Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[bvanevery]

It's like an equivalent of 50% research speed up if you can channel them there.

It's almost at the end of the tech tree, who the F cares about research anymore?

Did you build it? If yes, did you see cash flow increase?

No, of course not.  A little bit of cash can't save me now.  The Cloning Vats might.  Or might not.

[bvanevery]

Well, isn't it an argument for SP cost increase? With original one it would finish it in 3-4.

The reason Domai can do any of this at all, is you made these SPs so back breakingly expensive for a human player on Transcend, who doesn't have any buffs, that you severely favor the AI factions with their inherent INDUSTRY bonuses.  You gave them the whole freakin' game.  Ordinarily, a RESEARCH faction like myself can get to a SP first, get started on it early, and beat Domai before he starts slugging at it.  But I haven't had time to do anything this game except work on SPs, they're that expensive.  Even doing that, Domai finished half of them.

Half.

There might be an endgame where I can still win.  There might not be, I may be about to summarily lose.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

It's almost at the end of the tech tree, who the F cares about research anymore?

Well that is the nature of the tree. It has an end. Some thing should be there. Could be as well this one. And yes, if you win game by that point or earlier than it is largely irrelevant what is there and how much it costs.

[bvanevery]

So AI does sometimes produce native in large quantities for battle. Good to know.

At the end of the game, with a nearby enemy, to take back a base that used to be hers.

[bvanevery]

Well that is the nature of the tree. It has an end. Some thing should be there. Could be as well this one.

Secret Projects don't have to be at the end of the tech tree.  For almost all of them, I think that's completely dumb.  I did put the Telepathic Matrix at the end, in fact its with Threshold of Transcendence.  I think it's the "baby toy" of the game, the thing you do when you want to sandbox indefinitely.  I really can't see throwing out the mechanics of making your citizens happy, any earlier than the end of the game.  I still don't charge an arm and a leg for it, although it's expensive by my own mod's standards.  If you've gotten that far in the game, go ahead and win it already.

My tech tree trails off with the bigger weapons and armors.  I consider these to be the boring stuff in the game.  I keep them mainly because they have art assets.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The reason Domai can do any of this at all, is you made these SPs so back breakingly expensive for a human player on Transcend, who doesn't have any buffs, that you severely favor the AI factions with their inherent INDUSTRY bonuses.  You gave them the whole freakin' game.  Ordinarily, a RESEARCH faction like myself can get to a SP first, get started on it early, and beat Domai before he starts slugging at it.  But I haven't had time to do anything this game except work on SPs, they're that expensive.  Even doing that, Domai finished half of them.

Half.

There might be an endgame where I can still win.  There might not be, I may be about to summarily lose.

Believe or not, this is a music to my ears. Players constantly complain AI is stupid and weak so that it is easily beaten every single game even on Transcend. Swarm of modders tried to fiddle with rules for the sole purpose to make AI perform better but none prevailed. It seems this simple txt mod reached the point where AI at least doesn't suck every game!

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Well that is the nature of the tree. It has an end. Some thing should be there. Could be as well this one.

Secret Projects don't have to be at the end of the tech tree.  For almost all of them, I think that's completely dumb.  I did put the Telepathic Matrix at the end, in fact its with Threshold of Transcendence.  I think it's the "baby toy" of the game, the thing you do when you want to sandbox indefinitely.  I really can't see throwing out the mechanics of making your citizens happy, any earlier than the end of the game.  I still don't charge an arm and a leg for it, although it's expensive by my own mod's standards.  If you've gotten that far in the game, go ahead and win it already.

I completely agree with you. Putting anything at the end of the tree is dumb. Yet something should be there. Look at box game. There are tons of stuff there which is usually never reached.

[bvanevery]

Believe or not, this is a music to my ears. Players constantly complain AI is stupid and weak so that it is easily beaten every single game even on Transcend. Swarm of modders tried to fiddle with rules for the sole purpose to make AI perform better but none prevailed. It seems this simple txt mod reached the point where AI at least doesn't suck every game!

You shouldn't be so easily pleased.  "AI gets MOAR, human gets nothing" isn't a victory.  All you've implemented is an End of the World timer.

I don't think it happened the way I originally thought though.  Domai was not quite the eco-damage offender I thought he was.  The real problem, I think, is giving multiple kinds of factories fairly early.  When AIs get them, they build them.  If those AIs are also Free Market tending factions, they do lots of eco-damage.  Then the human isn't even playing the same game anymore, they're playing the "always flooding" game.

Maybe someone will enjoy lotsa floods + lotsa expense to build SPs.  I don't.  A mod needs repeat business from human players, to count as having solved something.  I don't know how many takers you'll get, we'll see.

I think you're doing some things in the SE that most people who know the game wouldn't put up with.  Dealbreaker territory.  Green in 1.4, for sure.  Eudaimonia is merely ill-advised because nobody will want to use it.

[bvanevery]

MY 2418.  Domai completes the Self-Aware Colony.  It took him a ridiculously small number of turns.  I believe that if he gets to Transcend, he'll win very quickly.  I've not really found a way to put a dent in him.  I've got probe teams that have been trying to sabotage one of his coastal cities, but it takes time to move them all the way over there.

I considered atrocities awhile ago.  The problem is, he had 2 nukes last I looked, and the capacity to make lots of nukes.  Even if genetic warfare was made legal, he'd still be pissed, and he'd retaliate worse than damage I could do to him.  I'm only fighting with 9 cities.  If even 1 of them is destroyed or taken, the game is over.

MY 2420.  I spend 5200 credits to rush the Cloning Vats.  I research Secrets of the Manifolds and begin the Telepathic Matrix.  I no longer need to research anything as I refuse to win the game by Transcending.  I still want my Manifold Harmonics bonus in the fungus though.  I've even planted fungus deliberately on non-developed, non-rainy terrain.

MY 2421.  Having completed the Cloning Vats I switch to Power, as it no longer has any liabilities.  I won't change from Cybernetic because I need the +2 PLANET.  Green has a -3 INDUSTRY penalty and that's not compatible with trying to get the Telepathic Matrix.  Meanwhile, Domai has shot down all my civilian Satellites.  I am only making Orbital Defense Pods for the time being.  I have a lot of terrestrial food though, due to my proactive homeland strategy the whole game.

MY 2423.  Domai destroys a lot of my Trance Cruiser probe teams with his Sealurks.  That + the rate at which he rebuilds things I sabotage, makes me feel the effort is completely futile.  Next year I'll just make Supply Crawlers to try to get to the Telepathic Matrix that much faster.  Meanwhile he hammers me with Orbital Defense Pods.  He's got overwhelming production and, more importantly, does not get tired of it.  Perhaps, though, the ones I'm launching may be keeping him busy?

MY 2425.  Domai begins the Telepathic Matrix at Free Drone Central.  He has 143 minerals production and only needs 5 turns to complete.  He only does 11 eco-damage in that city, even though he is +0 PLANET.  I do 12 eco-damage in a 72 minerals city with +2 PLANET.  One might think the Singularity Inductor is the best thing since sliced bread as far as toning down eco-damage.  But when I've had those projects, I've had my world totally destroyed in gigantic floods.  So I just think the AI gets to cheat.  Doesn't have to play the same game with eco-damage and global flooding that I do.

I might actually still beat him to this, if he doesn't pull a zillion supply crawlers out of his ass.  It's a bit hard for me to estimate.  I change from Simple to Planned economy to boost my INDUSTRY.  Remarkably, that enables me to rush the project this turn with 3500 credits.

I fear it will be a Pyrrhic victory, when he almost immediately produces the Voice of Planet and the Ascent to Transcendence.

MY 2426.  Domai will complete the Voice of Planet next turn by severe overkill.  Aside from my moral objections to Transcend, I resent it when the AI decides when the game is going to end.  I had that happen with a runaway Morganite faction once.  I may have written an AAR about it.  Might have been some kind of giant map game.

I forgot to stop Supply Crawler production earlier.  I'll be honest, I don't even know what I'm doing now.

1:30 AM.  Canning this for the night.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You shouldn't be so easily pleased.  "AI gets MOAR, human gets nothing" isn't a victory.  All you've implemented is an End of the World timer.

I don't think it happened the way I originally thought though.  Domai was not quite the eco-damage offender I thought he was.  The real problem, I think, is giving multiple kinds of factories fairly early.  When AIs get them, they build them.  If those AIs are also Free Market tending factions, they do lots of eco-damage.  Then the human isn't even playing the same game anymore, they're playing the "always flooding" game.

Maybe someone will enjoy lotsa floods + lotsa expense to build SPs.  I don't.  A mod needs repeat business from human players, to count as having solved something.  I don't know how many takers you'll get, we'll see.

I think you're doing some things in the SE that most people who know the game wouldn't put up with.  Dealbreaker territory.  Green in 1.4, for sure.  Eudaimonia is merely ill-advised because nobody will want to use it.

These are all different things could be tuned independently: tougher AI, flooding, early factories, pricier SPs, SE choices. The latter three are more or less optional for me. They can easily be altered by people demand.

Just checked how much earlier I put factories for my curiosity. Time placement for Genejack factory, Robotic assembly plant, Quantum converter, Nanoreplicator. Original: 55, 70, 85, 90. Mine: 50, 70, 70, 77. Hmm. Indeed somewhat earlier especially latter ones. Maybe I should move them later.
It's not advanced terraforming either. Original is 31, mine is 38. Even later.

As for SPs I agree some of them were relatively overpriced for their value. Their general price, though, is a moot point. Is it fun building them when they are cheap? If so, why don't we make them much cheaper than in box game? If not then keeping them unchanged just because they are so in boxed game kinda defeats modding idea.

SE is not a problem for me at all. Your feedback was nonconstructive so far, though. Just a flame and not a single proposition. Try one for change. I most likely won't argue.

I don't see what's wrong with Eudaimonic, though. +2 ECONOMY +1 INDUSTRY almost without penalties in peace time. The -1 EFFICIENCY is a penalty all right but with already high EFFICIENCY from other sources it is bearable.

[bvanevery]

Just checked how much earlier I put factories for my curiosity. Time placement for Genejack factory, Robotic assembly plant, Quantum converter, Nanoreplicator. Original: 55, 70, 85, 90. Mine: 50, 70, 70, 77. Hmm. Indeed somewhat earlier especially latter ones. Maybe I should move them later.

The 1st kind of factory I got was Robotic Assembly Plant, and that surprised me greatly.  I would have expected Genejack Factories to precede it.  This makes me suspect that you don't have much of a regime for requiring players to research a bunch of stuff before getting factories.  Inadequate prereqs, "here's your factories kids.  Now go cut your fingers off."

I don't know how your probability tool works, but I wonder if it actually measures the ease of getting to a specific tech, with specific research foci.  When designing the research weights, you can definitely make them so that techs "aim straight at" some result.  I did this recently for mindworm techs and the Explore focus.  It made a huge difference in how quickly you'd get to mindworms.  I turned several (power=4 growth=3) techs into (power=3 growth=4), making them Explore.  These pointed in basically a funnel towards mindworms.  Compared to how difficult it is to advance with weapons and armor in my tree, I almost wonder if I've broken the game.  If I've created "the one true weapons platform, the one true research path".  We shall see what testing and feedback I get on that, if any.

It's not advanced terraforming either. Original is 31, mine is 38. Even later.

Morgan made a few boreholes, that was about it.  Subjectively, I thought advanced terraforming came much much later than factories.

Is it fun building them when they are cheap? If so, why don't we make them much cheaper than in box game?

Game design is in the actual writing.  Just as creative writing is putting actual sentences on a page.  There is no way to say, a priori, whether a smaller or larger cost on something is going to improve it or make it suck.  There is only your judgment as a game designer, in the face of a complex system of player experiences. 

I say increasing the cost of all SPs to at least 300, and offering SPs no earlier than Tier 3 of the tech tree, improves the game.  This cost increase soaks up a lot of Artifacts that are otherwise too plentiful.  It creates real player stress trying to compete with the AI for the SPs, while still not dominating everything the player has to do, the way your overwhelming SP costs do.  I don't stop at 300, I have a progression up to 600, but that's it.

SE is not a problem for me at all. Your feedback was nonconstructive so far, though. Just a flame and not a single proposition. Try one for change. I most likely won't argue.

Look, I can't be 'constructive' if we're not even in the same conversation.  What you've done with Green in 1.4 is a joke.  I suggest you go play your mod with the Gaians.  Keep their default research choice, Explore, the whole game so that you can see what the tech tree looks like to the AI.  The minute you discover Green, switch to it, and never change it again.  That's what the AI would do, because the AI has to follow the compulsion specified in the faction.txt file.  Or else the AI will forego a choice and stay at Simple.  When it does that, I think it's a sign that the choice is pretty crummy.  It also creates the goofy experience of the AI lecturing you about being Green, when the AI itself is not Green.

My prediction is that when you play your Gaians, your civ is going to completely stagnate.  Primarily due to zero population growth, secondarily due to very bad industry early on.  You have a very growth-poor SE table anyways.  If a player is Green, the only early option for mitigating that is Democratic.  It only gives +1 Growth, so you'll go from no growth to barely crawling along.  And you'll get bad support.

I don't see what's wrong with Eudaimonic, though. +2 ECONOMY +1 INDUSTRY almost without penalties in peace time.

Ever heard of fighting mindworms bro?  Ever heard of being surprise attacked?  Being required to be at peace is a pretty serious handicap anyways.  One that a low POLICE rating already implements.

[bvanevery]

6:30 PM.  I came back to my endgame.

Can I win a nuclear exchange with Domai?  Problem: this isn't my mod.  Nukes can't just hit anywhere, they have to be launched within range of a target.  I don't have a forward position to do it from, nevermind not having the nukes just yet.  I can make 1 with all the excess Supply Crawlers I have, which is why I thought of it.  Problem: Domai's got an Orbital Defense Pod shield and Flechette Defenses in bases.  Things I never had time to build.

I found where his 2 nukes are positioned.  I thought about trying to capture the cities they're in.  Problem is, I don't seem to have any ability to intervene on his continent at all.  I keep trying to find a landing zone for Drop Transports, and there are none.  He must have many units wandering around in his interior now.

My original land linkage to Domai's continent, has long since been decimated by floods.  I don't have the fleet of Formers I used to, to quickly build a new one.  I could try to do it anyways, see if I can build Formers fast enough to take over his capitol with ground troops.  Seems like a stretch, but the more I think about it, the more viable it seems compared to the alternatives.

Some Tectonic Missiles could bridge the gap rapidly... if only they had larger than Fission reactors.  Also for inexplicable reasons in this mod, Planet Busters are substantially cheaper than Tectonic or Fungal payloads.  256, 360, and 360 respectively with +2 INDUSTRY.  That's a lot of Formers.

I decide to use spare Supply Crawlers to build a Fission Planet Buster prototype, since they have no other purpose at this point really.  Otherwise I build 3 Super Hover Formers, 1 Super Former, and an armored Hovertank Probe Team for next turn.  I figure there's no point making Drop probe teams because I can't find a drop zone anyways.  We'll see if any of this helps before Domai declares a victory.

MY 2427.  Domai begins the Ascent to Transcendence.  I'm quite shocked that in his 155 mineral city, it takes 30 turns to complete.  I check the Datalinks and this is basically correct, it's an egregiously expensive project.  8000 minerals, compared to the 3000 mineral Telepathic Matrix I completed, or the 2400 mineral Cloning Vats.  This would be a real drag for someone who wants to win the game by Transcending, it's way more boring than waiting 20 turns to Corner the Energy Market.  But for someone who actually doesn't want anybody to ever win by Transcending, this is a boon.

So, 30 turns to bring Domai under control, where I have pop booming and non-rioting drones and he doesn't.  I need to destroy all these factories he's built, to end his ability to spew out satellites infinitely.  I don't know how well a ground war is going to work, because he's got so many units already.  I may invade by way of Lal's former backyard, as it might enable me to control our conditions of contact better.  Roads exist all the way that way, it's just a question of turning them into rails.

I switch my budget to 100% Econ.  No Psych, no Labs.  I switch from Planned to Green because -1 EFFIC has a drastic effect on my Econ.  +3 EFFIC, by contrast, raises my credits to 1947/turn.  I "merely" suffer -10% econ with this choice.  I never do this lopsided budget thing, but these are desperate times, in a mod that provides few pleasant SE options.

MY 2428.  Domai has reduced his completion time to 26 turns, indicating that I have far less than 30 turns to get the job done.

MY 2429.  Domai needs 23 turns.  I have bridged to Lal's backyard.  I wonder if this is his last city?  I think I need to build all military units now.  I design 4 different kinds of String Squads for taking bases.  Also a Trance Radar Scout, which is cheap, will hold up to mindworms, and will help me advance across the wilderness.

I go Democratic, as it gets me an additional 300 credits/turn.  Support doesn't matter anymore, and my net support is now -1 anyways, not a problem.  PROBE is at -3 but I don't think I'm buying bases, I think I'm conquering them.  I hope I'm saving for an Economic Victory.  Domai's deployed satellites are horrific though.  I hope it's keeping him from thinking about military units.

[bvanevery]

Details the wise man of the game

the wise man of the game

MY 2430.  I build a rail to what I believe is Lal's last city.  He surrenders without a fight.  I extend my rail a little west of his city before running out of Formers to build it.  I make contact with some of Domai's mindworms and kill them.  Next turn I will assault Domai's 1st back city.  He needs 22 turns to complete his project.

MY 2431.  I'm going to need to destroy Tachyon Fields as I advance.  Their defensive strength overwhelms even my String Infantry.  Domai's 1st base has seen so much probe team action that I can't hope to sabotage with an ordinary team.   Instead I use those to steal money, gaining about 75 credits each.  Some die, others become Elite.  Algorithmically Enhanced teams have better odds, 75%.  I bring down the Tachyon Field but the team dies.  I make 1 per turn and have a reserve, so that's acceptable.

With only a Perimeter Defense, I don't quite understand the odds I'm looking at.  The top of the odds verifier says 3 to 2, but the actual odds below look closer to 1 to 1.  Rather than use another probe team to take down the defense, I attack to see which odds are correct.  I fry the crap out of the defender, indicating the 3 to 2 is correct!  Good, that means I can keep Perimeter Defenses, and I don't need to build expensive Blink Displacer units.  I did theorize that the end of the game was a good time to attack, because this mod would no longer have any new armors, and I'd have almost 2:1 odds on the armor.

+4 PLANET is turning out to be useful.  This mod raised the Psi offense bonus to +15% per point, giving me +60%.  However it's still not enough some mindworm vs. mindworm fights.

Details jerk asteroid

jerk asteroid

MY 2432.  An asteroid takes out the minerals satellites.  That might slightly help me, to the extent Domai tries to rebuild them, and doesn't build supply crawlers.  Perhaps it hurt the production of Free Drone Central, because now the Ascent will complete in 30 turns.  I've taken 3 of Domai's cities that used to be Lal's territory.  Now I must enter a severe isthmus to get to Domai's main lands.

This is starting to look like a winnable game.  I now have the offensive forces to overrun any individual city.  I'm switching to defensive units for garrisoning.  Domai doesn't seem to have garrisoned his back cities all that well, so as soon as I get rails to them, they will fall.  Meanwhile the Ascent is taking him long enough, that I actually have time to get within range of his capitol and sabotage it.  I guess Tim's extreme ideas on SP costs, finally "balanced out" when he blew the lid off the cost of the Ascent.  If Domai could have just summarily built it, the game would be over now.

Midnight.  Resting on my laurels today and signing off.

[Geo]

Funny turn of (random) events: it gives you much needed time to advance on the foe.

[bvanevery]

Funny turn of (random) events: it gives you much needed time to advance on the foe.

No kidding!  I think it's the only genuinely helpful random event I've ever experienced.  Now if we could just have a solar flare to knock out all his Orbital Power Transmitters.

8:20 AM.  I resume.  Merry Christmas!

MY 2434.  I run into the Spartans at sea and they agree to a Truce.  They hate me, but they like my Power politics.  The rate at which the Drones have rebuilt their Nessus Mining Stations is terrifying, they have 18 in orbit now.  They now only need 17 turns to complete the Ascent.  Although this game could be winnable, it is also still losable.  I have cleared the isthmus.

I'm finding that Domai's cities have Geosynchronous Survey Pods, which are essentially Sensor Arrays that I can't destroy.  I would destroy Perimeter Defenses to compensate, but they come from the Citizens' Defense Force and I'm finding I can't destroy them.  I'm going to have to take losses to secure the city at the end of the isthmus.  Invasion is not going to be the cakewalk I thought.  I start building Blink Displacer infantry to deal with it.

Details probe this

probe this

MY 2435.  Domai needs 15 turns.  However I have 3 times as much money as he does, so I think about buying cities.  I belatedly realize that a sea base I've been hitting with Cruiser probe teams over and over again, has 4 Secret projects in it.  Unfortunately it's prohibitive to buy it.  There is no point in changing my government model as I'm just a lousy probe team faction.  Instead I sabotage a Robotic Assembly Plant for the last time, and that's the end of my Cruiser probe team fleet.  It surely hasn't made any difference in the horrific rate of Nessus Mining Station production.  I don't understand how Domai can get away with it, without being totally destroyed by mindworms.

I am now encountering many more mindworms around Domai's cities.  It requires all of my own mindworms to eliminate and screen them.  I take losses upon assaulting the next city, due to the invulnerability of the Citizens' Defense Force.  One quirk of this game, is I've never had access to a Monolith.  So, I am restricted by the time it takes troops to heal up.  The Nano Factory helps with that some, but I also retreat a lot of troops by rail all the way back to my homeland to heal up at a Command Center.  Domai generally doesn't have those because he's got the Command Nexus.

After taking one of Domai's cities, I do not have enough Formers to complete a rail link to the next city, nor the troops to make forward progress anyways.  I contemplate what to do with the extra Formers.  I decide to raise an enemy sea base next to my rail route over the isthmus.  It has shot at my units with a Marine, and it has harbored a Locust that got badly wounded killing my expensive AAA unit.  Wiping this city out makes my supply line safer, but also wounds every last offensive unit I've got.

I check on what it would cost to Corner the Energy Market.  Over 1 million credits!

It's noon.  I save the game and go do Christmas stuff.