Atrocities or not in human multiplayer games?

[Yitzi]

On the copters:

I remember I tinkered a bit with txt files and I have the impression that increasing the chopper cost doesn’t solve the problem. You’d just have less of them, but they’d still comprise the most of your army. They are simply that good. The idea I can offer is to cut down the movement of air units in half (or by one third). Then you would be forced to rely on ground units.

Wait, if you go choppers (or even CBA), can't the other guy just get AAA units to defend more cost-effectively?  Or interceptors to scramble and kill the choppers?

I still firmly believe that the best unit in the game is your humble supply crawler.

Clearly, which is why they need to be made more expensive.  I favor a base cost of 36, but with the default (fission infantry unboosted) crawler only costing 5 rows.

[Earthmichael]

On the SPs:

I must say your opinion really piqued my curiosity about your gameplay. For one, it’s the first time I see an experienced player disregarding good intel so carelessly. I’d pay a medium-sized base to get enemy’s infiltration and then another one not to get infiltrated.

And I can’t really follow your choice of SPs, either. It’s interesting that you make an impression of an aggressive (tho I prefer the term ‘proactive’ ) player, eager to send an armed excursion. On the other hand, you picked the two SPs which only fully shine midgame, with the advent of EcoEng/EnvEcon, and seem perfect for a micro-managing avid builder. So I’m curious, which is it?

I don't discard good intel carelessly.  If my probe team gets to a base, you can be guaranteed I will infiltrate before any other mission, even if I am drooling over some tech the enemy has.  But on a large map, the value of infiltration does not really have a big impact on the game until we get into conflict.  And once we get into conflict, I am fairly certain I can achieve infiltration regardless of how hard you try to prevent it.  I have been known to give up a border base to an enemy exploratory force, just because I knew that I could infiltrate before I took it back, and the worst the enemy could do to me is sell off one building per turn.

My choice of best secret projects depends upon the map.  Note that I was talking about a large map, with presumably widely spaced factions.  In this case, it is the timing that makes me put less value on infiltration.  Because I do not think that it will seriously benefit the other player that much until turn 60 or so.

On the other hand, benefits from ME starts with turn 1, and WP helps very early as well.  I get to enjoy the benfits maybe 50 turns earlier.

Perhaps you have failed to pick up on some of the subtler benefits of ME.  Since I like to get it, it is probably to my advantage to not blatantly state why I like it, to reduce the competition for it.

As for WP, the main early value is that one can build road and forest in fewer turns, not that it unlocks boreholes and such.

As for the early armed excursion verses builder, it strictly depends on the map.  If I start very close to some enemies, like the WFOS game, I try to attack early on.  Of course, in this case, I found myself with an enhanced Sparta AI on one side, and enhanced Usurpers AI on the other side.  I was not foolish enough to attack, but my early build of forces was quite useful to defend their incursions in my terratory.

On the other hand, the balanced vets map is definitely a builders map.  So I would certainly play a builder strategy on that map.

[Earthmichael]

On the copters:

I remember I tinkered a bit with txt files and I have the impression that increasing the chopper cost doesn’t solve the problem. You’d just have less of them, but they’d still comprise the most of your army. They are simply that good. The idea I can offer is to cut down the movement of air units in half (or by one third). Then you would be forced to rely on ground units.

Wait, if you go choppers (or even CBA), can't the other guy just get AAA units to defend more cost-effectively?  Or interceptors to scramble and kill the choppers?

These solutions are not as cost effective.   AAA defensive units and interceptors cost more.  Choppers are cheap to build.

One of the main problems with choppers is that a single chopper can mow down half a dozen terraformers and supply crawlers in a single sweep.  Even if you do wipe out the chopper afterwards, the single chopper may already have taken out enemy units that were many times his cost.

[Yitzi]

These solutions are not as cost effective.   AAA defensive units and interceptors cost more.  Choppers are cheap to build.

Really?  By my calculations:
-Chaos choppers (8 attack) cost 5 rows of minerals.
-AAA silksteel sentinels (8 defense vs. air, and substantially lower tech) cost 4 rows of minerals; you can go as high as AAA Probability Sentinels (12 defense vs. air) before it costs more than 5.
-Impact interceptors (8 attack vs. air) cost 4 rows of minerals; you can go as high as Missile interceptors (12 attack vs. air) before it costs more than 5.  And I'm not sure, but I think that unless the chopper also has air superiority (which halves its attack against ground units) it uses its defense, which is presumably 1.

So you're getting equal capability at 80% of the cost (or a lot less if you use build-and-upgrade methods), or 150% the power at equal cost.  Choppers really aren't that cheap; at low armor amounts they're roughly equivalent to rovers.

There is a narrow window once you get fusion where the choppers are cheaper because the ability cost is added on after the reactor minimum, but once you get access to fusion laser or tachyon bolt, the chopper is again as expensive as the counter (and by Plasma Shard it becomes more expensive.)

Of course, if that's still too much, you could remove the cost of Air Superiority and price AAA the same as Trance, and then it'd be no problem at all.

One of the main problems with choppers is that a single chopper can mow down half a dozen terraformers and supply crawlers in a single sweep.  Even if you do wipe out the chopper afterwards, the single chopper may already have taken out enemy units that were many times his cost.

That's more of an issue, since that lets him use laser choppers, which are indeed cheap, and you might not have enough interceptors to kill them all.  But that's only a problem if you move undefended formers and crawlers near his bases/airbases/carriers (or near where his carriers can move to), and why would you do such a thing?

[Earthmichael]

If the opponent can reach with interceptors, use the cheap copters to draw out the interceptors.  Then mow down all of the interceptors with your own air superiority units.

As for range, I just drop down a colony pod, or build an air base formers, or capture a city to get the base of operations that I need.

[Yitzi]

If the opponent can reach with interceptors, use the cheap copters to draw out the interceptors.  Then mow down all of the interceptors with your own air superiority units.

You can't exactly "mow down" interceptors with your own air superiority units; when one interceptor attacks another, they both use their attack rating (similarly to artillery duels), so unless one side has an attack bonus or technology or morale advantage, you lose as much as you destroy on average.

As for range, I just drop down a colony pod, or build an air base formers, or capture a city to get the base of operations that I need.

If you're able to keep a fresh or captured city in enemy territory, or construct an air base there, and keep your copters intact for a full turn there, then you probably deserve the ability to do heavy damage (if you can do it without significant risk, you've probably effectively won anyway; drop units are expensive, and that's the only way to get a substantial number of defenders there so he doesn't just move in and kill your forces).  And of course if he has magtubes and sees your base and the copters there, he can use that turn to move his formers and crawlers in the area to safety (or defensive units to protect them if he has spares) until your choppers have been killed.  You do end up costing him what the formers and crawlers would have produced if he doesn't have the units to form at least a defensive perimeter, but unless he's going really heavy on the crawlers (a strategy that probably could use being taken down a peg or three anyway) it's not going to be crippling.

And on top of that, he can always just surround your airbase/base with defensive units (or air units if none of your copters have air superiority), and then your copters can't get through.

Choppers are devastating against an unprepared player if you focus on noncombat targets, but they're too restricted to catch him by surprise, and without surprise they can't do as much damage if he knows how to respond, unless he's using one very specific strategy.

[Earthmichael]

You also need to look at the defensive side of things.  If I have a couple of choppers helping defend a city, I can mow down a pile of grounds attackers, and still retreat to the safety of my city, where any air attacker has to contend with my AAA defenders with an areospace complex.

The land attackers become largely inconsequential because they can be mowed down so easily by choppers.

As for the air superiority battle I mentioned early, the interceptor normally takes a bit of damage typically 10%-20% killing the copter, so the air superiority copter can usually win.  And when it wins, it does not have to hang around for another interceptor to kill it, but the helicopter can retreat back to the safety of a city or airbase, something a needlejet cannot do.

You also just have to look at actual games.  On any game where copters are not banned, they simply dominate the game in terms of production of copters verses production of any other combat unit.  Can you honestly tell me that your games have not been like this???

[Yitzi]

You also need to look at the defensive side of things.  If I have a couple of choppers helping defend a city, I can mow down a pile of grounds attackers, and still retreat to the safety of my city, where any air attacker has to contend with my AAA defenders with an areospace complex.

Unless those ground attackers are stacked with AAA defensive units.  Choppers might get a lot of attacks per turn, but they take damage just as well as anyone else.

As for the air superiority battle I mentioned early, the interceptor normally takes a bit of damage typically 10%-20% killing the copter, so the air superiority copter can usually win.  And when it wins, it does not have to hang around for another interceptor to kill it, but the helicopter can retreat back to the safety of a city or airbase, something a needlejet cannot do.

True...that is a strong advantage of choppers.  I may have to think about this...

You also just have to look at actual games.  On any game where copters are not banned, they simply dominate the game in terms of production of copters verses production of any other combat unit.  Can you honestly tell me that your games have not been like this???

I haven't really played multiplayer, but often the easiest fix to a strategy is just finding the counter.

[Kirov]

  I have been known to give up a border base to an enemy exploratory force, just because I knew that I could infiltrate before I took it back, and the worst the enemy could do to me is sell off one building per turn.

He who forgot to bring probe defenders along with his invading army, made a big mistake. And you can't just count on enemy's mistakes like that. If overwhelmed, he should have just traded the base to the AI.

On the other hand, benefits from ME starts with turn 1, and WP helps very early as well.  I get to enjoy the benfits maybe 50 turns earlier.

Perhaps you have failed to pick up on some of the subtler benefits of ME.  Since I like to get it, it is probably to my advantage to not blatantly state why I like it, to reduce the competition for it.

Far from saying that WP or even ME are weak, I just think their full potential shines mid-game. On the other hand, PTS, VW and HGP work 100% early on to generate the turn advantage.

By the time you get to IA, you can choose between PTS, VW, WP and ME, and HGP joins soon afterwards. If ME is your first or even second choice, I am somewhat surprised. Guard your secret well.


And you're right, the setting ME vs. EG from turn 1 is less unbalanced the bigger maps. We'll see, I'm not really in favour of pro-builder maps and usually prefer medium-sized maps.

[sisko]

If overwhelmed, he should have just traded the base to the AI.

that is usually forbidden in MP. in fact rule #9 here says so.

[Kirov]

I haven't really played multiplayer, but often the easiest fix to a strategy is just finding the counter.

Yitzi, I believe Earthmichael is right. If you use AAA defenders and the enemy has choppers, then the initiative and mobility (well, and flexibility;)) is on his side. He may freely take out your crawlers/formers, bomb improvements, block your movements with ZOC.

And if you have interceptors, he brings them as well, so it's again all about air power. If Brian Reynolds asked me for a quote to MMI, it would be "whoever has more air units wins".

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some mixed armies transported in convoys on full sea, heavy artillery, recon units and what not. But I won't, because with air power ground units are good mainly to take over bases emptied clean by choppers.

In fact, one of the most powerful if slightly less subtle strategy is the infamous "drop & chop", when you mow down defenders with choppers and jump in with parachuters. Deadly and brute, and basically you need only your best attack choppers and some cheap drop units.

I'd be happy to change that, but it requires some house rules and/or changes to alphax.txt.

[Kirov]

that is usually forbidden in MP. in fact rule #9 here says so.

I know about trading, but you are allowed to give it for free, right? IIRC, it was a standard in many games, specifically to get rid of a base on the verge of being probed.

[Earthmichael]

Far from saying that WP or even ME are weak, I just think their full potential shines mid-game. On the other hand, PTS, VW and HGP work 100% early on to generate the turn advantage.

I totally agree about PTS and VW.  But we were talking about EG, and if I start comparing it to SPs that cost 50% more, OF COURSE they are more powerful.  As for HGP, you can keep it; I would definitely take WP or ME over it.

[Kirov]

I totally agree about PTS and VW.  But we were talking about EG, and if I start comparing it to SPs that cost 50% more, OF COURSE they are more powerful.  As for HGP, you can keep it; I would definitely take WP or ME over it.

OK, for a moment I thought ME is like your favourite early game SP. Still, the situation we're talking about, EGv.ME prebuilt in turn 1 is quite artificial. And in their respective real-game appearance, I wouldn't hesitate for too long.

Let's agree to disagree, but I still will try to ban EG in 4-player games I'm in. And I'm willing to discuss the atrocities in return.

[Yitzi]

Perhaps you have failed to pick up on some of the subtler benefits of ME.  Since I like to get it, it is probably to my advantage to not blatantly state why I like it, to reduce the competition for it.

The main problem with ME is that it's single-base; it therefore only is very strong if you're playing a crawler-heavy strategy (which, admittedly, is already pretty powerful, but any strategy or rule change that substantially reduces the effectiveness of crawlers will depower ME substantially.)

Yitzi, I believe Earthmichael is right. If you use AAA defenders and the enemy has choppers, then the initiative and mobility (well, and flexibility;)) is on his side. He may freely take out your crawlers/formers, bomb improvements, block your movements with ZOC.

Only within 3-4 spaces of the border; unless he's able to penetrate your border easily (in which case you've probably got problems with or without choppers), that's a pretty small portion of your territory, so moving out crawlers and formers and replacing improvements is as much of a big deal.  ZoC only works when you park your units all over, for which needlejets are actually superior to choppers.  (And if the enemy has a mixed force of interceptors and SAM (air superiority on a land chassis), parking air units is really just suiciding them; interceptors can kill any non-interceptor air units easily, and SAM should win easily against comparable interceptors because of the 100% bonus vs. air and 50% penalty vs. land by both sides, though I'm not sure about that.)

And if you have interceptors, he brings them as well, so it's again all about air power.

Except that if he has that many interceptors, and his base is that close (I seem to remember that interceptors have reduced range), you might be able to just march on his base with a force that includes AAA defensive units.  Air units are powerful in economic warfare, but tend to fare poorly in direct conflict (since a AAA defensive unit will generally beat an equivalent-tech air unit at comparable or lesser cost).

If you really want to see how powerful choppers are for direct combat, try playing some games with the house rule that you can have choppers but can't use them to attack noncombat units.  I suspect that with proper tactics by defenders that will be sufficient to make choppers not used.

In fact, one of the most powerful if slightly less subtle strategy is the infamous "drop & chop", when you mow down defenders with choppers and jump in with parachuters. Deadly and brute, and basically you need only your best attack choppers and some cheap drop units.

How is that powerful?  It fails if the enemy has AAA defenders, and fails even harder if the base has an aerospace complex (which not only gives a huge bonus against chopper attackers, but prevents air drops in the vicinity.)

Let's agree to disagree, but I still will try to ban EG in 4-player games I'm in. And I'm willing to discuss the atrocities in return.

Why ban EG?  If someone's not ICSing it's that powerful (as without a ton of bases, a low-level facility in each one isn't that absurd), and if they are ICSing it would be more beneficial to ban ICS instead.