"January Game" Setup & TTT

[JeroenDStout]

Here be a thread for setting up (and probably tracking) our 4 player game. Currently not looking for players (but maybe again in the future!).

All the following is under consideration and up for discussion, I just wanted to type it out. I will update this post to reflect our choices.

Factions
Gaia’s Stepdaughters - Misotu
Human Hive - ?
University of Planet - Vishniac
Morganites - Kirov
Spartan Federation - Eadee
Lord's Believers - ?
Peacekeeping Forces - JeroenDStout

Timezones
- JeroenDStout: +01 GMT
- Eadee: +01 GMT
- Misotu: +01 GMT
- Kirov: +01 GMT
- Vishniac: +01 GMT

Gamemeister
- Person who has all the passwords: Pending

Rules
Forum rules: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1519.0

House rules:
- Reverse-engineering is allowed, with the exception of a Probe and a Speeder chassis.
- Being caught probing other players requires one to choose the vendetta option and inform them afterwards. If not caught, nobody needs to know.
- In game message information (including Planetary Council) must be fully shared with all players.
- Do not retire unit designs through the design workshops (upgrade or disband them on the map, modify the design into something new in the workshop): this bugs the game.
- Make no attempt to find out information about tiles in the fog of war which is not immediately visible (zooming, hovering, &c).
- When sending a message to another player, (privately) inform them of this.

Game rules:


Addendum:
- Collaborative victory possible for at most two players, during the game any number of alliances are permitted.
- AI players do not count to the two player limit.
- Players are understood to uphold the U.N. ideals initially: a player going rogue should treated with suspicion (in-game).

Game & Map
Version: SMAX with original 7 factions
Difficulty: Thinker
Size: Larger
Ocean: Average
Clouds: Average
Erosion: Average
Native Life: Average

[JeroenDStout]

A little note/request from me about the 7 factions; I am turning my games into a YouTube series where I play the original seven factions in seven series of videos. So I would be quite invested in having the original seven factions in our game for the sake of that.

Considering I am also recording this, I would like to know how I can refer to you in the video 'splash screen'. Videos look like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM21SGSxwfQ... except that in our game I will write 'with' instead of 'vs'

With regards to the Kyrub 444 patch: I played a game with Eadee with this patch and Miriam and Yang were very capable foes in terms of expansion and terraforming. Miriam even ran out of land and dominated the seas. So AI opponents are worth their salt in this, if you can keep them as a friend they are formidable.

[Eadee]

I'd still vote for SMAX with SMAC-factions only.

[Misotu]

Hi, the internet is still dreadful but at least I can see this forum     Hello guys.

Thanks for setting this up Jeroen. Like Eadee, I'd vote for the original seven factions but SMAX if poss. I've not played with Kyrub's patch before but I don't mind downloading it if that's the preferred.

I'd like to play Gaia please and if this does turn into one of your videos then I'm fine with "Misotu" on the splash screen.

With regard to passwords etc, do you think we might be able to ask someone to do a map for us as well as holding passwords? It's not that I want anything special in the way of a start, but it's really not much fun for a builder to find herself right on top of another human player (or one of the AI, come to that, especially if they're competent!)

Anyway, looking forward to the game and despite the internet woes I'll try to check in at least daily.

[Eadee]

tbh I have no idea about mods and patches. Reading through some chatlogs makes me believe that I have Yitzis patch installed atm.

About the setup, I'd just go with something random and roll with it, but I have no problem with a "staged game" either.

And to ease it: I almost never played spartan before. Usually I play a builders game as Gaian or Hive against AI in Librarian difficulty. I don't think anyone has to be afraid of me.
I've played only two PBEM's by now (also hive and gaian), both with/against Jeroen and I just want to play santiago for some variety.

[JeroenDStout]

Hi, the internet is still dreadful but at least I can see this forum     Hello guys.

Thanks for setting this up Jeroen. Like Eadee, I'd vote for the original seven factions but SMAX if poss. I've not played with Kyrub's patch before but I don't mind downloading it if that's the preferred.

I'd like to play Gaia please and if this does turn into one of your videos then I'm fine with "Misotu" on the splash screen.

You are very welcome, thank you for partaking in the game!

Let's see what Kirov says but I wouldn't be boycotting SMAX. I just don't know what AI patches there are for SMAX, though, Kyrub's patch makes such a vast improvement to the AI (it built such pretty roads in my last game, almost like a human).

I added you as Gaians and made note of the name

With regard to passwords etc, do you think we might be able to ask someone to do a map for us as well as holding passwords? It's not that I want anything special in the way of a start, but it's really not much fun for a builder to find herself right on top of another human player (or one of the AI, come to that, especially if they're competent!)

Hmmm, I don't quite know, I think part of the fun for me is starting with the random odds, which can be good or bad, but rarely game-ending from the start. Especially when cooperation is possible... it would defuse the tension a bit for me if I knew someone made the game 'reasonable' as opposed to us (the players) genuinely exploring a completely unknown world

And to ease it: I almost never played spartan before. Usually I play a builders game as Gaian or Hive against AI in Librarian difficulty. I don't think anyone has to be afraid of me.
I've played only two PBEM's by now (also hive and gaian), both with/against Jeroen and I just want to play santiago for some variety.

Yes. This won't be a rover rush game at all

I mean, you probably shouldn't leave your back door unlocked in either case 

[Misotu]

I understand about tension, truly, but sometimes the game does *really* dumb things. I fired up a game last night for fun and Morgan's HQ was situated six tiles away from Believer HQ (on a huge map too!). Guess what happened? 

But I'll go with the flow. I have Yitzi's patch installed and find that works fine - I don't know if it affects the AI but I haven't noticed anything dramatic. Didn't realise that Kyrub's patch was only SMAC, I see that now I'm paying attention. Even so, four human players should ensure plenty of excitement in the game so I still vote for SMAX but let's see how Kirov votes.

OK Eadee, I'm less concerned about the impact rovers rolling over the hill now    I'm a rubbish militarist so that's a relief. I still don't want to be next door to you though ...

[JeroenDStout]

I understand about tension, truly, but sometimes the game does *really* dumb things. I fired up a game last night for fun and Morgan's HQ was situated six tiles away from Believer HQ (on a huge map too!). Guess what happened? 

You had some peaceful negotiations  ?

OK Eadee, I'm less concerned about the impact rovers rolling over the hill now    I'm a rubbish militarist so that's a relief. I still don't want to be next door to you though ...

If he tries anything, the U.N. will feel obliged to send its forces, surely.

And if I try anything... well... I am the U.N. 

[Kirov]

Hi guys, I'm in but I'm like crazy busy these days and can't really focus my mind of SMAX. I can't even decide on the faction off the top of my head, sorry for that. It's 2v2, right? So we go against Sparta and the UN? How can we possibly challenge the UN Mandate defended by the iron fist of the Sparta regime? I want to surrender and start over already.

As for the game choice, usually I play SMAX but have no problems with going basic. I played some early version of kyrub's and it sure looked promising. I'm always up to something new. So, I abstain my vote.

What I really, really recommend is disabling the Empath Guild and Cloud-Base Academy. In my opinion, both are imbalanced for MP as eff. Do you guys accept any additional rules?
 
Another thing would be cutting the power of choppers, either by capping their max attack or forbidding to attack bases.

And last thing, especially for 2v2, I'd recommend blind research. I know, I know, it's a random thing for beginners. Yes with the former, no with the latter. First and foremost, blind research prevents this lame-A thing when two factions get 2 techs at the price of 1 (by sharing 1 tech just before the other guy's breakthru). Secondly, it prevents the predictable beelines we all know and hate. Thirdly, it forces you to buy crap only so you don't have to research it. Fourthly, you're kinda forced to trade and/or probe. Sure it's random and there is a chance you end up with Field Mod instead of NLM, but for me, the pros outweigh the cons.

Would you guys even consider adapting the standard rules, which are somewhat imbalanced? Early releases and crowd testing weren't a thing back in 1998 and I'm afraid it shows. Let me know.

I'm thinking on the faction now.

[JeroenDStout]

Hello Kirov

Hi guys, I'm in but I'm like crazy busy these days and can't really focus my mind of SMAX. I can't even decide on the faction off the top of my head, sorry for that. It's 2v2, right? So we go against Sparta and the UN? How can we possibly challenge the UN Mandate defended by the iron fist of the Sparta regime? I want to surrender and start over already.

Not technically a 2v2 but a game where alliances are encouraged. So if you want you can try to hook up with everybody. The only limitation (house rule) is that you cannot win with an alliance of more than 2 human players. Nobody is forced to ally, but if a player goes for the war path the other 3 can unite against this player.

What I really, really recommend is disabling the Empath Guild and Cloud-Base Academy. In my opinion, both are imbalanced for MP as eff. Do you guys accept any additional rules?
 
Another thing would be cutting the power of choppers, either by capping their max attack or forbidding to attack bases.

I can see the problem with Cloud-Base, but not with Empath Guild.

As far as choppers go... I think by the time choppers show up, and there is war, it is already a heavy air war with great casualties. I don't think choppers at this point really change much, they just speed up the game. I also just think with the right strategy you can make sure you can intercept or prevent choppers from attacking (air superiority, AAA, interceptors, SAM rovers, &c).

All in all I feel a bit uneasy about tampering too much with the rules... I actually like the 1998 roughness of it, it makes for exciting stories after the game, even if things end up not being fair. Cloud-Base is just a crazy thing, sure, but even then; say Eadee starts building Cloud-Base, why don't we all just team up and planet buster him? I mean to say; we can just agree as players that building Cloud-Base is an act of war?

And last thing, especially for 2v2, I'd recommend blind research. I know, I know, it's a random thing for beginners. Yes with the former, no with the latter. First and foremost, blind research prevents this lame-A thing when two factions get 2 techs at the price of 1 (by sharing 1 tech just before the other guy's breakthru). Secondly, it prevents the predictable beelines we all know and hate. Thirdly, it forces you to buy crap only so you don't have to research it. Fourthly, you're kinda forced to trade and/or probe. Sure it's random and there is a chance you end up with Field Mod instead of NLM, but for me, the pros outweigh the cons.

I think blind research is the only real way to play this game! Actually I think it's beginners who disable it

The first post shows the current rules + house rules.

I have changed the game version to SMAX, now we just need to figure out which patch.

[binTravkin]

Hi, Jeroen!

Sorry for not replying - the email address you contacted me has fallen into misuse.
I see you've already set up and good to go.
I'm actually kind of split over whether I should join more games.
Last time I didn't put my brakes on, I got involved into 14 simultaneously.. 

So, I hope you have much fun in this game!

[JeroenDStout]

Hello binTravkin,

I think when I contacted you it was about a previous game, not this one... it's been that long

We set all of this up as a 4 player game, though I would not mind a 5th player, even though I wasn't counting on one. I don't know how anybody else feels about this

EDIT: I was wrong, I did e-mail you, but when I got no reply I forgot that I had sent it (I thought you were gone!)

[Eadee]

If the game doesn't get too slow I could even live with 7 players. However I'm horrible impatient and really hope to play at least an average of 1turn/day

Blind Research is default and I don't see any reason to switch it off.

Since I do not have much MP-expierience I can't say for sure which SP might be OP or not. So, we don't need to ban any in my oppinion, but if the more expierienced players recommend it I'm fine with it (Same with choppers).
Just give me a clear rule set at start and I'm ready to go.

[JeroenDStout]

I chatted with binTravkin privately and he said he would be too busy for joining the game.

[Kirov]

Not technically a 2v2 but a game where alliances are encouraged. So if you want you can try to hook up with everybody. The only limitation (house rule) is that you cannot win with an alliance of more than 2 human players. Nobody is forced to ally, but if a player goes for the war path the other 3 can unite against this player.

Goes without sayin', mate. I can't imagine still alive SMAC players going 3 against 1 or even 3 against 2 if those 3 are good. We are all gentlemen and ladies here. Actually, it is my personal rule that I concede defeat only to one player if there are no pre-set alliances. Otherwise, 2 reasonable players early allied can dominate virtually any game, even a 5-player one. I don't need any specific house rule here, but let's have some class, saying to noone in particular as we all surely have it. I have this impression that you two are friends so I thought I'm gonna look forward to ally with Misotu. If we want to truly start out neutral, let's stress it from the beginning. Of course, ganging up on the strongest one is a thing I'm always for.

I can see the problem with Cloud-Base, but not with Empath Guild.

It's all about infiltration. It should be costly as hell and it's not for the one player who's got EG. A custom from 'poly times. I'm not gonna insist on everything I suggest so I can back down here but please do know I consider this Project super important and I'd definitely beeline to it if not for that pesky blind research (see how handy it comes already?)

As far as choppers go... I think by the time choppers show up, and there is war, it is already a heavy air war with great casualties. I don't think choppers at this point really change much, they just speed up the game. I also just think with the right strategy you can make sure you can intercept or prevent choppers from attacking (air superiority, AAA, interceptors, SAM rovers, &c).

AAA is off the basic tech lines, SAM rovers prove no resistance against the chop & drop strategy. I just wanted to avoid one of two inevitable things (1) aircraft slugfest, or (2) "I got D:AP/MMI first so I won this game, thank you very much".

Just recently we had a game when it was all strategic growth up to some point and then I threw the towel shortly after. There was literally no point in coming to the battlefield. As long as airpower is strong as it is, there are no super cunning tactical shenanigans you can employ, it's all about who can throw more aircraft at the front line. I'd like to see some use for navy besides exploration/scouting and for infantry besides airborne base taking. Let's talk about it more perhaps...?

All in all I feel a bit uneasy about tampering too much with the rules... I actually like the 1998 roughness of it, it makes for exciting stories after the game, even if things end up not being fair. Cloud-Base is just a crazy thing, sure, but even then; say Eadee starts building Cloud-Base, why don't we all just team up and planet buster him? I mean to say; we can just agree as players that building Cloud-Base is an act of war?

Well, that roughness kinda wore off for me. SMAX is very imbalanced sometimes, but I know that people tend to be conservative about the rules. Fair enough, I can step down a bit but I do want to avoid things which are imba and boring as hell.

And no, ganging up against a player who's doing well doesn't work as it should in my experience. I tried and failed many times to establish a coalition against the forerunner. People are just too busy to conduct diplomacy in this way. If you guys are different, tell me so and I can't be more happy.

I have changed the game version to SMAX, now we just need to figure out which patch.

Patch is the latest Yitzi's. It's no problem apply it and it does solve many issues and bugs (don't do the stockpiling, it doesn't work here).

A few more questions:

- caught probing requires notifying the victim; fair enough, but the issue we discussed here on this board - do you have to say why we have vendetta now? Can you play dumb about it? (the replies here were inconclusive to me but I got this impression that people think it's okay that I tell you 'uh oh, we have vendetta now' and then pretend I don't know why)

- please tell me about the bugs about tiles in the fog of war; I thought I know most of them, but not these

- first time I hear about 'suspicion towards a player going rogue'; how do we go about that? what do you have in mind?

EDIT: typo