Civilization 4: Planetfall

[Green1]

Let's look at the unit workshop. First off, Planetfall does have a special ability system with a larger variety of spec abs than SMAC had. So in that area Planetfall certainly isn't inferior. What Planetfall doesn't have is free choice of attack strength, defense strength, and movement points (ADM).

SMAC's customization of ADM creates only one trade-off for unit design: cost versus ADM. A system of pre-designed units Civ4/Planetfall-style allows for unit types to be much more distinct, and as a result create more meaningful choice. Eg infantry vs chopper in Planetfall is AD<->M: infantry is strong but slow; chopper is fast but weaker. There are also three different infantry lines (flamethrower, genite, marine + their upgrades) each with their own benefits. Stuff like that isn't possible with SMAC.

Interesting way of putting it. The promotion system of Civ 4 is a lot quicker and seamless. Still, for folks who have never tried your team's mods, the lack of workshop does need to be pointed out. The lack of unit workshop is not really a negative, but an observation. But, you do bring up good points about the "ONE" design for needlejets.

Second point, elevation terraforming. I don't even see what that option added to SMAC's gameplay. Sure, I've created the occasional energy park, but what else was it used for?  And it is subject to the same trade-off as with the unit workshop: freedom versus meaningful choice. Elevation in Planetfall has more features designed around it than SMAC had. Besides affecting the output of certain terrain improvements, Planetfall doesn't allow movement between ridges and lowlands. This makes combat more tactical. These movement restrictions can be circumvented by choppers, or by building a bunker on a ridge you want to move to. Elevation also influences the spread of fungus: it can't spread on highlands and ridges, thus creating safe haven for Planet polluting players. Stuff like that would lose its meaning if players could just convert the entire world in an endless stretch of highlands. Giving the player limited tools to deal with the environment they ended up in allows for a more strategic game than the endless "freedom" of SMAC's sandbox.

This is where I disagree.

In Planetfall, I found the not being able to move between different terrains to be unintuitive as opposed to more "tactical".

Second, the raising and lowering of terrain features prominently in war, not just for energy parks. In an AAR I did, Miriam raised land to come over and show Lal some evangelism in the form of masses bloodthirsty troops. In an ancient AAR by Chuft, his faction utterly castrated a powerful aqua based custom alien faction by raising sea levels. So, we agree to disagree on that one.

Still, to this day though.. out of all the failed threads of hope and dreams for AC2.. you guys are the only ones that have produced anything both playable and enjoyable. I also love the way Civ 4 handles airpower over SMAX. Whoever did your terrain graphics needs a medal.

[BlaneckW]

I can live without unit workshop but I did not find that Planetfall was very close the spirit of the original.  I'm not sure they read the GURPS book, which can shed insight on characters like Yang.

[Green1]

Heck, I have not read the GURPS SMAC book yet either. Do not think it sould be a requirement for Maniac and crew. Those things are very rare and obscure books. Would be a interesting world to campaign in if you had a regular reliable pnp gamer group handy that can handle new things instead of DnD 3.5/4e or WoD products. Maybe someone has a copy of the stuff on peer to peer, since that would be the only economical way to view the stuff.

Myself, I have only run into one whole group that played GURPs in my lifetime. They were at an annual convention in Biloxi, MS. It seemed like they merely just brought the group there to conduct the regular game session they usually ran at a house as opposed to being too open to new players, so I did not get to try the system. I digress OT.

One of these days, I should crank out a playthrough of Planetfall so I can point out things I like and am not too thrilled over. Over all, though even with my purist and cynical gripes, I think all will be able to apreciate Maniac and crew's work. I think they are several patches further along than when I took it for a spin last time, so it deserves another look.

The GURPs deal does bring up something a bit off topic though - Surely Steve Jackson and crew that made the GURPS version had a larger bestiary than mindworms, fungal towers, sea lurks, isles of the deep, and locusts of chiron. While all 4x modding communities have extra factions and TCMs, the fantasy 4x gamers have us beat on one thing: monster booster packs!

[Maniac]

Yeah I haven't read GURPS, but I don't see why I should. It's not canon at all.

Anyway, a reason not to include terrain elevation changing was because I want the difference between land and sea to be meaningful. But now I'm thinking: that difference loses some of its meaning anyway when gravships become available. So it wouldn't be such a paradigm change if elevation terraforming became available around the same time. So good news, I'll put elevation terraforming on my to do list. But bad news: 1) my to do list is veeeeeeeeery long, and 2) it'll only become available near the end of the tech tree, so it won't be a game changing addition if that's what you're after.

[Green1]

No problem. One of the things that really anoys me on some of these mod "feedback" forums is these users that make demands or say something "sucks" and do not give positive feedback nor have any actual appreciation for the amount of "work" involved - particularly unpaid work done out of love.

[Kirov]

So good news, I'll put elevation terraforming on my to do list. But bad news: 1) my to do list is veeeeeeeeery long, and 2) it'll only become available near the end of the tech tree, so it won't be a game changing addition if that's what you're after.

I didn't realize - you can introduce raising terrain into Civ4 engine? 

[Green1]

If that is possible, that would be an impressive feat with the Civ4 engine.

I would want to make it well before gravships and stuff, but that is just my preference.

I wonder how the Civ 4 AI is going to handle it?

[Pickly]

The SDK/DLL in Civ 4 allows you to do all sorts of wild stuff, if you can figure it out (Which may or may not be that difficult, depending on how fast you pick up programming skills/how good your programming is.).  Terrain elevation would likely be one of the simpler things to do, at least as far as I can guess without directly looking at planetfall's code. (Although graphics may create some issues, have never really tried adjusting that beyond the very basics.)

[Kirov]

The SDK/DLL in Civ 4 allows you to do all sorts of wild stuff, if you can figure it out.

Wow, that's cool. What about the workshop then?

But I bet you couldn't shoehorn SMAC SE settings the way they are, could you?

[Alfapiomega]

Maniac, thanks for finding time to come here and answer some of the questions. I checked Youtube in my time of absence and while working on the LP of SMAC and there seems to be no proper Planetfall LP. As a fan of Civ4 and SMAC I was thinking it might be a good way how to introduce more people to your mod. Just let me know if you would like it or not.

I already downloaded all the game files from Sourceforge and I will try to assembe it in the next few days, then give it a try Also if you would like me to do an LP I would appreciate you taking time to watch the LP as I progress and point out some hints so I can make it more interesting for viewers

[Green1]

Maniac, thanks for finding time to come here and answer some of the questions. I checked Youtube in my time of absence and while working on the LP of SMAC and there seems to be no proper Planetfall LP. As a fan of Civ4 and SMAC I was thinking it might be a good way how to introduce more people to your mod. Just let me know if you would like it or not.

I already downloaded all the game files from Sourceforge and I will try to assembe it in the next few days, then give it a try Also if you would like me to do an LP I would appreciate you taking time to watch the LP as I progress and point out some hints so I can make it more interesting for viewers

I agree. A LP of Planetfall would get a few views and more DLs on CFC. I am even contemplating a future AAR myself. Maniac's take on Morgan with Civ 4: BtS corporation rules sounds...interesting.

They actually had a good PBEM of Planetfall that lasted a long time on CFC I saw.

[Matt the Czar]

I feel like its a mini SMAC 2.  But I wonder why the orbital infantry dont look like the M.I. from Starship Troopers

[Maniac]

I didn't realize - you can introduce raising terrain into Civ4 engine? 

Depends what you're talking about. I mean simple changes between water<->lowland<->hills/highlands<->peak/ridges. Giving each tile an elevation level in meters and adding sea level rises, as SMAC had, would be more work.
More replies later.

[Green1]

@Maniac:

Since I have a more powerful laptop than when I first cranked your mod up, I decided to give it a go a week or so ago. One of the things that made it a bummer was performance issues on larger maps. I was literally waiting for the comp between turns 5-8 minutes between turns mid to late game. With the more powerful comp, even then there are still hangs on larger maps.

Not sure what you guys can do about it, but the vast majority of single player sandbox SMAC (and, for that matter Civ) fans are huge map players.

Also: how is it going on the aliens?

[Buster's Uncle]

Hey Green -

What would you think of somone trying to get some Planetfall MP going here?  Anybody interested?  We'd accomodate the heck out of something like that...