Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

So shifting initial balance of psi combat to 1:1 actually improves Gaian's winning chances by 50% comparing to factions without this benefit. That was my whole point.

That doesn't make sense.  2:1 favors offense with psi, not Gaians.  Gaians will be on offense or defense in any given situation.  If they are trying to trash other factions, you've taken away their teeth.

First, as I just explained, their teeth are mostly intact. Everyone has now 50% change winning in psi combat without any modificators. With +1 PLANET (+10% strength) it changes to 75%. With +2 PLANET (+20% strength) it reaches 90% winning chances. About the same bonuses gives the Morale for troops against natives. So you see they already have pretty hefty attack bonus and they can improve it even more if they need so.

With 3:2 default odds and with +1 PLANET they are going to kill everybody 100% of the time ignoring perimeter. I don't like teeth working 100% of the time. That renders all other factors of the game unusable. As you yourself nicely put before: everything should cost something. Gaian's already have a bonus taking them half way to victory. Let them sacrifice something else to get to this victory completely. Otherwise, when this cost nothing, it becomes a must use strategy or you just lose your advantage. This is what I am arguing against in this topic and, I believe, you do too.

Yes. Every time somebody modify something in game it changes somehow. Strategy and tactics preference changes slightly. It becomes somewhat different game. That what modders do. Why should we blindly afraid that modified game would feel somewhat different than vanilla? If you want to preserve all it had play vanilla then.

[bvanevery]

Interesting. Sure I can try that - piece of cake. Just didn't follow your explanation exactly to the letter. Is it published somewhere on the Net?

Nope.  I haven't looked at the game's disassembly and that's what you'd actually have to do to be 100% certain this is how things are done.  But, I've been doing linear algebra since birth all of my so-called career as a 3D graphics programmer, and this is how people like Brian Reynolds use a vector of weights.  There is documentation in the respective .txt files that these are weights, and the category of a tech does change when you change the weights.  Also, my empirical results over time seem to match what I have described to you.  If it isn't perfect, it is clearly good enough as an analysis.

[bvanevery]

First, as I just explained, their teeth are mostly intact. Everyone has now 50% change winning in psi combat without any modificators.

When I am the attacker with a mindworm, I have way better odds than that! 

With +1 PLANET (+10% strength) it changes to 75%. With +2 PLANET (+20% strength) it reaches 90% winning chances. About the same bonuses gives the Morale for troops against natives. So you see they already have pretty hefty attack bonus and they can improve it even more if they need so.

No, I don't see.  You are requiring me to be a +2 PLANET faction to be able to make effective use of mindworms.  In my mod that means being stuck with Green and Knowledge.  Both have their penalties, and Knowledge isn't even something you can have right away.  What does the enemy have to do to keep up?  Get Doctrine: Mobility, a Conquer 1 tech, and build a Command Center.  Access to improvement is way skewed here.  There's no way to get around the fact that you're nerfing the offensive power of mindworms.  What did mindworms ever do to you??!  Didn't they cuddle you, tickle your tummy enough as a tiny baby?
 

With 3:2 default odds and with +1 PLANET they are going to kill everybody 100% of the time ignoring perimeter. I don't like teeth working 100% of the time.

You're supposed to counterattack them.  They get pretty beat up making their attacks, they have no stamina against a counterattack.  If you don't want to be attacked in the 1st place, you build Trance units.  Trance ability is free in the stock game.  I ended that, tired of giveaways that just complicate the unit designs.

That renders all other factors of the game unusable.

No, because there are all kinds of other military potentials, PLANET strength does still matter in the stock game, and mindworms have slow movement.  They are not the One True Weapons Platform.  They are not in need of special persecution.

As you yourself nicely put before: everything should cost something. Gaian's already have a bonus taking them half way to victory.

You're going on about the Gaians like they're some kind of stock Believers with an inherent +2 SUPPORT faction bonus.  They are not a steamroller faction!  Nobody historically thinks so, that I'm aware of.  I toughened up my Gaians, they're still not what I'd call awesome at military operations.  You are conflating "what you'd like to see happen about Planet Pearls" with what kind of military might any faction evidences in practice.  Fighting in this game is not an on paper spreadsheet, there are too many tactical considerations for it to be that simple.  I'm willing to try your changes, with a test game including 3 PLANET factions.  I predict this is not going to be a happy experience for a PLANET oriented player.

Why should we blindly afraid that modified game would feel somewhat different than vanilla?

The issue here is whether you're solving problems of offensive vs. defensive balance, vs. failing to understand existing combat and asymmetrical tactics in the game.  In eliminating what's different about mindworm combat, you might be making this into a more dull game, with fewer tactical choices.  But I will suspend judgment until I see what mindworm combat actually behaves like under your new regime.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Regarding mindworms. I guess it's a matter of preference. You prefer them to be your way then please do. As I said at the beginning, this change is not a mainstream one in my approach. Feel free to revert it.

[bvanevery]

Ok, is your alphax.txt "current" now?  Made any more changes?  I'm actually in the middle of my own half-decent game with Morgan sitting on the Monsoon Jungle, and I'd prefer to keep playing that for a bit.  But I can put your alphax.txt in the queue for a next game, on top of stock SMAC.  I'm curious whether your weapons progressions work or you've screwed the pooch somehow.  I will test by playing as the Gaians, against the Cult of Planet, Caretakers, Usurpers, and 3 other random factions.  In the stock game, the Gaians are the one's I'd most expect to be harmed by mindworm shenanigans.
 

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Ok, is your alphax.txt "current" now?  Made any more changes?  I'm actually in the middle of my own half-decent game with Morgan sitting on the Monsoon Jungle, and I'd prefer to keep playing that for a bit.  But I can put your alphax.txt in the queue for a next game, on top of stock SMAC.  I'm curious whether your weapons progressions work or you've screwed the pooch somehow.  I will test by playing as the Gaians, against the Cult of Planet, Caretakers, Usurpers, and 3 other random factions.  In the stock game, the Gaians are the one's I'd most expect to be harmed by mindworm shenanigans.
 

Yes. It is current. I played it yesterday. Keep in mind though I didn't put efforts in aligning and rebalancing the rest of the options those may need rebalancing due to my changes. Things like factions, SE, basic rules - I didn't touch at all. It is not fully rounded and well polished mod. Just one element of it that can be used in other mods. With that in mind I can as well take yours as a base and apply my changes on top of it if you like to keep your mod experience with SE and factions. Piece of cake for me.

I appreciate your interest. Feel free to tweak anything there and let me know if I should adopt it.

[bvanevery]

Well that's the rub.  If you don't think your alphax.txt is "standalone" yet, then it makes more sense for me to merely tweak the 1 setting about psi combat and go test it.  I'll review other things, but there's no way I'd ever rip up all my weapons and armor, so not even worth testing that in my mod.  Only principles that would apply to my mod, are worth testing there.

I will review.

[bvanevery]

Look at my estimate. It has index of 32 out of 85 which is about 40% down the line. It's more like middle, not early one.

You are neglecting that Alien factions make a beeline for it, to get the R-Laser.  It's their tech after all.  And that they have a head start getting there due to Field Modulation.  It also seems to be popular enough among human factions.  This is probably due to the Aliens readily trading their 3-Res armor away, or it being stolen from them.  In the stock SMAC I'd say Bioadaptive Resonance is an "early midgame" tech.

I forgot about Ogre equipped with this weapon, though. Well this is a first draft there be a lot of misses. We can think how to deal with it later or just swap it for some earlier technology and lower the strength.

If you want to have a very powerful R-Laser, then you just put a lesser armament on the Ogre.  I did give Empath Song to the Ogre so that they would still have some offensive capability against mindworms.  Truth is mindworms tear them up though.  Doesn't matter what you give them.  Trance, High Morale, 3-Res armor, doesn't matter.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Well that's the rub.  If you don't think your alphax.txt is "standalone" yet, then it makes more sense for me to merely tweak the 1 setting about psi combat and go test it.  I'll review other things, but there's no way I'd ever rip up all my weapons and armor, so not even worth testing that in my mod.  Only principles that would apply to my mod, are worth testing there.

I will review.

It is standalone as I understand it. I said I didn't polish and rebalance its other elements. That's it. So it is vanilla txt with my changes. This is completely playable. However, I didn't play it a lot yet and didn't gather statistics from other people and their suggestions.

About your mod you misunderstood me as usual. I do not suggest you add my changes to your mod and distribute it as next AIG version. I will borrow your tree (and maybe SE and factions too) and add mine on top of that and distribute it as my mod. Which you are welcome to try.

[bvanevery]

Good idea. I didn't touch much these special items yet. Can I just rename them in file?

Yes.  You'll need to rename references to them too.

[bvanevery]

Ok, here is the set of what I'll actually test.  I'm not going to do chassis, weapon, and armor changes, I already did that.  That's something you'd need to develop to your own play balanced satisfaction, and then hopefully someone else's satisfaction.

I will put Believers and Spartans in the game to test the attack bonus vs. inherent Spartan military skill.  Spartans also because they get free prototypes unlike other factions.  I will play as Gaians and include Caretakers, Usurpers, and Cult of Planet to test effects on PLANET factions.  In the stock game it is also worth noting that both the Believers and the Usurpers get -1 PLANET.  1 faction left to pick, who to round out with?

Probably should just accept that my Morgan game is derailed anyways.  Too much YouTube research the past 48 hours.

Prototype cost increased.
100,     ; Extra percentage cost of prototype LAND unit
100,     ; Extra percentage cost of prototype SEA unit
100,     ; Extra percentage cost of prototype AIR unit

Psi combat equalized.
1,1,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (LAND unit defending)

This one just taken from some other mod. Don't remember which.
50,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus

Removed penalty for non combat units.
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit

Sensor improved.
50,      ; Combat % -> Defend in range of friendly Sensor

Taken from some other mod. Feels like it makes sense.
15,      ; Combat % -> Psi attack bonus/penalty per +PLANET

Disabled rest of reactors.
#REACTORS
Fission Plant,        Fission,     1, None,
Fusion Reactor,       Fusion,      2, Disable, ;Fusion,
Quantum Chamber,      Quantum,     3, Disable, ;Quantum,
Singularity Engine,   Singularity, 4, Disable, ;SingMec,

BTW it looks like you did not actually attach your alphax.txt to that post.  And it looks like you forgot about "ship in port" in the list above.  I know what!  Last faction will be the Pirates, to test ship in port change.

Think I'll test a Standard map.  Someone will probably be runted by the lack of space, but skewing effects on early game violence needs to be tested.  Standard ensures that immediate collision between various factions is likely.

Getting rid of Fusion, Quantum, and Singularity, has the small skewing effect of 2 tech tree entries that have all kinds of weights set in their favor, but are not actually worth anything.  I won't change any of that, because they are still prereqs to other techs.  Fusion Power occurs late midgame in my mod anyways, and for all I know a Standard game could even be over by then.  One unanticipated skewing effect of losing Fusion reactors, is the AI may not make any Super Formers or Super Fungicidal Formers, due to perceived unit cost.  We'll see.

[bvanevery]

My initial experience is the changes haven't affected my Gaian opening game in my mod.  In my mod I have a 20% PSI bonus unique to the Gaians, so that might be part of it.  With their starting +1 PLANET that's a 35% advantage.  Wouldn't shock me if the Cultists are not much affected either, since with their starting +2 PLANET that's a 30% advantage.  The Caretakers with +1 PLANET would have a 15% advantage, but with Directed Research they are not as dependent on capturing mindworms to make progress in the game.  All of my experiences so far are mere mindworm exploration.  I'm not "beating the bush" with anything other than the mindworms and spore launchers I've captured.  I've also picked up 2 Rovers from supply pods I've popped, 2 Unity Choppers, a 2nd independent Scout, and a 4-1-1 Unity Mining Drill.  The Scouts I keep home, but they allow me to send other things to the field.

I've started on fertile land at the base of Mt. Planet.  The Caretakers are to the northeast, and sufficiently distant to not cause me an immediate problem.  The Believers are to the east at a similar distance, sitting on the Monsoon Jungle.  As of 2138 both of these neighbors are Seething, so we will be going to war sometime.  I actually dominate the power graph though, I'm slightly ahead of Miriam, so it won't happen just yet.

The Cultists are my ally and are sitting on 1/3rd of the Monsoon Jungle.  Maybe they will war.  On the other hand, in my mod they are both Fundamentalist factions, so maybe they won't?  I won't be shocked if I'm called upon to wipe out the Believers.  That would be a good mindworm combat test, so if asked, I will do it.

The Pirates are in the ocean to the southwest and are currently Magnanimous.  I have a Treaty with the Usurpers and they are Noncommittal.  I am unsure of their location, but it doesn't look like it's near me.  Not a word from the Spartans, and they are weak on the graph.

My current ambition is to Explore and make new cities, as I still have good land to fill out.  And room to do it, without immediately getting into fisticuffs.  I have kept the Gaian's traditional Explore-only focus.  In my mod, a fair number of Conquer techs have an Explore component as well, so it seems viable.

[bvanevery]

Details double jeopardy

double jeopardy

MY 2141.  First evidence that Tim's PSI settings don't work as he intended.  My Scout popped a pod on Rocky terrain and was surrounded by 3 hatchling mindworms.  I had a Scout Rover nearby so I attacked 1 of them.  That left 2, and also promoted them to Larval Mass.  They then attacked my Scout and it lived.  Unheard of.  Never happens that way, even with a factional PSI bonus.  The new settings may not make it harder to flush fungus at all.  They may merely change the way you game it, as now "don't attack" is the best move.

It would be good to see how a non-PLANET faction does in similar circumstances.  But I will keep going with this game for now.

Details die grasping upon me

die grasping upon me

MY 2145.  Defense against mindworms is clearly too easy now.  Granted this unit is Hardened, but this isn't even a Trance unit.  If I want to take out the Believers, I predict that all I'll have to do is make a bunch of mindworms and it'll be a cakewalk.  The special vulnerability of mindworms to pre-emptive attack is gone.

[bvanevery]

Details threesome

threesome

MY 2136.  This sequence proves that the AI is not hardwired about mindworm capabilities.  It is clearly afraid of the defensive capability of my unit.  After popping, I got back out of the way.  1 of those 3 mindworms could have attacked me, and it simply doesn't.  Next turn I drive right on by, out of harm's way.  Another unintended consequences of the odds change: easier for a Rover to escape.

Details three WIMPS

three WIMPS

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The new settings may not make it harder to flush fungus at all.  They may merely change the way you game it, as now "don't attack" is the best move.

First of all, thank you for investing your time in that. I really appreciate this.

Regarding the worm strategy. Technically "don't attack" is not a best move now it is just not a worst one anymore.