree or made more expensive to build. Right now, it's practically a no-brainer to build crawlers once you have IndAut. Modify them so that humans would have interesting alternatives (to pumping out crawlers) would add variety to the game. Of course, a human player could simply choose not to build crawlers, or at least not exploit them, as the game is configured now.

[Yitzi]

Disabling crawlers would remove one of the facets of the game (the other main one being the Unit Workshop) that distinguish it from other entries in the Civ series.

There are a few other facets that distinguish it from other entries in the Civ series:
-Social engineering.  In earlier Civ games there was just one government and that's it.  Later Civ games have multiple areas, but still don't have those areas interacting with each other and with natural faction bonuses the way SMAC does.
-Native Life.  Civ has barbarians (an early-game threat) and pollution (a late-game concern), with no connection between them.  SMAC combines the two, makes them relevant for most of the game, and has a far more complex mechanic for it; beyond everything else, that (and the resulting need to balance stability and production, assuming the "magic facilities" rule is banned and energy focus depowered/mineral focus made viable) is what really defines SMAC to me, as compared to other elements of the Civ series.
-The fluff/story is head and shoulders above any other Civ game.  In fact, the main page of this site reads:
"The game is praised for its complex gameplay, the science fiction storyline and the immersive atmosphere created with in-game writing and voice acting. However, the sci-fi elements came somewhat second after the speculative vision of the future society elements.
The player embarks himself on a transhuman journey and this ascent is depicted in a series of quotes and movies, giving remarkable depth to a genre normally impersonal and cold."

So story and complexity; crawlers have nothing to do with the first, and IMO they detract from the second by minimizing many of the potential trade-offs that there could be.

Instead of removing them, why not merely weaken them? They could, for example, be moved higher in the tech tree or made more expensive to build.

I considered that, and would go for that (much higher in the tech tree, much more expensive) if I saw a need, but as it is I can't think of a single use for them which does not translate into either "helping the guy who's ahead get even further ahead" or "making energy focus vastly superior for grabbing projects" (and we all know that energy focus needs a hit, not more help).

Right now, it's practically a no-brainer to build crawlers once you have IndAut. Modify them so that humans would have interesting alternatives (to pumping out crawlers) would add variety to the game.

Sounds like a good alternative, but I just don't see what supply crawlers contribute to the game.  To put it another way: Once crawlers are depowered enough for there to be interesting alternatives, what would be the cases in which crawlers should still be used?

[Petek]

You always can disable crawlers in your Alpha(x).txt.

[Yitzi]

Naturally, and if crawlers are to be disabled that's how to do it.  I was looking for anyone who might catch something I was missing for why they shouldn't be disabled; nobody in this thread did, but Earthmichael made a convincing case in another thread that removing them entirely is undesirable.

[Impaler]

Ah the eternal Crawler debate, Nerf or eliminate completely.

While agreeing with all the assessments of the Crawlers ludicrous power I must admit I still like them as a concept, if a flawed one at that.  Crawlers really make your Civ game feel like it MIGHT be set in the future ware manual labor in the rural environs of a city isn't people predominant occupation anymore.

My strategy for modding em is to move them up the tech tree a modest amount, of course I am also considerably slowing my tech rate to around 1/3rd of normal so their is that aspect as well.  I find my territory has been built up with more mixed use terraforming by then and I use the crawlers only on big Nutrient bonuses or rocky mines ware their is no waste.  I'm probably not using the Crawlers to their maximum effect, my habits have not been honed in the crucible of Multiplayer and I can completely understand people being unable to just 'pass' on optimum play to give the AI a fighting change as it takes a lot of enjoyment out of the game to hold back like that.

Increasing the row cost of the Crawler weapon might be another option to nerf the collection portion of their role, but you would still be able to use these more expensive crawlers for Project rushing (Indeed people make some 'Projects on wheels' super luxury crawlers with maxed armor plates and superfluous enhancements so they can more easily to cash em in on projects).  Without rushing projects crawlers might just be balance-able actually.  Alternatively you might increase Secret Project costs but I suspect the AI would be screwed by this big time.

[Kilkakon]

In LE I remove them almost completely. They are unbuildable, with 1 faction starting with 2 supply crawlers with hyptonic trance and synth armour. The Unity wreckage has the mining laser turned into a crawler as well.

[Yitzi]

My strategy for modding em is to move them up the tech tree a modest amount

That does stop the beeline to crawler tech, but it won't work to balance multiplayer, since they can always re-terraform.

I identify the following uses of crawlers, and associated problems:

1. They're used to get resources independent of population.  Unless crawlers are limited by population, this is irreparably imbalanced.
2. They're used to ferry resources from one base to another.  This may be broken if used to ferry all energy to your HQ, for instance, but is overall a valid use.
3. They're used to rush projects; this is not really broken if just used to allow you to put more than 1 base's production on a project, but is broken if you store up crawlers before you start building the project.

Without rushing projects crawlers might just be balance-able actually.

Perhaps, but they'd still need a huge nerf.

Alternatively you might increase Secret Project costs

So that you have to use crawlers?  No thank you.  And it still wouldn't fix the "storing up crawlers before you even have the tech to build the project" plan.

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How does this set of house rules (it's completely impossible with alpha.txt modding, and would be a pain to code even with an exe mod) sound:
-Crawler cost is decreased, down to that of probe teams, because we'll be severely nerfing their functionality.
-When you start building a crawler, you must declare it (to the CMN if there is one; otherwise all house rules will have to work on the honor system, so so will this) for one of two purposes:
  A. Resource convoy.  If you declare the crawler for this, it may be hurried or upgraded freely, but may only be used to convoy resources from one base to another (no convoying from a tile, and no adding to projects.)  At first, a base may gain up to 1 FOP per point of population from convoying; when you learn Industrial Automation that increases to 2, and at Matter Transmission it increases to 3.  Even after learning the later techs, you're limited to 1 FOP of each type per point of population.  (So a size 10 base could at first get 5 minerals and 5 nutrients, but not 5 minerals and 6 nutrients or 11 nutrients.  Once you learn Industrial Automation, it could get 5 min/6 nut, but still not 11 nutrients.  And once you learn Matter Transmission it could get 10 of each, but still not 11 of any one.)
  B. Project or prototype aid.  If you declare the crawler for this, you must choose a project or prototype that you are currently building, and then you can add the crawler to production for that project or prototype only.  (Exception: If the project is completed by another faction, and you immediately switch a base which was building it to another project, you can add the crawler to that base.)  A crawler declared for this may not be hurried or upgraded, though you can still add on any bells and whistles you want when you build it.

[Pickly]

Going the "any possibility I could imagine" route, I'd probably limit crawlers per city by support in some way, possibly support + industrial production (to provide some limit other than population, since that seems a better fit for a robotic resource gathering method.)  Costs could than be adjusted as needed.

Using the txt available methods, eliminating or not using them seem a fine use, or just limiting the use of them in some agreed way if playing in multiplayer.

[Yitzi]

Going the "any possibility I could imagine" route, I'd probably limit crawlers per city by support in some way, possibly support + industrial production

I considered a limit per city, but that'd encourage lots of small bases, which is already an ugly but effective strategy.  Limiting it in a way that depends on industrial production might work, though...I do think that INDUSTRY is a better one to use than SUPPORT, though...

How does "{base's free mineral production}/(10-INDUSTRY), rounded down" sound?  (As a bonus, this has an in-game meaning already; it's the maximum number of rows for a unit or facility in order to be able to produce it in 1 turn).  At 0 industry rating, a decent-sized city can support 2 or maybe even 3 crawlers, but widespread use will not be supportable until you get late-game mineral boosters/Nessus mining stations.  Throw in the project/prototype limits I mentioned earlier, and that should work.

[Kilkakon]

How hard would it be to keep track of those things? It seems like a lot of knowledge is required about the cities themselves and a good 10 seconds of math

[Yitzi]

How hard would it be to keep track of those things? It seems like a lot of knowledge is required about the cities themselves and a good 10 seconds of math

Yeah, the mathematical calculation is the downside...unless we just say "if a can't build an X-row unit/facility in one turn, it can't have X crawlers crawling tiles to it."  That's a fairly straightforward rule and usually easy to test.

[Impaler]

Why is "getting resources independent of population" inherently wrong when population is just an accumulation of nutrients (sometimes just a row or two), ware as a crawler is an accumulation of minerals.  Sure population requires nutrients perpetually but they are vastly more productive then a crawlers.  If I had collected nutrients to grow population instead of minerals to build the crawler I might have a comparable or even higher resource income.

Everything is just an accumulation of nutrients, minerals or energy that gives yet more of the same in a 'catalytic expansion' (aka snowball).

[Yitzi]

Why is "getting resources independent of population" inherently wrong when population is just an accumulation of nutrients (sometimes just a row or two), ware as a crawler is an accumulation of minerals.

Usually, population is a lot more than a row or two or even three (3 is all that's needed by crawlers, whether it's your first crawler for the base or your tenth), and on top of that it's limited by location and (unless you build more bases, which require their own infrastructure) hab complexes/drone control.

Also, please try to use proper spelling and punctuation; it makes you look more intelligent.

but they are vastly more productive then a crawlers.

"Vastly more"?  You can get an average of 4 energy (+1 with FM or Morgan+Wealth, +1 per elevation over the first) per square with an energy park, or 6 nutrients with farm/enricher/condenser.  What can population produce that exceeds that by so much?  (Forests are 7 FOP, only 1 more, and boreholes are substantially more limited in where you can place them.  Farm/enricher/solar-or-echelon can produce 4 nutrients and 4+bonuses under optimal conditions (naturally rainy with rolling terrain), but by that point you can get engineers and therefore farm/enricher/condenser with specialists is even better.  Since each point of population takes up 2 nutrients, the only strategy superior* to "crawl everything" is "crawl some of the spaces as condenser/farm/enricher, and work the rest as boreholes."

*And that's only until the most advanced specialists come along; crawling a borehole and having a citizen as a transcend is more productive than having that transcend work that borehole.

Some other changes (to specialists and ecodamage rules) might change that, though, which could make crawlers more balanced.

Everything is just an accumulation of nutrients, minerals or energy that gives yet more of the same in a 'catalytic expansion' (aka snowball).

And that snowball needs to be hugely slowed down if the game is to be more than "grab as much as you can as fast as you can".

[Buster's Uncle]

Y!  Manners, man; manners.