Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[bvanevery]

Main Advanced Space Flight association is Orbital power transmitter and I moved it at the very end as you did too.

My actual sequence is Orbital Spaceflight --> Advanced Spaceflight --> Global Energy Theory which gives the Orbital Power Transmitter.  These come at Tier 6, 7, and 8 respectively.  There are vastly long differences of time between those Tiers in my tree, because unlike yours, I've got everything stacked densely with 2 prereqs from the beginning of the game.

Yes it takes a long time to get Advanced Spaceflight in my mod.  The Cloudbase Academy comes then, one of the known overpowered SPs.  It's meant to come late and be expensive.  But for whatever reasons, in all the testing I've done, I've never seen the Free Drones flood the whole planet.  There is something very different about your Drones, and the obvious culprit is an overwhelming INDUSTRY bonus.  In my mod I nerfed the Drones, they only get +1 INDUSTRY for their faction.  There is no bonanza of easy, cheap INDUSTRY bonuses available either.

Another possible factor is your Drones compulsively pursue INDUSTRY as a secondary concern, like in the stock game.  Mine don't.  I left it up to the AI to decide whether more INDUSTRY is needed, since Transcend is giving the equivalent of +3 INDUSTRY anyways.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Hmm. They come at ~60% through research tree. You think it's late?

I know it is ridiculously late.  Past the 1st time of being challenged to not have them available, this is an extremely tedious, awful thing to do to the game.  You may play on Standard maps all the time, but anyone who plays on Huge or larger, needs to get units across the map somehow.  It is a complete drag to have to push them manually by roads or transports.  That's why I didn't even get into physical contact with Domai for so long.  He got to stomp the biggest land mass of the game before it was even reasonable for me to get to him.

The other exacerbating factor is the extreme cost of Secret Projects.  That didn't leave me with resources for troops.  Domai is stomping the big continent the whole time.  And if I had just let him build the SPs instead, I think it may have been worse.  He didn't get the Cloudbase Academy or the Cyborg Factory, for instance.  The Peacekeepers got the Maritime Control Center, couldn't do anything about it, and that's another disincentive to make an invasion.  Domai eventually took that from them.

I can move them, of course, easily. But where do you want to put them? At 40%?

I put them on Tier 2, the beginning of the game, because I'm pro rails.  That doesn't seem to be your style.

I don't care much about my style.

I am more concerned about changing as little as possible. This is not "new experience" mod. This is "make exiting features shine" mod. You are one of the potential players and I've heard you. However, I feel like moving feature from its 55% original position to 15% position is kinda drastic. Will others accept this?

As for SPs my position stays the same. They are awfully lucrative in the original game. Even with my increased cost they are still so lucrative that factions still race to build them. If you think they put an extreme burden on you that does not worth the cost - don't build them. Let me know if skipping them let you advance faster - I'll reduce the price then.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

These models have additional +1 TALENT that is not visible on a SE screen:
Fundamentalist
Planned
Thought Control

Why are you giving away so many benefits to these choices?

Take Planned for instance, you propose to give 4 benefits and 3 penalties.  That's assuming TALENT should even be counted as 1 benefit, I think it's really worth more like 2.  Regardless, Free Market has 2 benefits and 7 penalties, and Green has 4 benefits and 6 penalties.  This is not balanced.  Planned is clearly and obviously the best choice.  And why on Earth is Planned going to now become anti-RESEARCH?

I also don't get why Knowledge has to lose ECONOMY.  Or why Eudaimonia has to lose EFFICIENCY and be completely incapable of MORALE.

I am noticing that in my current game, the AI thinks your version of Eudaimonia is so bad, that the Drones refuse to choose it!  Even though it is their compulsion to choose it, the thing they lecture everyone else about doing.  They themselves are preferring to stay at None.  Think of the Drone Children!

Hmm. You keep blaming this mod for a lot of things it didn't claim to do. Specifically, it doesn't target to make AI play better. I would gladly borrow any sensible AI improvements from other mods for generic betterment as long as they do not contradict main idea. So suggest away!


Your criticism of my models is kinda pointless. No offence. You can apply same exactly argument to any variation including original.
For example, you criticize my Free Market for having "2 benefits and 7 penalties" whereas box has 2 benefits and 8 penalties and box Police State has 4 benefits and 2 penalties. Obviously, based solely on your way of looking at it (benefits and penalties), vanilla is even less balanced.
Besides, I never even claimed SE choices is my mainstream in this mod. I'll gladly take any other suggestions.

[bvanevery]

I'm looking at old saved games with the Scenario Editor to see what's going on.  In MY 2286 the Manifold Nexus still exists.  [..] Possibly, the lack of rails by this point in the game, make Lal's empire completely indefensible.

In MY 2360, Domai has completely stomped almost every Peacekeeper city within an immediate radius of Domai's earlier territory.  Lal is left only with scattered, distant, isolated bases in the east.  Without rails, density, or basic land quality, they will surely fall in time.  Domai is surely Governor by now, although I wish it was easier to check on that explicitly.  Size 7 cities and up generally have Genejack Factories and Robotic Assembly Plants.  They do substantial if not horrid eco-damage, as Domai is still Fundamentalist Planned Power with a +1 PLANET rating.  He's built various facilities that mitigate eco-damage.  His INDUSTRY is still at +2, and his production bars are at 6 minerals.

The Manifold Nexus is at 18 meters and is Endangered.

Details clean coal

clean coal

Morgan has managed to do very serious eco-damage in 2 cities.  This one is doing 34 damage, another is doing 19.  This one looks like there have been multiple fungal pops around it already.  Morgan has a Free Market economy and a -3 PLANET rating.

Details quantum volcano

quantum volcano

Ummm the Data Angels are doing 56 eco-damage on top of Mt. Planet.  They've built a quantum converter.  That's not good!  They might be doing as much eco-damage as all of Domai's empire combined.  Wish there was a way to check that easily too.  The Data Angels are otherwise a runty faction with no substantial output.  Of course they are Free Market with -3 PLANET.

The Spartans are a minor offender, 3 cities with 8..15 eco-damage.  They are Fundamentalist Free Market, -2 PLANET.

The Pirates are doing modest eco-damge in some cities, up to 15.  They don't have any factories, it's just from their exploitation of their Minerals advantage.  They are +0 PLANET.

At this point in the game I, the University, am almost but not quite a saint.  I've got a +2 PLANET rating, 1 city that's doing 15 eco-damage, a couple more that are doing 2..4, and I'm building the facilities I should be building to clean this up.  None of this came from me, I'm the least offending faction.

[bvanevery]

Specifically, it doesn't target to make AI play better.

You surely don't have an agenda to make the AI play substantially worse.  Who in their right mind would make a mod to do such a thing, and try to balance combat etc?  If someone wanted to make a sandbox that was best for a human to exploit, so that it was always easy to conquer a faction if you wanted to, then I'd get it.  Otherwise, -4 MORALE in the SE table has no justification under any circumstances.  What are you thinking??

Your criticism of my models is kinda pointless. No offence. You can apply same exactly argument to any variation including original.

Not to mine since about 1/3 of the way through development, obviously.  I adopted a pretty rigid stance on "benefits and penalties" pretty early on.  And I never swung the SE in such wild directions like you've been doing.

For example, you criticize my Free Market for having "2 benefits and 7 penalties" whereas box has 2 benefits and 8 penalties and box Police State has 4 benefits and 2 penalties. Obviously, based solely on your way of looking at it (benefits and penalties), vanilla is even less balanced.

Whether it's less balanced than what you've been up to, I seriously have my doubts.  But it is definitely not balanced, with Free Market standing out as the huge offender.  Otherwise though, the Politics, Economy, and Values choices do not have any kind of capricious weight to them.  The Future Society models were really tilted, but they also came almost at the end of the game, where they can't do that much damage.

Besides, I never even claimed SE choices is my mainstream in this mod. I'll gladly take any other suggestions.

My suggestion is you put the time into thinking about SE, because it's quite possibly a serious source of "suckage".  That said, I have not yet figured out exactly why Domai went nuts with global warming in this game.

[bvanevery]

I am more concerned about changing as little as possible. This is not "new experience" mod.

Well that's just not even basically true.  You've already changed quite a bit.

However, I feel like moving feature from its 55% original position to 15% position is kinda drastic. Will others accept this?

Of course they will, I have plenty of downloads of my own mod to prove that, and lots of history of people continuing to download my mod.  I work on trying to get yet more people to download it, which is an Art, and not easy.  None of that is the issue.  The issue is what you personally want regarding rails.  What I've told you I don't want, is an almost no rails game.  I play Huge maps, I need rails.  Perhaps you should try playing some Huge map games and see how it goes for you without rails.

One thing about rails, is being capable of building rails is only the start.  You have to have the surplus production to make the Formers to actually build the rails.  You've got other jobs you could be doing with those Formers, for awhile at least.

If you think they put an extreme burden on you that does not worth the cost - don't build them. Let me know if skipping them let you advance faster - I'll reduce the price then.

Problem is, my testing resource is drying up.  I can't afford to spend the time on testing your mod at this level, over and over again.  I have my own mod to consider, and I should be moving on with actual programming of a new game, not modding.  Some of these draconian SP prices, I definitely don't agree with.  The AI seems to be buffed enough to just build them anyways, it's like a giveaway to them.  You may need someone else to come along and say, "some of this SP stuff sucks, you've gone overboard".

One thing I am clear on, is you rendered the HSA pointless, by putting Algorithmic Enhancement long before anyone can even start the HSA.  You should fix that.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I am more concerned about changing as little as possible. This is not "new experience" mod.

Well that's just not even basically true.  You've already changed quite a bit.

However, I feel like moving feature from its 55% original position to 15% position is kinda drastic. Will others accept this?

Of course they will, I have plenty of downloads of my own mod to prove that, and lots of history of people continuing to download my mod.  I work on trying to get yet more people to download it, which is an Art, and not easy.  None of that is the issue.  The issue is what you personally want regarding rails.  What I've told you I don't want, is an almost no rails game.  I play Huge maps, I need rails.  Perhaps you should try playing some Huge map games and see how it goes for you without rails.

One thing about rails, is being capable of building rails is only the start.  You have to have the surplus production to make the Formers to actually build the rails.  You've got other jobs you could be doing with those Formers, for awhile at least.

If you think they put an extreme burden on you that does not worth the cost - don't build them. Let me know if skipping them let you advance faster - I'll reduce the price then.

Problem is, my testing resource is drying up.  I can't afford to spend the time on testing your mod at this level, over and over again.  I have my own mod to consider, and I should be moving on with actual programming of a new game, not modding.  Some of these draconian SP prices, I definitely don't agree with.  The AI seems to be buffed enough to just build them anyways, it's like a giveaway to them.  You may need someone else to come along and say, "some of this SP stuff sucks, you've gone overboard".

One thing I am clear on, is you rendered the HSA pointless, by putting Algorithmic Enhancement long before anyone can even start the HSA.  You should fix that.

Put HSA at the middle and made it cheaper.
Put MagTubes to level 4, 30%. Cannot move it earlier. I hope this should be right time when empire growths big.

[bvanevery]

1.4 definitely has a better installation regime.  I trivially throw all the files on top of my existing installation.  Don't know if you'll stick with the title, but it's a better working title than "Right Time".  Noticed the mod_changes.txt, that's helpful.  Can't test the effect of any of this on faction growth this late in my game, but I haven't really done combat yet.  Domai and I might be headed for a big blowout, it depends on what I choose to do.

First thing I notice, is that Biomachinery has different prereqs.  It's no longer the next tech in the tree for me.  I need Sentient Econometrics, and then String Resonance.  Not sure how this changes my game plan.  I of course will steal as before.  I guess play the Artifact as before, but accept that this won't get me to where I need to be.

MY 2406.  The Drones are going to instantaneously complete the Nethack Terminus, using a spare copy of the Bulk Matter Transmitter.  Its position has been moved in the tech tree.  Not an option for me as I wasn't working on any SP.  The BMT itself will be completed in 2 turns.  I won't be able to sabotage it, as I lost 3 Cruiser teams between last turn and this.  My 4th team stole Sentient Econometrics, making it past a security lock with 88% chance of success, but that also sent it back home.  Just as well because if it kept going, it would have died.  Lotta Sealurks.

4 turns until my next tech.  I think I'll wait until then to pop my Artifact.  Realizing that I could use a few Drop Transports and Mindworms to go grab the remaining Artifacts on land.  Sounds like a plan, as I'm not ready for a full on invasion yet anyways.  Not sure trying to do an orbital invasion would even work.  I think there may be fungal towers on some of these pods, as on the island with the most pods, I have great difficulty finding a landing site.  At last I drop onto 3 different islands.

I am noticing that the new Green SE choice is egregiously unfair to factions that are supposed to be PLANET friendly.  -3 SUPPORT and -3 GROWTH ?  That's pretty ridiculous.  The Gaians have to go Green, it's their compulsion.  I predict they will immediately die in any game they're in now.  They'll either go Green and completely stagnate, or they'll decline and stay at Simple Economy, putting them at a disadvantage compared to other factions.  The stock Cult of Planet will be similarly disadvantaged.

Now in my case, I was only doing Green because the Manifold Harmonics gave me a bonus for it.  I doubt these penalties are worth the bonus, especially the -3 GROWTH zero population growth.  I certainly couldn't have done that this game if I had started with version 1.4 instead of 1.3.  I change from Green to Simple, because Planned will impede my RESEARCH and I don't want an EFFIC penalty either.  This changes fungus from 2-3-4 to 1-2-4.

MY 2407.  The new Cybernetic gives +2 PLANET +2 RESEARCH +1 EFFIC -3 POLICE.  Due to my Manifold Harmonics bonus, it's a much better deal for me than Thought Control, which now has a -3 SUPPORT penalty.  I can't believe anyone will ever take Eudaimonic with its -4 MORALE penalty.  I switch to Cybernetic, gaining an excessive +7 RESEARCH.  I'll be ditching Knowledge next turn I think.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

1.4 definitely has a better installation regime.  I trivially throw all the files on top of my existing installation.  Don't know if you'll stick with the title, but it's a better working title than "Right Time".  Noticed the mod_changes.txt, that's helpful.  Can't test the effect of any of this on faction growth this late in my game, but I haven't really done combat yet.  Domai and I might be headed for a big blowout, it depends on what I choose to do.

First thing I notice, is that Biomachinery has different prereqs.  It's no longer the next tech in the tree for me.  I need Sentient Econometrics, and then String Resonance.  Not sure how this changes my game plan.  I of course will steal as before.  I guess play the Artifact as before, but accept that this won't get me to where I need to be.

I don't recommend to swap version in the middle of the game. I.e. load saved game on top of the different version. I tried this and noticed some inconsistencies. Looks like game sucks some changes and makes them permanent for this save so changes in txt doesn't have effect on it. That and the mere fact that tech tree changed and you will have a mess in your research.

[bvanevery]

I don't recommend to swap version in the middle of the game.

Of course it is not ideal, but I'm not going to play a fresh game of 1.4.  I don't have the time.  At least combat stuff can be observed in the endgame, if I even stand a chance against Domai at this point.  Also, I can already see that the new SE table has some serious flaws.

MY 2408.  Domai completes the Bulk Matter Transmitter.  He also researches Digital Sentience and begins the Network Backbone.  It costs 1000 and yet he only needs 7 turns to complete it.  If Domai gets far enough to Transcend, I'm doubting I can do anything about it.  He is a monster.

Domai takes a Pirate base that's facing my home waters, that I once owned myself.  This makes it very convenient to steal Digital Sentience from him.  I actually have 3000 cash, so I could possibly get the Network Backbone myself.  It's not going to have much use for research at this point, but it removes the negative effects of Cybernetic.

I switch from Knowledge to Survival, lowering my RESEARCH to +4.  I don't want a -2 INDUSTRY penalty for Power.  I don't want -3 MORALE for Wealth.

MY 2409.  Santiago shows up with a stack of 6 or 8 Sealurks, I forget how many.  Some turns ago, I took away a base of hers that she put in my home waters.  She wants bribe money, which of course I don't give her.  She's weak, and I wouldn't buy her even if she was strong.  I have 2 Trance Sea Formers, she attacks them, and all her Sealurks die.  My units get down to 60% wounds, but they live.  They limp 2 squares into port to heal.

I learn Self-Aware Machines.  I start the Self-Aware Colony in a low production city.  I use a Supply Crawler that's been convoying a few energy since forever, I disband a bunch of early game units, and I spend a huge pile of cash to rush the Network Backbone.  I cash my Artifact and gain String Resonance.

MY 2410.  My Cruiser teams keep getting destroyed by Domai's Sealurks, so I change to a Trance Cruiser Probe Team design, Algorithmically Enhanced.  They will take 2 turns to make instead of 1, but they may actually reach their targets and clear the sea of Sealurks.

With the Network Backbone, I no longer have a POLICE penalty from Cybernetic.  I drop Police State in favor of Frontier, in order to raise my EFFIC from -1 to +1.  I'm not sure how much good that will do me.  My credits/turn goes up slightly.  POLICE drops to +0 because I have the Aesthetic Virtues.  I never built any Non-Lethal units, I've never had time.  I don't want Democratic, either for the -3 SUPPORT or for the -1 PROBE.

MY 2411.  Why make the Self-Aware Colony so godawful expensive?  It doesn't do that much.

[bvanevery]

MY 2415.  I research Biomachinery and switch to the Cloning Vats.  I would need 8700 cash to rush, and I've got 3400.  It'll be a number of turns yet.  I have not found any Artifacts from land supply pods so far.  I've completed Airbases and am starting to bring my Drop units home.  I have 1 Cruiser Transport heading for a sea pod in Roze's back waters.  She's the only faction at peace with me.  That reminds me, with my new government choices, some factions might be willing to call off some fights.  Hm, nope.  3 ignored me, 1 swore my death.

Domai has started building a lot of satellites, seriously making me wonder if I can catch him.  I guess it depends on whether the AI figures out how to pop boom or not.

MY 2417.  Domai starts shooting at my satellites.  I start building an Orbital Defense Pod in 1 city.  I hope it is enough.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

MY 2408.  Domai completes the Bulk Matter Transmitter.  He also researches Digital Sentience and begins the Network Backbone.  It costs 1000 and yet he only needs 7 turns to complete it.  If Domai gets far enough to Transcend, I'm doubting I can do anything about it.  He is a monster.

Wow. Really? Even if he has +5 INDUSTRY which halves cost then it should have something 70 base production. I guess this is achievable with all multiplier facilities but still amazing. Well, isn't it an argument for SP cost increase? With original one it would finish it in 3-4.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

MY 2409.  Santiago shows up with a stack of 6 or 8 Sealurks, I forget how many.

So AI does sometimes produce native in large quantities for battle. Good to know.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

MY 2411.  Why make the Self-Aware Colony so godawful expensive?  It doesn't do that much.

It halves maintenance. Assuming you spend about 50% of energy on maintenance in later game then you just get 25% of you budget free! It's like an equivalent of 50% research speed up if you can channel them there.
Did you build it? If yes, did you see cash flow increase?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

bvanevery,
I've created new topic for the mod versions specifically. Thank you for help in early testing!