SMACX AI Growth mod

[bvanevery]

Details keep your enemy close

keep your enemy close

MY 2248.  The Pirates finally declared war on me, as they didn't like my Knowledgeable ways.  They are going to be devastated by piles of unarmored X Impact Cruisers, trained by the Maritime Control Center.  The Pirates aren't a major power in this game, although cleaning them up will be a bit sloppy as they're scattered.  Unlike last time, I doubt they can outproduce me. 

Lal is the other major power of the game.  He's been chewing up Deirdre.

[Rocky]

I lost my second game as the University as well. I was wedged in between the Spartans (West) and the Gaians (East). With limited room for me to expand the Spartans had almost twice the amount of population already. And (no surprise there) were very hostile. I did better with my military tech this time around but had some trouble getting Impact weaponry.

I wanted to invade Gaian territory to gain more land to expand on, but I was worried the Spartans would attack me from behind. (Impact Rovers already moving at my borders) I couldn't get Deirdre to ally with me against the Spartans so I attacked the Spartans on my own.

Had some success early on by taking out several of their units. But then the Gaians backstabbed and allied themselves with the Spartans against me. A series of mind worm attacks overran my border city. Probe teams relentlessly stole tech (Impact weaponry) and energy from me.

At that point it was game over. The Spartans recovered with a new stack of Impact units and Probe teams. Deirdre refused to speak with me and her mind worms and Recon Rovers were now approaching my core cities, and she was already prototyping Impact units.

On a positive note, I did better than last time with military tech. I should have invaded the Gaians to deal with their native units first instead of worrying about the Spartans. Their mind worms proved to be more of a threat in that stage of the game than the Spartans did.

[bvanevery]

Did the game go on long enough for either the Spartans or the Gaians to make Condensers, Thermal Boreholes, and Supply Crawlers?  If so, then I'd definitely say you're doing something wrong with your growth earlier, as it should take a pretty long time now for the AI to get around to that kind of stomping.  Thinker Mod was the major driver for me delaying all sorts of "more minerals" techs.  I was successful at greatly delaying it, but it cannot be postponed forever.  Eventually the AI will get its toys and then it will start to do its thing.  Need to overrun them before it happens, say with hovertanks or Locusts.  Locusts are good at tearing up undesired enemy infrastructure.  With the stock AI, I usually use them against Sensor Arrays.

Alternately, did either of these powers complete the Weather Paradigm?  You cannot let Thinker Mod do that, unless you're willing to play a rough game.  I've let it happen just to see what the consequences are.  From a gaining victory standpoint, it is not at all desirable.  It can be tolerable if the empire who gains it is sufficiently far away from you.  If they're your land neighbor though, no, forget it.  You'd better destroy their city building it, or run probe teams to sabotage it, or complete the thing yourself, or take it away from them after they've built it.  It's that important in a Thinker Mod game.  I raised the cost of the WP as much as I was willing to, and it does give a human player a longer window to snatch it from under the AI's nose.  But I can't really put the brakes on it entirely, because the whole point of the WP, is to get all those capabilities earlier.

In my mod it's easy to go Green.  In fact it's much easier than I'd like it to be, but that was the price of making sure the PLANET seeking AIs would actually choose it.  Captured mindworms are the best legal early game weapon.  In fact I've been somewhat worried that they're the only good weapon, but I'm not going back to giving away offensive weapons.  And I can't very well stop the capturing of mindworms, as it's a core game mechanic and fundamental to the narrative as well.

I have intended that if the pace of offense and defense is maddeningly slow and counterproductive, that the player strongly consider the alternative of committing atrocities.  That's part of why chemical weapons are available with C1 High Energy Chemistry.  The other reason is because of Aliens.  I figure if they can bother you without you getting to say much of anything about it, then you should be granted the means to kill them!  Although the point may be somewhat moot nowadays, since you really need C3 Applied Physics to kill much of anybody conventionally.

Anyways, consider atrocities early and often!  Although you'll want to get them legalized, because otherwise Planet is gonna kill you.  Not a problem if you're an Alien or fighting the Aliens.  Planet bleeds for the precious UN rules.

I don't remember Thinker Mod being particularly capable of overrunning things with mindworms.  That could be a later game behavior, a simple consequence of the enemy making lots of units.  It may have something new programmed since the last time I played.  It was not really any better at combat when I was playing several months ago.

Probe teams stealing lots of money, sounds like a new behavior.  The stock AI never steals money at all.

[bvanevery]

Details Davy Jones' Locker

Davy Jones' Locker

MY 2259.  I sink my 1st Pirate base.  I'm surprised that X Impact Cruisers are not enough to summarily execute his Synthmetal defenders.  Seems he learned Doctrine: Initiative and now has a Naval Yard as inherent sea base defense everywhere.  Oh well, I'll use the units I've got until they're dead.  The Free Drones are also at war with the Pirates and still at peace with me, although they do hate me and have made threats.  They took over a sea base with a probe team, so I'll leave the bases in that direction to them.

My main strategy is to hit Svensgaard's outlying bases first, the ones that don't have much in the way of ships coming from them.  That's where my unarmored execution units have the most advantage.  Since I need to shell the bases first before hitting them, it's important to have a few turns without interference.  I should be able to gradually liquidate the Pirate periphery and save their core for when I have better weapons.

Lal has got Gatling Guns and is at war with me, but they're somewhat far away.  I could make a Cruiser Probe Team I suppose, and steal from one of the relatively nearby bases they took over from the Gaians.  But right now I'm focused on getting rails belatedly built.  There's a full war on and I want to be able to deploy internally any way I wish.  I am gradually building up my own probe team defenses, but I actually have only 1 city working on that.  Fortunately it's only locals that have tried to send probe teams against me so far.

I've got piles of captured Isles to use as reserves, but if I stick them too close to the front, they just get killed.  I have them hanging back, which is not where I need them to be to interdict approaching probe teams.  It's not a problem from the Pirates anymore as they generally come from their home waters just west of me.  But there's a southeast ocean where in principle, something could approach.  In practice, I think Lal is still preoccupied with slaughtering Deirdre, and Svensgaard's cities in that region might be worrying about Domai.

If I redeploy now, I'll probably be ok and not suffer any takeovers.  Also, I did raise the cost of mind control for a reason, to keep it from being easy to mess with me unless it's like the Data Angels or some +3 PROBE faction.  My empire is also nicely centralized so it shouldn't be cheap to take over anything.  That's part of why I'm willing to destroy cities completely.  Mine are better than theirs and I really don't want distant headaches, especially since I'm the only Alien in the game.

Details goodbye flower children

goodbye flower children

MY 2260.  So much for the Gaians providing a distraction!  And dangit, they're allied with Svensgaard.  They haven't even met Domai.  That's kinda weird but not impossible, as they are separated by a fair amount of water.  It means that Lal has never become Governor.  They're dominating as the supposed #1 faction on the graph, with Domai and myself roughly tied for a distant 2nd place.  Oh well, things can change.  I'm not sure I'm going to get a chance to commit atrocities against Lal though.  He may get Orbital Spaceflight before I do, at the rate he's going.

[Rocky]

Did the game go on long enough for either the Spartans or the Gaians to make Condensers, Thermal Boreholes, and Supply Crawlers?  If so, then I'd definitely say you're doing something wrong with your growth earlier, as it should take a pretty long time now for the AI to get around to that kind of stomping.  Thinker Mod was the major driver for me delaying all sorts of "more minerals" techs.  I was successful at greatly delaying it, but it cannot be postponed forever.  Eventually the AI will get its toys and then it will start to do its thing.  Need to overrun them before it happens, say with hovertanks or Locusts.  Locusts are good at tearing up undesired enemy infrastructure.  With the stock AI, I usually use them against Sensor Arrays.

In vanilla Alien Crossifre I was able keep up with Thinker AI most of the time. But with your mod the Thinker AI feels more dangerous. This is part because I'm re-learning the game with your mod, but with the changes in military tech and research paths the AI seems to have more options to portray strength early on. (And I like it)

I have to confess, this is the first time I disabled Boreholes/Condensors in the Alphax.txt. (This is because of the AI, NOT because of your mod)

Your mod delays the Boreholes/Condensors (And I really like that) but in my first AI Growth game as Peacekeepers rising sea levels still became a problem between 2250-2300. (The AI's had eco-damage ranging from 30-100!) It actually seemed to hurt the AI in the mid-game. Lots of aliens, eco-damage and a disrupted resource income.

I just want to test if Thinker AI can still manage without Boreholes/Condensors. As it has a preference to plant forests, it may still be able to build up a strong empire mid-game with Tree Farms/Hybrid Forests.

The Kyrub AI mostly seems to skip Boreholes (sometimes it builds one or two near its Headquarters but manages the eco-damage) but still does well because it focuses heavily on Forests/Tree Farms/Hybrid forests. I hope this is the same for Thinker AI.


The Gaians were using Green economics early (This in contrast to Kyrub's AI, which prefers to run Planned) I have to pay attention next time if it increases the strength of native life.

The Gaians indeed had a lot of mind worms (I assume most of them captured) and although they packed a punch I didn't feel they were overpowered. The AI caught me out of position a few times; whenever I could get in the first attack the mind words weren't that scary. Overall I would say it feels balanced, and I like the flavor of the Gaians going native.


Thank you for your advice and playing tips. I appreciate it.

[bvanevery]

Thinker mod is more dangerous with my mod rules than vanilla?  I find that a surprising result.  The point of many of my early game rules is to delay combat by denying offensive weapons, so that everyone has more of a chance to build up a defense.  Are you playing on Huge maps with 30%..50% land mass, as I recommend?  Or something else?  My mod may not be as balanced for some other size and composition.  I also do Average settings, not the extremes.

Another point of my early game is to deny early starts on Secret Projects.  You just don't get to do that.  Also that SPs are expensive.  Even if I've got piles of Artifacts, the competition for SPs is fierce.  A few of the expensive ones like the Planetary Energy Grid and the Hunter Seeker Algorithm, and my horde of Artifacts will be gone.  That's with cleaning out an entire Huge map too.  I'm pretty good at that drill and the stock AI isn't.  Thinker Mod didn't know how to do anything in that dept. either, last I played a few months ago.  Anyways I can't ensure that I get all the SPs even with vanilla AI now.  Some games I may only get 1/2 or 1/3, depending on what my start is like, and what my priorities turn out to be.

Another point is that Politics and Economics choices are easy to obtain.  There are no SPs blocking you from trading the techs for them.  I'm doubting that Thinker Mod can exploit this better than you can. 

Yes, consistent rising water levels are no fun at all.  It's a drag.  All you do is run around doing empire repair.  And then "rivers of death" come that completely wipe out the repairs you made.  Later for that rubbish.

I never build Boreholes.  I rarely build Condensers.  Forests always come first for me and I'm not putting a Condenser where it's mostly forest.  By the time the Condensers are available now, I've long since finished building "core" cities.  I do put the Soil Enrichers everywhere, which is my new "officially blessed" way of how you're supposed to get more food.

I've played "Boreholes everywhere" games in the past, before I started modding.   Wasn't that impressed with the results, so crossed it off my bucket list.  Been there, done that.

Even without Boreholes and Condensers, Thinker Mod should still exploit Supply Crawlers and Mines.  Although, I did make those Crawlers much more expensive to mitigate this.  A Fusion Supply Crawler costs as much as an Artifact, 50 minerals.  Granted, an AI on Transcend will get the effective +30% INDUSTRY bonus, so that's not the sticker price the AI is paying for them.  But it's still more than they would otherwise cost and it does slow the AI down some.

Weather paradigm is still worth a lot because of 50% terraforming speed increase.  But for some reason it doesn't award Soil Enrichers.  One has to wait until B5 Planetary Economics, which takes a long time.  So if Boreholes and Condensers are out of the game, I doubt that the WP is game deciding, the way it otherwise would be in Thinker Mod.

Trance Scouts are a good cheap antidote to mindworms.  They're a predefined unit, so the AI knows how to make them too.  Hmm, makes me wonder if the Cloaked Scout is being made too much instead.  Also I think the unit designer messes up the predefined Trance 3-Res Sentinels.  I seem to have to design that unit myself.  Getting the AI to build more kinds of Trance units, might reduce the cakewalking I tend to do with mindworms.  I mean if I actually used all the mindworms I captured in the current game, at least one of my enemies would be so dead.  Instead I just leave them all at home as this big badass garrison.  I only like to push units across the map if I have rails.  Far fewer mouseclicks.  Some games I just wait until orbital insertion because I'm lazy.

I wonder if I should reintroduce armored Police units.  I tried Police Scouts for a few iterations I think, but the AI never used them properly in practice.

[Rocky]

I'm playing on Huge maps with 30%-50% landmass with either medium or heavy fungus. I had the Spartans two times as my neighbors, and with their focus on the Conquer branch my experience might not be the same for the other factions.

I like the more expensive SP's. It feels right.

In vanilla Alpha Centauri (against Kyrub AI) I have a habit of building a few Boreholes near my Headquarters but other than that I'm also going with the forest strategy. Maybe in my current game I could try out an Echelon Mirror, never really build those before.

Morgan seems to be getting close to Tree Farms. I'm keeping my fingers crossed the Thinker AI will aggressively build them.

Heh, I know the feeling about being lazy. I love the game but I've reached a point I want to do things in as few clicks as possible. Sometimes I just give up on conquest and go for the "turtle" route. I remember games when I was younger where I just kept building Planet Busters simply because I couldn't be bothered moving my armies.

I have never used chemical weapons before. If I have a chance I'll try to get the Charter repealed to see how they work.

Encouraging the AI to build more Trance units could definitely work. Trance is an ability that stays strong throughout the game. It's an ability I use the most on my units.

Police units sound good, especially flavor-wise for factions like the Hive or Spartans. Does the AI need to be modded in order to build them or will the AI use them when they're needed?

[bvanevery]

In my mod the Spartans have had an Explore, Conquer focus since version 1.29.  This is the same as many other factions in the game.  They needed it in order to expand better at the start of the game.  The only faction that has a pure Conquer focus is the Usurpers.  For some reason they have always expanded just fine without help.  I am thinking that when the Alien Crossfire expansion was shipped, some new code got put in for the Aliens.

Heavy fungus hurts the vanilla AI.  It spreads stupidly and gets lotsa colonists killed.  I don't know what happens with Thinker Mod with that, as I always tested with my same world settings.

I don't think Echelon Mirrors are going to make any noticeable difference in your game.  In the past I've played "Echelon Mirrors in the middle of the Sensor Array" games, and I never saw any boost worth writing home about.  I think they're just a gewgaw.  Forests are the true way IMO.

Sometimes if I'm isolated and really bored, and have way too many Formers, I Drill to Aquifer on all the Rocky terrain, so that my Mines will have rivers on them and give me energy as well.  It makes no real difference, it's just a minor optimization ritual.

Remember that you don't need to legalize chemical weapons if you are an Alien or fighting an Alien.  That's because Planet's vengeance is tied to what the Planetary Council voted on!  If it's legal, Planet doesn't take vengeance.  Really stupid and immersion destroying.

The Spartans don't have a POLICE bonus in my mod.  I couldn't tolerate them having better POLICE than our dear Chairman Yang!  And now his faction ability is getting +1 POLICE at the start of the game.  He doesn't get that weirdo wonky "immunity to EFFIC / JUSTICE" stuff anymore.  He just gets POLICE so good, that they can repress all of that!  And it works.  Any faction can do the same thing if they get the Ascetic Virtues and choose Police State.

You raise a really good question though: is anyone actually making any Police units?  I don't think they are.  That's definitely worth investigating.  Yang is definitely powerful nowadays so I don't think I need to solve a problem for him, but he'd be even better if he made proper use of Police when they become available.

[bvanevery]

I can make a Synthmetal Police unit easily enough in the tech tree.  All I have to do is make High Energy Chemistry a prereq of Biogenetics instead of Doctrine: Mobility.  I think that's better from a lore standpoint anyway, since HEC gives nerve gas.  This makes Synthmetal Armor always available when Intellectual Integrity is available.  Now I don't yet know if the AI will actually use such units, but unlike a Police Scout, it can be properly designated as a Defensive unit.  So there's a chance it will work.  Finding out for sure, will have to wait until after I'm done clobbering my enemies in my current game, as testing this is pretty much a restart sort of thing.

Details last of the Datatechs

last of the Datatechs

MY 2270.  The Datatechs are dead this turn, if I want them to be.  I'm surprised how effective a mere Spore Launcher and some mindworms were against them.  Granted I do have +3 PLANET.  Any time they got it in to their head to make artillery, I'd just trot my Spore Launcher onto some fungus.  They'd shoot at me and I'd win the duel every time.  I'd heal at a Monolith and do it again if need be.  After even slight shelling, my mindworms would just trash the bases.  I have 3 in theater now, and I've not really had to use my X Laser Speeder.

Taking this city raises a conundrum though.  The Datatechs will be eradicated, so will the citizens be counted as Datatechs or mine?  I want to put Datatechs to death, not my own citizens.  I'm worried that the transfer of power in the last city, might change things.  On the other hand I don't think Aliens have any restraint or consequences on committing atrocities?  Can I just nerve staple all my people and nothing bad ever happens?  I wonder.

I suppose I can save the game and just get on with it.  If I think something bad has happened, go back.

Details that's my story and I'm stickin' to it

that's my story and I'm stickin' to it

Smells like crispy Datatechs to me.

[bvanevery]

Details fifteen men on a dead man's chest

fifteen men on a dead man's chest

MY 2274.  I've utterly devastated the Pirates to the north and west of me.  Next turn their last base in the region will be gone.  I took minimal losses as they just haven't had any productive capacity.  They seemed to vapor lock themselves with too many garrison units.  I've wondered why, although I suppose they've been in a war with the Free Drones for quite some time.

I haven't seen them build much in the way of Sea Formers.  I looked at their faction profile and it said they were Aggressive, which doesn't make much sense, because they are set to Passive in my mod.  Do they appear to be Aggressive when I'm playing an Alien faction?  Well that may not have helped their cause.  Do they become Aggressive when atrocities are perpetrated upon them?  Well that would be a pretty good trick!

Meanwhile I just finished stealing several techs from the Peacekeepers, and I completed the Hunter Seeker Algorithm right out from under their nose.  I've been going full Discover and am working on Industrial Labs and the Network Backbone.  I'm even doing it before bothering with Tree Farms.  I don't feel I need to make any new military units until my X Impact Cruisers are done wiping out the Pirates.  Then I have to see how advanced Lal is, because it wouldn't be a good idea to commit atrocities if he's got nukes.  We're all still pre-nuke though.

[Rocky]

You're right about the Aggressive setting. When you play as one of the Aliens all human opponents are automatically aggressive.  It may represent the distrust and wariness of the humans towards the aliens about their intentions.

After seeing your playthrough as the Caretakers on this page I put my Peacekeeper game on hold and started one as the Caretakers as well. I'm playing this game with the vanilla AI as I want to practice with native life forms. (It's weird, the vanilla AI seems to be working better now after re-installing the game)

I'm having a lot of fun so far "going green." It makes me wish I had tried this earlier. No hassle with unit upgrades (except for keeping up with prototypes) I have to wait and see if they're still viable later in the game but so far it's been fun. (I can't wait to make my own naval force of Isle of the Deeps/Sealurks, and maybe a few X cruisers as escorts. I haven't tried chemical weapons yet)

I'm curious, can you capture bases with Locusts or do you need other units for that?

[bvanevery]

Yep, Locusts and Gravships take bases.  They can also be attacked by units on the ground!  But for some reason the AI doesn't attack them with ground units.  They might as well be Needlejets, they seem to provide invulnerable cover for ground units underneath them.  I think this is a bug, one way or the other.  Only recently did I realize that if Planet attacks me with Locusts, I can use ground units to get rid of them.  This behavior is true in the original game, no modding.

[Rocky]

Cool! Thanks for your reply. This opens up options I can't wait to try out.

[bvanevery]

Details a watery grave

a watery grave

MY 2298.  Next year the Pirates will breathe their last.  Chemical elimination of the Pirates is the most effective strategy I've come up with for dealing with them.  Building rails along their shores and attacking with Marines isn't bad, but it can take a really long time.  It's just not fun or worth it to actually capture Pirate bases, as you don't get the minerals bonus on water like they do.  Maybe if the Pirates had seriously terraformed the oceans with lots of mining platforms it would be different, but they still tend to have sea bases vastly far away from your own empire, that aren't going to be worth anything except for production.  Just a big hassle.  I say wipe 'em out!

I've been in a shooting war with Domai for a bit now.  Recently I started lighting him up with chemical weapons.  I'm nowhere near his territory, I'm just dealing with his spam on my own border.  I think he's physically marched his piles of units all the way to me, I don't think he has any roads or rails helping him out.  I used my independent mindworm reserves to blunt his advance, and now I'm slowly starting to make counter forces.  What can I say, I wanted my Industrial Labs and Tree Farms.

I've started using Fusion X Artillery on him.  He had established 1 tiny base next to my home territory, which was annoying to get at because of all his spam in the way.  Well a couple of artillery duels cleared that right out!  Chemical weapons artillery is a pretty neat trick for clearing out bases.  The AI thinks it's going to prevail in artillery duels and it just won't.  Not when I've got Fusion, Missiles, and Xenoempathy / Pholus fungus backing me as defense.  I'm going to build up my forces, push Domai back, and start building a rail straight into his heart.  I'll wipe out every city that doesn't have a Secret Project in it.  The prizes are the Planetary Energy Grid, the Weather Paradigm, and the Merchant Exchange.

To add insult to injury, I'm now genetic warfare capable as well.  I'm just nowhere near his cities yet.

I have taken 2 minor bases at the extreme southwest corner of Lal's empire, that used to be owned by the Gaians.  I did this with some mindworms and scout units only, the same troops I used to wipe out the last of the Datatechs.  I have refrained from committing any atrocities, as I'm concerned he might achieve Orbital Spaceflight before I've finished wiping out Domai.  Generally my atrocities policy is "one at a time", to minimize the risk of getting a nuke in the face.  I had some "flooded planet" game once where some folks I'd gassed early in the game, actually survived long enough despite my expectations to nuke me late midgame.  Lesson learned.

[Rocky]

^

I'm really enjoying your battle reports. Well written and fun to read.

In my game as Caretakers Zakharov surprise attacked me for a second time. So far he has taken out three of my border bases but my mind worms are finally in position, lurking in the fungus patches along our borders.

A scout revealed the University is also at war with the Usurpers. The Usurpers are dropping on the power chart.

The Morganites are annoying me with several Foils from the south but the first Isle of the Deeps should be finished breeding soon. The Morganites started this war by demanding almost all of my credits. I assumed they wouldn't be a threat for some time but I was surprised at the number of ships they send my way.

It's going to take time but both the Morganites and University are going to regret this.

This is the most fun game I've had in a long time!