Should unit abilities be mostly free?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Contrary to say such no brainer as super former, this one is a choice player has to make: use it facing large number of opponent air units or not, otherwise. Therefore, it should cost something to support this choice. Should make unit more economically effective against air units but less against others. Vanilla actually follows this guideline pretty nicely pricing such abilities at 25-50% of their effect.

I would say the cost (both in construction and support, ha ha) of having to build different units for different purposes is the cost. This could help the AI. The AI can't execute massive blitzs, we can. It'd be nice if they had more incentive to just build all those units so at least we'll get tripped up if they fill their bases with ECM and AAA garrisons without paying a premium. It doesn't matter much for humans because you probably have a lean defense outside of borders with your nastiest neighbors, right?

Help AI managing the game is a valid argument but generic one, though. Obviously, it is much easier programming AI for feature poor game (tic-tac-toe) then feature reach one. Just by sheer efforts of processing these feature and their interrelations. Any simplification in rules lead to AI programming simplification. This applies equally to all features. Therefore, it is not very distinctive argument.

Again, I am all aware of AI helping rules simplification but this argument should not be mixed in pure feature balance discussion.

[EmpathCrawler]

That's an awfully small map, that you're holding up as some kind of model of general play.  It's just not relevant to the game in general.  If you're on a bigger map, you're gonna spend more time building infrastructure before you go clobbering.

Do you even realize what an off-the-wall "oh you're done with Formers already" play bias that sounds like?  It's like we're playing completely different games.  Who knows, maybe we are.  Do you have any After Action Reports of your games?  Then we could at least evaluate "the play style where Formers aren't that relevant".

Most of the recent AARs on this site, I wrote them, so feel free to examine my use of Formers by way of comparison.  I will say, I rarely do Echelon Mirrors.  I almost never do Condensers, and I never do Thermal Boreholes.  Sometimes I drill Aquifers if I've got nothing better to do.  I don't raise terrain to try to "improve a hillside" because it's too random what happens.  I do tend to make Soil Enrichers eventually, but it's often a "nothing better to do" thing.

My primary terraforming philosophy is "forest and forget".  Other stuff is filling in the cracks, where forest isn't appropriate.  I build rail networks.

The map size doesn't matter. On a larger map, you'll have more bases, and more bases means more Formers if you're building 1 per base. So it scales, everything except time because you always have the same amount of turns. Did you read the graph? It perfectly explains why getting your earliest Formers merked by a worm hurts so much, but later in the game you hardly notice if they get swept up in some death war.

You're using forest and forget, the least Former-turn intensive strategy there is. You're outright stating you don't build the most turn-intensive stuff and you only do some terraforming because you have nothing better to do. I actually terraform quite similarly to you. You clearly don't need Super Formers to power through some bottleneck of terraforming and are making my point for me, or the bottleneck is of your own making because you didn't build enough Formers early on. Building a mag tube blitz line to your enemies is a military tactic that you could still accomplish just fine with plain Formers, and I'm sure that the marginal extra cost of Super Formers doesn't really impact your ability to make the blitz all that much. So why make the ability cost anything at all? Or, if they're "super" important, why do you still have them costing the same as vanilla?

[EmpathCrawler]

I admit I have replaced "most" -> "all" but, I guess, it didn't change the statement.

I agree that horde of existing former makes building super former not so imperative. I would not argue about this any further as it is not too important for me. When do you think is a good time to unlock super former?

For it to have a significant effect maybe at level 4 or 5 maybe? I don't know. Industrial Automation may be a little too early, or maybe not.

Help AI managing the game is a valid argument but generic one, though. Obviously, it is much easier programming AI for feature poor game (tic-tac-toe) then feature reach one. Just by sheer efforts of processing these feature and their interrelations. Any simplification in rules lead to AI programming simplification. This applies equally to all features. Therefore, it is not very distinctive argument.

Again, I am all aware of AI helping rules simplification but this argument should not be mixed in pure feature balance discussion.

Helping the AI is incidental, but nice when it works out. This is where I started: "It seems like the limitation of only getting one or two abilities per unit is the cost [of an ability]." Even Firaxis themselves once thought abilities needed a baroque pricing system by the look of all those unused options and then backtracked into the present "eh make it 25%". I'm not going that much further than them to suggest that abilities mostly be free. The units themselves still aren't free.

[Nexii]

Yes, they should mostly be free. 25-50% more cost is crazy and usually you're better off with vanilla unit spam. With lower ability costs those techs are encouraged.

Caveat is that 2 abilities is quite strong and shouldn't come until later in the game. And a very few are too strong at free cost (mostly Wave/Sporific), rest are ok

[bvanevery]

The map size doesn't matter.

Uh, huh.  Show me your AAR on a Huge map.  I've got dozens.

On a larger map, you'll have more bases, and more bases means more Formers if you're building 1 per base. So it scales, everything except time because you always have the same amount of turns.

You seem to have forgotten that distances on maps increase by a square rule.  The relationship is not linear.

Did you read the graph?

Nope.  I've got countless years of data, and modding time, on when Formers are / aren't useful.  They're mainly not useful when the number of them that you have, exceeds the speed at which they can move forwards over bad terrain.  The hovertank chassis solves that problem, and the Xenoempathy Dome certainly mitigates it in many cases.

But now I'll indulge the reading of the graph.  BRB.  More to say in a 2nd post.

[bvanevery]

Ok I started to read the graph.  I was immediately put off by the statement:

Suppose the game lasts 100 turns,

In the core gameplay and modding universe I live in, that's ridiculous.  Games on Huge maps don't end in 100 turns.  They've barely begun at 100 turns.  You might end a game at 350 turns if you're really really serious about it.  300 turns, I'm not sure it's doable.  I'm not known for speed demoning, so maybe I've missed something over all these years, but it doesn't sound terribly doable.  In my modding I've closed many exploits that might give someone a straighter path to victory.

I'm actually playing a game right now with the Believers, where I'm trying to remember the idea of "maximal quick destruction", just to see what I can do currently in my mod.  They started on the Monsoon Jungle.  Building up that immediate area, still seems like the greatest source of long term profit.  My 1st victim could be the Pirates, because they're settled all around me.  But, I also don't consider them much of a threat.  Maybe I should go after someone farther afield, like the Hive.  Maybe maybe maybe.  It's MY 2168.  Here's the world.  BTW, I'm winning.

Details Believing in exploration

Believing in exploration

Almost forgot, just met the University on the far side of the map, and they immediately declared war on me.  I could go kill them.  Bit of a sealift, this early.

You're using forest and forget, the least Former-turn intensive strategy there is.

Forests cost 6 turns in my mod.  I also plant them at a distance from each other, for the most part.  I certainly do a lot of manual labor getting them done.  Also, I do work farmland.  Farm and a solar collector.  I believe in balance of inputs.  There comes a time when farms aren't that useful or important anymore, but it's much later, around when Super Formers are available.

and you only do some terraforming soil enrichers because you have nothing better to do.

FTFY

or the bottleneck is of your own making because you didn't build enough Formers early on.

Deciding which bottleneck to quash, at any given moment, is core gameplay. 

Building a mag tube blitz line to your enemies is a military tactic that you could still accomplish just fine with plain Formers,

I really don't think you play on Huge maps much at all.  That enemy on the other side of the world from you?  You're using Super Formers.

So why make the ability cost anything at all?

Because "what to quash" doesn't mean anything when you insist on a game of freebies.

Look are you just bored with the length of SMAC?  Is that what all this "I want free stuff" is really about?

Or, if they're "super" important, why do you still have them costing the same as vanilla?

For one thing, I'm using the stock binary AI.  I'm not going to change things to the point that the AI doesn't want to pay for something.  Not without a good reason.

For another thing, paying cost=1 ain't broke.

[bvanevery]

Caveat is that 2 abilities is quite strong and shouldn't come until later in the game.

I recently have totally opposite policy.  2 abilities come early in the game, and mostly you pay for them.  The main driver of 2 abilities early, is wanting to nerf mindworms.  Gotta make Trance something the AI will add to various units.  Police with Clean Reactors is a secondary consideration.