Thinker mod attempt 7

[bvanevery]

Details March Thinker mod development version

March Thinker mod development version

Induktio released a new development version of Thinker mod in March.  I have been testing it in combination with my own SMACX AI Growth mod.  His AI abuses Condensers, Supply Crawlers, and Boreholes to the hilt.  I've been working on various cost increases and technology delays to curb this abuse in the game.

I think I can only curb it, not end it.  Some recent thread posts talked about increasing the AI's ability to spend energy credits.  So far it's been an untapped resource, but if the AI spends all those credits, it may just stomp human players, without much recourse.  At least, that would be true of the default cost_factor game on Transcend.  The AI is gaining intelligence, while also keeping the original game buffs that compensated for lack of intelligence.  And finally, it does not pay any significant eco-damage costs.  That's pretty much a triple play.  If continued, it indicates a development sensibility that I can't hope to keep up with or balance.

Some developers and some players think the AI's ability to stomp stuff, is neat and the most important thing.    I can't agree.  I want players to be able to enjoy the game, not just be stomped.  Sure, they can fiddle with settings until they're not stomped so hard.  But "you can just fix it yourself" is a power gamer's sensibility, privileging and enforcing the stomping as the default mode of existence.  The stomping game becomes the standard, the testbed, the basic social contract.  The one that most players actually experience and actually play.  When you have a set of defaults, you get a gaming culture that revolves around those defaults.

Things I am testing this time:

• using stock binary faction placement, not Thinker mod's new version
• Inherent base defense lowered to +25%, same as the stock game.
• Perimeter Defense available at tech Tier 3, not the beginning of the game.
• Skunkworks available with C3 Applied Physics.
• 2 unit abilities available with C4 Organic Superlubricant.
• Weather Paradigm 1.33X cost, increased to 400 minerals.
• Soil Enricher 0.75X cost.  I've always hated waiting for those to complete.
• Advanced Ecological Engineering is now a Build 5 tech.
  
• Condenser 2X cost and moved to Advanced Ecological Engineering.
• Raise/Lower Terrain 2X cost.
• Industrial Automation is now a Build 6 tech.  It gives Supply Crawlers and Thermal Boreholes.
  
• Supply Crawler on infantry chassis: 80 minerals for Fission reactor, 50 minerals for Fusion reactor.
• Thermal Borehole 2X cost.
• Bio-Engineering is now a Build 6 tech.  It gives Genejack Factories.

In short, this is a fairly serious retooling of the Build portion of the tree.  Minerals won't become plentiful until late midgame at least.

I'm not calling this a "military" test anymore.  The totality of the circumstances, has not yet led me to big military deployments.  I find I'm just playing the game.  I quit when I run into enough things that need to change, to make it playable in my view.

[dino]

If AI will be good enough, to stomp you mercilessly thanks to cheat bonuses, the solution is to lower difficulty to take these cheat bonuses away, not whatever you are doing.
I'm personally looking forward to playing on Thinker, I hate only one free drone control on Transcend for example.

Expensive crawlers hurt human player more than AI, I personally use 5 row crawlers, so I am not tempted to micro an army of crawlers in a forest, since it's not worth it at that cost.
But default 3 rows would definitely benefit me more than ai.

[bvanevery]

If AI will be good enough, to stomp you mercilessly thanks to cheat bonuses, the solution is to lower difficulty to take these cheat bonuses away, not whatever you are doing.

The solution in my opinion is to ship a thiker.ini that has default cost_factor appropriate for the AI's actual level of ability.  Not the level of buff and reward that's given to the stock AI.   Shipping it in thinker.ini is culturally important, as it sets the standard of how the majority of people will play it.

Even if cost_factor is adjusted, it's still important to consider whether some aspects of the game are basically underpriced, way too good of a bargain, and way too easy to exploit.  I've made extensive commentary about why Condensers and Boreholes are underpriced.  This time I'm testing a less drastic price increase, 2X rather than 3X.  But it might be insufficient / ineffective.

I'm personally looking forward to playing on Thinker, I hate only one free drone control on Transcend for example.

I've been playing on Transcend for 20 years.  I'm quite used to rules such as one free drone, and I don't want them nerfed.

Expensive crawlers hurt human player more than AI,

I don't agree yet.  Expensive crawlers do not hurt the "finish Secret Projects" play style.  They do hurt the "keep lotsa crawlers in the field" play style.  The huge cost reduction of Fusion Power is a problem.  To get a reasonable cost with Fusion Power, the Fission Power version has to be prohibitively expensive.

I just realized that B4 Industrial Automation, when I give Thermal Boreholes, is actually a Tier 4 tech.  I'm giving that out before Condensers at B5 Advanced Ecological Engineering.  I need to change the times at which players get Skunkworks, soil enrichers, supply crawlers, Condensers, and Thermal Boreholes.  My progressions are not currently reasonable.

EDIT: I decided to put Industrial Automation and Bio-Engineering much later in the tech tree.  Cheap minerals aren't going to be available until late midgame.

[bvanevery]

Details the greedy [progeny of unmarried parents]

the greedy [progeny of unmarried parents]

Huge map, 30%..50% land mass with my large continents and large oceans, average settings.  Transcend difficulty, default Thinker mod cost_factor.  Thinker mod's faction placement algorithm disabled by setting faction_placement=0, as it has been unfair in every test game I've played. Random factions.  I draw Morgan, whose main ability is to make money.  The Gaians, Hive, Pirates, Peacekeepers, Data Angels, and University are in the game.  The Peacekeepers are really scary under Thinker mod because they start with +2 GROWTH, making it very easy for them to pop boom.  The game could be dominated by either them or the Pirates, and it would be wise to get them to fight.

Details blocked by fungus

blocked by fungus

I have a strong suspicion that Thinker mod has changed the frequency of fungus to make it much more common.  I have had fungus constricting my start in many of my test games, despite having Average native life form settings.  I don't usually see these kinds of starts when using the stock binary.

On the positive side, I have 3 squares of Rainy land.  Frankly I didn't get any when using Thinker mod's faction placement algorithm.  It was a quite noticeable misfeature.  I didn't rigorously check whether the AI factions suffered the same problem or not.

[bvanevery]

Details financially Ruined

financially Ruined

It's not as bad as it looked.  Perhaps this land isn't mired in fungus after all.  I am feeling better about having retained my default Explore, Build focus though.  I'm going to need Trance ability.

Details topology change

topology change

MY 2127.  Someone just triggered an earthquake and connected a major western land mass to mine.  My cities are no longer adjacent by water.  I wonder if I now control an isthmus?  I switch my Colony Pod productions to Scouts to see what's going on.  I have 2 Colony Pods seeking to establish cities to the east of the fungal barrier.  I'm not yet seeking to settle the Ruins directly as I want to make a larger land claim around it before someone else does.

[bvanevery]

Details back to the help desk peon!

back to the help desk peon!

MY 2129.  I suppose I could have a worse neighbor.  I will need to get some defensive probe teams together though.

MY 2132.  I learn Doctrine: Flexibility.  I seek trade with the Obstinate Data Angels.  They sell me Monopole Magnets for 100 credits and sign off.  I have removed the fungal patch separating my cities.  I could use Fungicidal Formers real soon now.

MY 2136.  The Data Angels have calmed down and are Noncommittal.  They sign a Treaty but will not trade or sell techs.

MY 2146.  I don't know what changed their mind, but the Data Angels sign a Pact with me.  I have plenty of cash and ask to trade tech.  They simply give me E2 Centauri Empathy, figuring I'm poor.  Now that I have Trance capability I change my research focus to Build only.  I have settled the Ruins and want to make my capitol there.  My coastal cities are making Transports.  My existing capitol is making Colony Pods because it regularly exceeds a population it can be happy with.

Details bad Data Angels colony spreading

bad Data Angels colony spreading

I'm a bit mystified as to why the Data Angels have spread so badly compared to myself.  I have 7 cities to their 4 and will soon have 9.  This despite a large amount of fungus in my way.  Their starting land was dry but they had 3 nutrient specials which should make up for that.  North of them is Rainy land and they simply haven't utilized it.  They have 2 Colony Pods active and 1 in production.  Somehow they've figured out how to make Scout Rovers.  Prototypes are very expensive in my mod, the cheapest being 60 minerals, and I wonder if that could be holding up some of the AI factions.  None of their techs gave them a predefined prototype.

[bvanevery]

MY 2150.  The Data Angels make contact with the Pirates.  I obtain their commlink frequency.  Roze then cuts me off before I can beg her for tech.

The Pirates sell me the Gaian's commlink frequency and B2 Synthetic Fossil Fuels.  Now I can make Fungicidal Formers and go Capitalist.  They do not sign a Treaty, they are Quarrelsome and sign off.

Details the Gaian giveaway

the Gaian giveaway

Ok the Thinker Mod AI is stupid about techs for Secret Projects.  I don't usually see this problem in the stock binary, and I've seen it lots of times in these Thinker mod test games.  Now, it is possible that when I play Thinker mod, the game always thinks I'm doing badly and just throws me a bone.  Another possibility is since I've raised the cost of the Weather Paradigm to 400, the Gaians just don't think it's finishable.  That's still a huge mistake, since it's the enabler of early Condensers and Boreholes.  Since I'm a Builder faction I did expect to be in competition for the Weather Paradigm, but now I will become the likely recipient.  No one has started any Secret Projects yet, and it will now get my undivided attention.

[bvanevery]

Details Pirate government

Pirate government

MY 2151.  Captain Svensgaard calls an election.  I can actually decide it.  I wonder why Lal is not seeking to bribe me?  Maybe he's poor as dirt.

On what basis do I make my decision?  Judging by the number of votes per faction, Yang got stillborn same as Roze did.  Deidre, Zhakarov, and Lal have only done as well as I have, which frankly is shocking, given the kind of aggressive colony spread I've seen in Thinker mod before.  Nevertheless I've seen as many as half of the factions runted in my various test games, with no natural barriers to explain it.  Thinker mod is capable of spreading very well or very poorly and it's not clear to me why.

Anyways, Svesngaard is clearly the runaway power faction.  Probably best to vote against him for now.  Lal becomes Governor.  I will end up being Democratic Capitalist Wealth and likely at peace with both of them.

I contact Yang first since he is weakest.  We trade techs.  It gains me Information Networks, which will allow me to make probe teams.  Even though the Data Angels are allies it's still a good idea to make defensive probe teams, because they like to steal even from their allies.  That can't be a high priority though, just something for down the line.  Yang otherwise is difficult to work with and won't sign a Treaty.

I contact Lal because he's less likely to have techs.  He threatens me and I tell him to stuff it.  He declares war and I regret having elected him, but how could I know?  He has a Passive personality so his actions are weird.

Let's try talking to Deirdre before I go Capitalist.  They're ignoring my comm frequency.

Let's see if Svensgaard is more interested in a Treaty now.  Nope, he's ignoring my comm frequency.

Let's see if Roze gained any maps.  Well she won't talk to me either!  I'm a pariah.

Zhakarov is Obstinate.  He doesn't trade and won't sign a Treaty.  So that's it then.  1 Pact, 4 Truces, and 1 Vendetta.  I think it's a conspiracy, possibly against the guy with the +2 ECONOMY and +1 COMMERCE.

I fish an Artifact out of the water.  That will help with getting the Weather Paradigm done.  I don't have enough credits to go Capitalist, so I don't.

[bvanevery]

Details the Pirate sea

the Pirate sea

MY 2152.  I switch to Capitalist.  I trade techs and maps with Svensgaard and sign a Treaty, boosting my Commerce income.  He's my immediate neighbor.  I couldn't see him at all before, due to a fungal tower barrier.

I talk to Roze but she hasn't obtained any new map info.  I've caught up with her on tech.

[bvanevery]

Details quiet races

quiet races

MY 2153.  Svensgaard begins the Weather Paradigm, and I haven't yet.  We enter sunspots.  Do you ever get the feeling that the game is cutting you off,  just when you were starting to do well?  Like if I got any more Truces converted to Treaties, I'd be making even more money.  So the game says nah, screw you.  Well I can take it out on my drones, although I almost never do.

I get 100 credits from a pod.  With the proceeds, I rush a Recreation Commons at the Ruins and queue up the Weather Paradigm.  I rush an inland Command Center so I can make Trance Scouts and have better defense against mindworm marauders.

[bvanevery]

MY 2162.  I just realized that for unknown reasons, I did not change the cost of the Weather Paradigm in this game's alphax.txt.  I know I edited it, so now I wonder whether I simply didn't save it, or whether I edited the wrong file.  I check all my changes with WinMerge and everything looks ok.  I save the game and start a new one with the corrected alphax.txt.  The cost of the Weather Paradigm is now as intended.

This means earlier, when the Gaians sold me B3 Ecological Engineering, the Weather Paradigm only cost 300.  That's the base cost of all Secret Projects in my mod.  When playing my mod with the stock binary, the AI never ever just gives Secret Projects away.  Now, maybe the game thinks I suck at Thinker mod and cuts me a break.  Or maybe the trading AI has gotten messed up.

MY 2168.  Sunspots have ended.  I pick up a 2nd Artifact in the water.  Yang won't speak to me.  Zhakarov won't sign a Treaty.  Lal still wants war.  Roze gives me Industrial Base, which makes Recycling Tanks and Democratic available.  I start on the former but not the latter, as I don't have Recreation Commons everywhere yet.

MY 2169.  The Pirates try to extort me for 50 credits.  I tell them to shove it and they sink that 2nd Artifact I pulled out of the water.  This game just turned into an economic military test.  I am still going to want the Merchant Exchange, so I switch my focus to Build, Conquer.  I pick up a 3rd Artifact in the water but it is far from home.  I rush a Recycling Tank at my one base with a Command Center as I need to get a Synthmetal prototype completed.

MY 2170.  While trying to get a Foil probe team to one of Svensgaard's bases, I encounter a ship and subvert it.

MY 2171.  I left that ship as a blocking picket, trying to give my Foil probe team room to get to the Pirate base.  Another ship attacks my picket and my ship survives.  Next turn I expect infiltration.  I pick up a 4th Artifact in the water but need to get it home.

MY 2172.  My picket dies, but I infiltrate the Pirates.  They have C3 Applied Physics and E3 Ethical Calculus.  Deirdre threatens me and I tell her to stuff herself.  She declares war.  Yang won't talk.

Surprisingly, Zhakarov finally signs a Treaty even though he's Ambivalent.  I trade for his Applied Physics, as I've only got 1 Pirate base I can easily steal from.  I also gain Field Modulation, which gives the somewhat useless Cloaking Device.  It might be of more use against a land enemy to take down Sensor Arrays behind enemy cities, due to ignoring zones of control.  However the invisibility aspect might be useless, as the AI may just cheat and look at everything.
 
Roze offers to sell me Centauri Genetics, but I decline as I'm trying to finish the Weather Paradigm.

[vonbach]

I like the change to the Weather Paradrim. Out of all the early wonders I think that one is the most Overpowered.

[bvanevery]

Once upon a time Mart made a huge big deal about the Weather Paradigm and the Empath Guild.  He jacked up their costs to some truly absurd values, and we have an old thread arguing about that.  He was seeing both projects through the lens of multiplayer bias, in particular that it was a really big deal in multiplayer to gain infiltration with everybody.  I eventually came to understand the impact of the Empath Guild on diplomatic victory, particularly as the populations of my AI factions got bigger from the changes I made to AI Growth mod.  So the Empath Guild did get bumped to 400 and put way later in the tech tree a long time ago.  It's an Explore 6 tech, that's late midgame.

The Weather Paradigm, I raised to 300 and moved to Tier 3, same as all other early Secret Projects.  I thought that was enough.  I never really saw the problem until experiencing Thinker mod's exploit of Condensers and Boreholes.  It's not a play style that I myself am interested in.  But in multiplayer, apparently there are people who think that's standard drill.  Induktio just automates it, bringing that play sensibility to its logical conclusion.  So now the Weather Paradigm is 400 and we'll see if that's enough.  I'm willing to make it higher if it's really the gold rush of the game.

[bvanevery]

MY 2175.  I gain a Gun Jet from a sea pod.  It could be useful for escorting Foil probe teams to target cities.

MY 2176.  2 Artifacts have arrived on my road network, but they still have to walk the road to get to the Ruins, where I'm building the Weather Paradigm.  Svensgaard has started shelling roads around one of my northern cities.

MY 2177.  2 Pirate probe teams try to get to my easternmost city.  However they came over some fungus and stopped 1 square short of my city, enabling me to easily kill them.

MY 2179.  I rush the Weather Paradigm with 1 Artifact and 712 cash.  I have 3 Artifacts in my home territory.  I begin the Planetary Transit System in another city.  I complete a Synthmetal prototype and begin working on a Laser artillery prototype.

Details no early Boreholes for AI

no early Boreholes for AI

MY 2180.  The Weather Paradigm is mine.  This is the 1st test game where I've even had a chance to gain it.  Granted, it's also the 1st time I've played with a Build focus, as would be natural to the faction I drew.  The cost of 400 makes the opportunity window wide enough for a human player to get it, instead of being a certainty for the AI, and in particular for the Pirates.  I think they've gotten it most of the games.

Now granted, there is a problem with passing judgment on this.  Deirdre sold me B3 Ecological Engineering because she was stupid.  That didn't have to happen.  But I think I could have stolen this tech by now from Svensgaard.  I'm going to try to steal the tech for the Merchant Exchange in a few turns, so that would prove whether enough tech can be stolen at close quarters.  The real difficulty is when your enemy is very far away from you.

I see that the Pirates will complete the Merchant Exchange in 6 turns, and the Planetary Transit System in 10 turns.  I may not get either, and it's not possible to get both.  I stop working on the Planetary Transit System because if I need to switch to the Merchant Exchange, it's in the wrong city.  I want it on the Ruins.

I ask to trade tech with Roze and she gives me Centauri Genetics.  I am considered Feeble.

[bvanevery]

Details favorable disease

favorable disease

MY 2181.  A Prometheus Virus breakout at Privateer Quay causes the Planetary Transit System finish time to become 15 turns.  I think the game just gave me a gift.  It's hard to see that as accidental when the Pirates have 30 cities.  30 cities.  Maybe I need to give the Pirate faction a social engineering penalty, because they have such an easy time on water.

They're still on target to complete the Merchant Exchange in 5 turns and that city is too far into enemy territory to do anything about it.  A pity because it's also completely empty.

MY 2182.  I research Industrial Economics on my own.  I switch to the Merchant Exchange.  However I don't think I can even walk my 3rd Artifact over there soon enough.

MY 2185.  The Pirates are nearing a major breakthrough on the Merchant Exchange.  My 3rd Artifact hasn't arrived.  Even if it did, I don't believe I have enough.  For reasons unclear to me, the Pirates offer a Truce.  I accept.  If nothing else, it may give me time to raise land and bottle up the Pirates somehow.

Oh, now I get it.  My Foil probe team was about to steal a tech from them.  I still think the Truce is good for me. 

MY 2186.  The Pirates complete the Merchant Exchange.  Of course my 3rd Artifact is 1 square away from arriving at its destination, and of course I pop a pod for 150 credits.  I'm 1 turn late.

MY 2188.  I rush the Planetary Transit System with 2 Artifacts and cash.