Reimagined Original Factions

[Nexii]

Probably, yes. I think what you said about raising the basic tools priority evened out the usefulness of various priorities. Conquer+Discover was really bad when it had no priority to get terraformers. From there factions specialize but they can still trade.

Trying out a new version of Pirates where they get Cruisers from the start. They seem to be the one remaining faction that struggles. I think because -1 EFFIC is quite a steep penalty. I did want to represent all social penalties. And it seems to fit them the best, even more than PKs.

Free Amphibious Pods and Marine Detachment usually made little difference, like pretty much every 'free facility/ability halfway into the game' bonus.

[bvanevery]

Free Marine Detachment is an annoying AI faction capability, when you are the human player and have advanced weaponry.  Pirates can steal your ship design without the use of a probe team.  And they will.  Sometimes I've had to decide, not to send advanced units against them.

[Nexii]

Yea it's not bad. I wish there was a way to give abilities from the start of the game. Having to get the tech makes some just way too late. I suppose for Pirates it's not overly deep in the tree but still.

[Geo]

Yea it's not bad. I wish there was a way to give abilities from the start of the game. Having to get the tech makes some just way too late. I suppose for Pirates it's not overly deep in the tree but still.

Eh, wouldn't having no tech prerequisite do the trick? Simply putting 'NONE' on the tech label in the Alpha(x) file?

[Nexii]

Yea but that would give it to all factions. And it wouldn't be 'free' like FREEABIL, it would require an ability slot.

I should have specified, giving an ability to just one faction from the start of the game isn't possible. Because FREEABIL only gives it when you discover that tech, not if you start the game with it.

[bvanevery]

In my mod, Adaptive Doctrine is merely a Tier 2 tech.  It gives Amphibious Pods and Marine Detachment.  Tier 2 techs are readily traded between factions because none of my Secret Projects start until Tier 3.

[vonbach]

Honestly out of all the factions i always thought the Believers should have the growth bonuses not the Peacekeepers.
Be fruitful and multiply after all.
The Peacekeepers should be more of a some +probe and talent bonuses I think, and the council votes.

[Nexii]

Yea I agree actually, sort of doubling down on Fundamentalism bonuses/penalties. Gaia and Cult sort of work like this.

Probe sort of fits for PKs, but I don't see them spying too much on other factions. The auto techshare perhaps is a little more fitting for PKs. They can use the council to compel factions to share knowledge that isn't considered top-secret any longer. More by diplomacy than by espionage (PROBE).

The other issue with PKs is that they prefer Democracy, which doesn't give growth. I suppose they could take prosperity to boom...but still.

The simplest thing to do would be to give PKs support instead of growth. But PKs aren't militaristic so that's a bit odd too.

Believers would have to lose support, having 2 to both would be too much. I'll think about it for sure.

Edit: There, I gave Believers +2 GROWTH. They lost -2 SUPPORT
PKs gained +1 SUPPORT (I think it actually makes sense, they get funding from other factions like the U.N.)
PKs penalty to POLICE reduced to -1, but also removed the free drone control. They get TECHSHARE to compensate since +2 GROWTH I feel is a little better than +1 SUPPORT. Should be reasonably balanced, I'll have to test.

The only issue is that it might make Believers and Drones kind of similar. But there is a big difference between +1 GROWTH and +2 GROWTH.

I kind of like Talents on Zak because they do represent the elite researchers. PKs are kind of second in line for me. Though Zak still can't boom with Fundamentalism aversion and -1 GROWTH in my set. The Talents are kind of a nice benefit rather than one for booming. Kind of mirrors Hive, yea they get extra drones but with their POLICE being so good it's not as big of a deal.

[Nexii]

Loosened up the agendas for Drones and CyCon back to their originals.

PKs I increased their rush costs. They were quite strong, 2x votes is an underrated bonus.

Believers might need a little something. Seems that +4 GROWTH doesn't quite offset -4 RESEARCH, lol. But I have to run more games to see.

[vonbach]

Yea I agree actually, sort of doubling down on Fundamentalism bonuses/penalties. Gaia and Cult sort of work like this.

Probe sort of fits for PKs, but I don't see them spying too much on other factions. The auto techshare perhaps is a little more fitting for PKs. They can use the council to compel factions to share knowledge that isn't considered top-secret any longer. More by diplomacy than by espionage (PROBE).

The other issue with PKs is that they prefer Democracy, which doesn't give growth. I suppose they could take prosperity to boom...but still.

The simplest thing to do would be to give PKs support instead of growth. But PKs aren't militaristic so that's a bit odd too.

Believers would have to lose support, having 2 to both would be too much. I'll think about it for sure.

Edit: There, I gave Believers +2 GROWTH. They lost -2 SUPPORT
PKs gained +1 SUPPORT (I think it actually makes sense, they get funding from other factions like the U.N.)
PKs penalty to POLICE reduced to -1, but also removed the free drone control. They get TECHSHARE to compensate since +2 GROWTH I feel is a little better than +1 SUPPORT. Should be reasonably balanced, I'll have to test.

The only issue is that it might make Believers and Drones kind of similar. But there is a big difference between +1 GROWTH and +2 GROWTH.

I kind of like Talents on Zak because they do represent the elite researchers. PKs are kind of second in line for me. Though Zak still can't boom with Fundamentalism aversion and -1 GROWTH in my set. The Talents are kind of a nice benefit rather than one for booming. Kind of mirrors Hive, yea they get extra drones but with their POLICE being so good it's not as big of a deal.

Yeah I have no problem with the Believers losing support for growth it fits them far better. If anyone should be the growth  centric faction it should be them. I don't think they should get  research penalties though, religious doesn't mean stupid. Economic or efficiency penalties might be better.
I never mess with the Drones that much I just love the +2 industry. It's so much fun to play.
As  far as the Peacekeepers go I like the idea of a generalist faction decent at research, probe and war with its real weakness is  not being able to take Police State.

[Nexii]

Well I never saw the Believers as stupid really. Miriam's late game quotes are some of the least crazy. I see Believers more as having an aversion to technological change, a cautiousness.

I did tone down the Drones, +2 was quite strong. Though I feel like 25% reduced hurry is pretty close and maybe a bit more interesting. You can save up credits in FM and swap to Planned to rush a bunch of facilities. Overall I'd say their power level only got increased a little bit...they were pretty close to stock University which was my baseline. That being said in my SE/fac set Drones are the only ones that can hit +5 IND late game. The swap rushes get strong.

Upgraded Believers from Rec Commons to Paradise Garden. This lets AI bases boom for a short time, at least until her empire is large. Seems 'about right'. For a human player they aren't much better, since bases get drones from size 2+. But then again a human player is smarter and will use Creches or Prosperity SE more. So not too worried.

PKs I dare say have won the most sim games I've seen the AI play. It's kind of subtle, but usually they get Governor through 2x votes and being less hated as pacifist. The extra energy and being able to vote in global trade pact often just lets them run away from conquer factions in tech. Creches are super good, even with taking away their social +2 GROWTH. It's kind of weird, but I think it's just that they manage to stay in Demo/FM/Knowledge a lot more than other factions. If they get Empath Guild and Clinical Immortality then they can win right there even if they're behind on the Transcend race.

These factions are quite balanced for AI vs AI. Some of the results kind of surprised me. I always expect CyCon to do better. Strong research, effic, and no drone worries. They often get dismantled by probe attacks, the AI doesn't know to rebuild spheres. Even for a human player they're expensive. University is often way up on tech but always precariously small and weak at the same time.

[vonbach]

Well I never saw the Believers as stupid really. Miriam's late game quotes are some of the least crazy. I see Believers more as having an aversion to technological change, a cautiousness.

Honestly she seems like the smartest out of the bunch at times. I like the idea of either mild research penalties (-1) or better yet effic or economy penalties.
But +2 growth and I was going to give her -2 population on top of that is quite strong.
Planet penalties might work because she seems like the least likely to accept an intelligent planetary fungal network aside from the Spartans.

[bvanevery]

There's no lore about Miriam being anti-Planet.  The only instance of it, is the 1 line in her faction description file.  That's why I removed it from my mod.  They didn't do any narrative support at all for her being anti-Planet.

Obviously Morgan is the anti-Planet faction.  For economic not spiritual reasons.

I think the myth of Christians being anti-environment is harmful and should not be promoted by games.

[Nexii]

+2 growth offsets quite a bit of the research pain. If you have more population it cancels out. I had Fundamentalism at +2 growth, +1 morale, -1 research and it was just too good. Research I don't rate quite as strong as stuff like effic or growth, since it only affects about 50% of your energy production. Effic affects all of it and growth affects all your nutrients.

-2 research matters most early. I'm not as big a fan of the no research for 10 turns mechanic. It's essentially -100% labs...just brutal.

I gave Morgan and Drones the negative PLANET penalties. Morgan's more capitalist but the Drones would be as bad imo. Just look at the names of their cities, they're basically all huge factories.

[vonbach]

There's no lore about Miriam being anti-Planet.  The only instance of it, is the 1 line in her faction description file.  That's why I removed it from my mod.  They didn't do any narrative support at all for her being anti-Planet.

Obviously Morgan is the anti-Planet faction.  For economic not spiritual reasons.

I think the myth of Christians being anti-environment is harmful and should not be promoted by games.

True the bible actually is environmentalist in many ways. Were supposed to be stewards  of the earth.
The problem is the planet they are on is alive.

-2 research matters most early.

Honestly -2 research isn't that much of an early penalty if you explore. Other factions will cheerfully give you tech for money.
Playing as the Drones you  barely notice honestly the - research.