Pravin Lal's Runner-up Science Fair Runoff

[roninscg]

three of us, we can play

[Mart]

For me it's ok to play 3 of us.

[Horseshoe_Hermit]

I never play three player games.  Of anything.

Warned this was my rule:

[...]

I could play Morganites. 7 factions.
I can't go for less than 4 players but I can pray for 5.

Somebody's gotta wander over to this site.  I hope we can all maintain our excitement.

[Kirov]

Hello guys, is this the game that's still open to newcomers? I'm happy to join. I agree to everything, although I do have some balancing suggestions if anyone cares to hear (I've played a few MP games already). So, may I play with you, lads?

[Horseshoe_Hermit]

Yes please, join in!  We need to know your faction, it must be a Human faction.  Also, if you choose any of Gaians, Cyborgs, Hive, or Peacekeepers, the three computer players will be the remainder of those four, while if you choose another faction, the computer players will be Aki, Yang, and Lal.

If you have any insight into the rule #2 from the forum etiquette, it would be invaluable.  Let us know any other balance concerns you have.

[Kirov]

Yes please, join in!  We need to know your faction, it must be a Human faction.  Also, if you choose any of Gaians, Cyborgs, Hive, or Peacekeepers, the three computer players will be the remainder of those four, while if you choose another faction, the computer players will be Aki, Yang, and Lal.

If you have any insight into the rule #2 from the forum etiquette, it would be invaluable.  Let us know any other balance concerns you have.

Thank you. I'll go with the Peacekeepers, then. You guys look like you could use a benevolent yet firm policeman.

As for the rules, there used to be plenty of tricks to get some bonuses you weren't supposed to. I'm a little bit foggy on the details, my SMAC is somewhat rusty (I actually had to fire up SMAC in order to browse factions to choose one from). But the rule of thumb is, if you don't mess with production queues etc. on in what might be considered a tricky way, you're already clear and don't have to worry about anything.

One notable exception was inserting stockpile energy after units, as the game used to automatically give you money (as if you were stockpiling energy) when you finished facilities. But I thought Yitzi patches dealt with that? So we don't have to insert stockpile anymore?

You can go ahead and create the game, please note that I'm away for the weekend though, running a marathon in the countryside. Be back with you Sunday-Monday.

About the balance concerns: we don't have to remove the Empath Guild, but if we don't, be warned that I'm likely to beeline to it. It's one of the most powerful tools anyone can ask for, a free infiltration to everyone (people can go to great lengths to deny infiltration as it's hilariously OP). The EG is next to useless in single player, but don't be mislead by that. Usually, when I'm in since the beginning of the game creation thread, I insist that the EG be removed. Now I say it's your call.

But there's one worse offender in terms of game-breaking, and it's overall air combat. Time and again, my games followed the narrative of "it was super fun to play and then air power came". Just in my most recent game, I had a most splendid war with neighbouring Cyborgs (which roninscg is going to fill in). With limited resources, I had to very carefully take advantage of every detail of the terrain and a well-placed sensor array could be a make-it-or-break-it decision. The advent of air power turned it all into a simple comparison of mineral output, and when the belligerents are on par, you end up with a long and boring slugfest. And don't even get me started on the choppers... The "chop & drop" strategy (clean bases with choppers and hop parachuters into them) is the single best winning strategy in this game.

There are many ways to deal with it, from banning CBA (Cloudbase Academy) to nerfing choppers to cutting air unit movements (my favourite idea is to halve it). But the players must be in agreement here and must know what they're doing. Again, it's your call and if you feel the most comfortable with the basic set of rules, the SMAC as it was given to us, I fully understand that and have no problems with it.

So whatever it is, I'm good to go.

[Mart]

I think prohibition of using copters to attack bases is a good rule and easy to remember.
And no tweaking with alphax.txt is a plus.


CBA is somewhat a problem. If we just start a game, it would be there and AI would/could attempt to build it at some point. So it would stay in the game, but with copters not being able to attack bases it would be less destructive to game balance.

[Horseshoe_Hermit]

Air superiority winning the day makes sense to me, but, from looking at various help topics formed throughout the years on the subject of Air weapons in this game, it looks like maybe Choppers are undercosted?  Or giving them cargo space might be OP.  I don't know of any personnel carrier that could also mount state-of-the-art weapons and their power sources, do you?  (Of course, I don't know of any Copter laser batteries either.)
I could see going in and editing the unit data for Choppers, maybe removing the x1/4 cost subsidy, definitely disallowing the cargo space.

Avoiding fiddling with the build queue should be easy.  Don't delete from the front of the queue, don't change the build on any turn after you've hurried.


---
Empath Guild upsets me just because it does two things for the price of one.  I don't have experience with what it can do to a multiplayer game.  But, good luck beelining it, we're on blind research, and we will all see it coming 

When it comes to CBA, and its counterparts, I wish that an invasive modding sdk was better at hand.  I'm not going to learn smac modding in time for Monday, unfortunately.  I mean, if Cloudbase Academy was just a unique-per-faction project, it wouldn't be the devastating minerals sweep it now is.  Or edit any of five other things I can think of, but don't know how to code just now.

I'd agree to edit the Cloudbase Academy straight out of the game.  Empath Guild. . . What file do I touch to remove those extra votes?

[roninscg]

As for me i don't see problem with chopters,(There is certainly a way to defend yourself from them) there are many solutions for this problem, so I'll agree with you whatever you folks decide.

CBA and EG, how you decide 

if I have any objections and suggestions, I will involve in the discussion.

[Mart]

...

I'd agree to edit the Cloudbase Academy straight out of the game.  Empath Guild. . . What file do I touch to remove those extra votes?

For removing CBA from the game, it would be enough if the project is set to destroyed in scenario editor.
Later I will write how to do it, so the person starting the game can do it without seeing the map. Some trust to the person starting the game is in order, from me it is ok, I was doing similar things in the past and I know that it is possible in practice.
So I will write you, Horseshoe_Hermit, how to do it.

As for removing extra votes from Empath Guild, i am afraid it is hardcoded to the slot of SP. We cannot do anything about it. And I do not recall Yitzi patch did something with it.

[Mart]

And just a note, modifying alphax.txt is usually a bigger problem in multiplayer games.
We all would need to use the same modified alphax.txt, which is possible, but prone to making mistakes by players and we/some of us could end up using different alphax.txt.

[Horseshoe_Hermit]

...

I'd agree to edit the Cloudbase Academy straight out of the game.  Empath Guild. . . What file do I touch to remove those extra votes?

For removing CBA from the game, it would be enough if the project is set to destroyed in scenario editor.
Later I will write how to do it, so the person starting the game can do it without seeing the map. Some trust to the person starting the game is in order, from me it is ok, I was doing similar things in the past and I know that it is possible in practice.
So I will write you, Horseshoe_Hermit, how to do it.

Great.

alphax.txt should be edited just on line 103.  Change that 1 to a 0.  There's no room for extra spaces.

Guess we'll all be waiting for that Empath Guild beeline.  Morgan is an incurable pacifist, but someone will have to make war on the democrats every autumn to keep diplo victory out of their hands, I guess.   

(Why do Lal's people get double votes?  Is a person there twice the person of other backgrounds?  lol? That doesn't sound like Human rights... >_>)

[roninscg]

Lal is UN man (global police man) 
because of that get double votes .

[Mart]

The way to eliminate CBA, that I know, has a drawback - it is that it must be done by the first playing human player and it would need to be in the first turn.
If playing with flexible starting locations, problem is, that this first player may decide to delay establishing a base since there is another better spot for hq base...
So, if restarting map generation in such case, and the first base is made:


- after making the first base, it is enough, it is crucial not to forward the game more.
- zoom in max, so the smallest part of the map is visible. Also cover with something the small right lower corner whole planet map, so its shape is not known.
- turn in scenario editor "ctrl+k"
- entr the base, there is active "edit base" button.
- scroll down facilities to SP part and find Cloudbase Academy. click it.
- a dialog window appears with 3 buttons: "set to unbuilt", "set to destroyed" , "Morgan Industries..." Set it to destroyed.
- after closing dialog, the list should show it is destroyed.
- close base window. and turn off scenario editor "ctrl+K"
- It is good to check on F5 screen if it lists CBA as "Aliens NONE" in red color
- save the game to scenario folder, but when giving file extension give it .sc extension, so it is visible to the game later as scenario. It is additional trick to get interludes and monument screens when playing multiplayer.




And further starting th mp game would be as usual.
- MULTIPLAYER > Hotseat/pbme > multplayer scenario
- add all human factions.
- and so on: set password, play your first turn further.
- save on prompt for second player and send/attach to forum .sav

[Horseshoe_Hermit]

That's a bad drawback.  Choosing that device means we reroll until I have a settle-in-place start... which gives me a statistical advantage on the rest of you.

Why does it not work after turn 1?  Can't open the editor after it's a .sc file?  That would make sense if it were a different file type but it's literally a text trick from what you told me.

Ugh.  Balance problems.  🤒  Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, instead of feeling excited to start.  But that's all preparations complete now, yes?