Reimagined Original Factions

[bvanevery]

Blah blah God's Plan blah blah one of God's creatures blah blah Whatever.  Christians always have a way of explaining the world in terms of God.  From my atheist perspective, that's their basic problem.  But I have no doubt whatsoever, that Miriam can find a way of explaining Planet as godly, if she wants to.  She's perfectly capable of doing it about everything else in the physical universe.  "God is quite a bit more clever than they thought, and an angry God is waiting just beyond the last theorem."  When you authorize yourself to constantly shift the goalpost, any explanation of reality is possible.

Which is why Zhakarov zings about people believing what they desire to be true, instead of what the evidence shows to be likely and possible.

"Christians are anti-environmentalist" is at least a curiously American perception, due to their alignment with the Republican party, which is also dominantly anti-enviornmentalist for completely different reasons.  It's actually pretty much the same sort of stereotyping as "Christians are pro-business pro-money".  YMMV for other countries, but I know how the Christian stereotypes work in the USA.

[vonbach]

Miriam is a parody of the church lady from Saturday night live. She's designed as a evil warmonger for the left to beat up on.
The politics of this game are so far left its not even funny. The whole game is anti christian.

[Nexii]

Lol. I did put Hive and Believers down to erratic personality from aggressive. I think pacifist would be as much of a stretch though.

As I see it no one is really portrayed as good in SMAC. Left or right wing. There's plenty of aggressive on both side, plenty of hypocrasy and idealism.

[vonbach]

Lol. I did put Hive and Believers down to erratic personality from aggressive. I think pacifist would be as much of a stretch though.

As I see it no one is really portrayed as good in SMAC. Left or right wing. There's plenty of aggressive on both side, plenty of hypocrasy and idealism.

Both the Gaians and the peackeepers are idealized. The Gaians especially so.

[bvanevery]

Lol. I did put Hive and Believers down to erratic personality from aggressive.

I also made my Hive Erratic.  I didn't see evidence of them having the military prowess in practice, to be Aggressive.  Still true in my mod.  Not sure if I need to do something about it.

I tried Erratic Believers for awhile, and also had them as sort of Morgan lite.  "Tithings make the church solvent."     Worshippers of the Almighty Dollar.  But they didn't perform that well, and I also had to nerf Morgan back down to +1 ECONOMY instead of +2.  I played with a MORALE bonus, then decided that wasn't so in character for them, that I didn't want another Conqueror Marr faction.  I felt play mechanically constrained, that I didn't have enough variety among factions.  Also I was opposed to them having PROBE as their play mechanic, as I don't see a reason why Christians should be especially good at that.  I did give them unconvertability, you can't mind control them.  Running out of options, I reinstated their 'fanatic' attack bonus although I don't call it that in their faction description.  I made them Aggressive since it's in their best interest to attack.

[Nexii]

I have noticed the Believers will go Free Market even with those huge research penalties. It's kind of funny since it's more of a money bonus. Megachurches for all.

I might try Morgan at +2 ECON yet to constrast him with Data Angels and Drones more. Though it requires some very steep downsides. -2 SUPPORT might do it, though I could barely imagine FM at -4 SUPPORT lol. Still +4 ECON while at +4 GROWTH seems amazing

Same with Drones at +2 IND to set them apart more again. Such a powerful benefit although I guess I did give Believers +2 GROWTH which is about as strong.

What factions do you think most fit the reduced hurry bonus? I had it on Drones, but it'll be too much to give it to a +2 IND version I think.

Morgan seems the most obvious for Interest bonus. It could fit the Data Angels too, I had them as sort of in charge of the EC banks

[vonbach]

That's one of the problems I have with the Believers. They're designed for one strategy rushing with swarms of units and they aren't even very good at that.
She needs to be completely redesigned to be a real faction. She should be the growth faction and she shouldn't have research penalties either.
That's just the result of the prejudices of the people that made the game. Anti Christian hate is the only one that's allowed anymore.
Just like the Gaians are idealized and ludicrously powerful if played right. You basically get a free army.
Peacekeepers have growth bonuses and double votes so if you can fend off the AI its an "I win" button.

[Nexii]

Personally I kind of doubt the devs made factions good or bad based on ideologies. Gaia got the most favorable lore and was average at best. Of the originals I'd rank them:
University, PKs, Hive, Gaia, Believers, Sparta, Morgan. And CyCon, Drones, Pirates probably all ranked above PKs. Cult was even worse than Morgan. Angels were probably 2nd from worst.

What would Believers have if not negative research, as a penalty?

I'm working on versions of Morgan at +2 ECON and Drones at +2 IND to make them feel more unique.

[vonbach]

I'd give the Believers economy or efficiency penalties. Probably economy. Drones are easily the most powerful faction in human hands, at least in my opinion.
You literally don't notice the penalty once you get going and it doesn't take long.
University comes close though.

[Nexii]

Yea I've kind of wondered which faction would be best in human hands for my set. I cut them down to 4 benefits each which is stlll a lot

I feel like perhaps Cult or Gaia. Because a human player knows how to abuse the terraforming advantages better. CyCon perhaps too. The AI is very swingy, it doesn't know to rebuild Punishment Spheres unfortunately.

Drones I put just under University for stock factions. If only because you can get blown out early like Believers. Once into the midgame they always did fine. Believers were kind of like this too honestly. Fanatic bonus is amazing if you can just stay even on tech.

How about INTEREST, -10 for Believers? Instead of -ECON. To represent tithing, a tenth of your income that goes to the church. Well its worse than that it's a tenth of your wealth lol. Negative econ believers might be interesting. More ascetic would probably mean Free Market aversion rather than knowledge.

[vonbach]

How about INTEREST, -10 for Believers? Instead of -ECON. To represent tithing, a tenth of your income that goes to the church. Well its worse than that it's a tenth of your wealth lol. Negative econ believers might be interesting. More ascetic would probably mean Free Market aversion rather than knowledge.

You assume its a church when its more a religious congregation and thats not the same thing. I always imagines them as small town america on another planet.
I've gotten to the point where  I don't always give my factions penalties unless I feel its warranted. Half of my factions don't have penalties at all.
Will negative interest even work? It might be interesting to try.

[bvanevery]

I might try Morgan at +2 ECON

Don't blow the lid off the dynamic range of ECON in your table.  I did +2 Morgan for awhile.  Then the AI tried to corner the energy market with only 1000 credits!  It was way too ridiculous.  I'd have to go back to look at what my table was like before I toned it down.

[Nexii]

Yea I did see that in a game where Morgan bought out in 2184. I think it was partly the 3% interest that pushed him over. It doesn't sound like much but it's a doubling in EC every 25 turns. so 100 starting energy can become almost 1k by 100 turns. I lowered that to 2%.

Morgan and Drones might be ok at +2 ECON and +2 IND respective. I didn't give Morgan free facility and the one for Drones isn't economic in nature (Skunkworks).

I put most of the instant victory things a bit later in the game for tech. Reminded me of a similar game where PKs were on Monsoon Jungle and got Empath Guild to end the game right there. Might have been 50-60 turns in with all factions alive.

Right now in my SE set you can only get +2 ECON early from FM. So Morgan can get +4 at most which would be the same as before. Also, +4 and +5 ECON are the same base energy production. Whether it's intended or not the soc table for economy should read like:

-3, -2 energy each base
-2, -1 energy each base
-1, -1 energy at HQ base
0, Standard energy rates
1, +1 energy each base
2, +1 energy each square!
3, +1 energy/sq; +2 energy/base; +1 commerce rating!
4, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +2 commerce rating!!
5, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +3 commerce rating!!!

[EmpathCrawler]

Yea I've kind of wondered which faction would be best in human hands for my set. I cut them down to 4 benefits each which is stlll a lot

I feel like perhaps Cult or Gaia. Because a human player knows how to abuse the terraforming advantages better. CyCon perhaps too. The AI is very swingy, it doesn't know to rebuild Punishment Spheres unfortunately.

Drones I put just under University for stock factions. If only because you can get blown out early like Believers. Once into the midgame they always did fine. Believers were kind of like this too honestly. Fanatic bonus is amazing if you can just stay even on tech.

How about INTEREST, -10 for Believers? Instead of -ECON. To represent tithing, a tenth of your income that goes to the church. Well its worse than that it's a tenth of your wealth lol. Negative econ believers might be interesting. More ascetic would probably mean Free Market aversion rather than knowledge.

Tithing goes to the church, though, so why would the faction's energy reserves be reduced if it's run as a theocracy? It's hard to peg Miriam down (well we can rule out Eastern Orthodox LOL) but she's probably meant to be some kind of 1990s American dominionist and the Lord's Believers are maybe organized under presbyterian lines? There has to be some kind of hierarchy there to enforce her orthodoxy but I don't see her appointing archbishops/bishops/cardinals.

[Nexii]

Tithing goes to the church, though, so why would the faction's energy reserves be reduced if it's run as a theocracy? It's hard to peg Miriam down (well we can rule out Eastern Orthodox LOL) but she's probably meant to be some kind of 1990s American dominionist and the Lord's Believers are maybe organized under presbyterian lines? There has to be some kind of hierarchy there to enforce her orthodoxy but I don't see her appointing archbishops/bishops/cardinals.

Yea considering she calls herself Sister and not some higher rank, it implies a flatter power structure. More egalitarian. Hence I think growth or effic are quite fitting benefits.

Edit: Also I ended up swapping University's talents with PKs tech share. Talents probably better represent happiness, of all factions PKs seem the one that would value that the most. The happiness in turn allows more citizenry to be 'elite', but thats an effect not the cause.