Author Topic: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game  (Read 44993 times)

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Offline Bodissey

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #180 on: June 13, 2015, 01:06:14 PM »
I'm with Kirov a 100% on these matters. I've seen him at work too often for my own good and his strategy is one of the best.
Knowing when to pop boom is of the essence in this game.
I therefore support his motion.

Offline binTravkin

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #181 on: June 13, 2015, 01:10:34 PM »
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If you pop boom only to work 2-1-1 tiles, I think the synergy could be better. Which is why I'm usually not that in a hurry with booming. Efficient mineral-related infrastructure is a cornerstone and I trade a condenser for half a borehole any time. Instead of working 2-1-1, it's way better to put a crawler on forest.
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allow you not to juggle workers and crawlers in search for 2 nuts.
If a forest to crawl exists, you don't work 2-1-1 if popboomed, but a forest.
And you don't have to juggle if you build a condenser.
The math goes as follows:
Base food: 3
Condenser food: 4
Each forest tile food: 1
So, with 1 condenser you only need one other tile that produces > 1 food and several of our bases have them in form of monoliths.
With a single crawler, food becomes non-issue as it can be set to crawl the condenser and thus free extra citizen to produce 1-2-1.

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In short, early pop boom requires you to have better terra infrastructure (condensers, farms, kelp farms)
Most of our bases either have enough forest to work for 7 pop, or will shortly.
In fact, our formers are nearly out of work, clearing fungus, building mines on rocky tiles.
And we only need 1 condenser per base to get to pop 7.

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facilities (creches, everything drone related)
We only really need Creches and they are not that expensive at 50 minerals (rectanks & reccomms are 40 each and we have them).
Once boom starts, building a holo theatre will be quick due to increased minerals.

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I hate holo-theaters and wait with them until late mid-game. They cost 3 maintenance
This is the same as disussion as we had earlier - reccomms or not.
You have to factor in what you get for the expense.
If you count the extra energy you get from the citizens they allow, they cost 1 at most.
Also, they cost half the cost of tree farms while producing the same psych benefit and a drone reduction of -2 on top of that.
If we're not relying on the forests for food as in case with condensers, it's better, cheaper and earlier.
We're also not going to run much econ allocation, so tree farm econ bonus changes little in equation.

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then tree farms
This is only possible after you get EE + some turns until you build/rush them.
So, you're only delaying something you would do anyway, which means, unless you offset it somehow (like, with ICS, which we're not doing), losing time.

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And when we get to the WP/EE, I strongly recommend to engage all our formers in building boreholes within 2-3 turns. Condensers can wait, not because they're bad but because they're not boreholes.
If you get WP significantly sooner than EE, as is possible in our case, condensers are the better type of improvement, because they allow to popboom sooner, with less investment in infrastructure and bypass the nutrient limit, which means you are also arriving at tree farms faster due to increased production (and likely tech).
That is, with exception of mineral/energy bonus tiles, which can and should still be boreholed, but of which we have none.
Boreholes are useless until EE except for the mentioned bonus tiles.

You can ICS as it is stronger than vertical growth, but not in our case, as we're out of land.
WP fixes that too by allowing raise land option early.

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The same goes for sea formers and kelp farms - sure they're neat, but when you build sea formers, you don't build land formers and crawlers, and this is the part when you behave sub-optimum.
Kelp spreads, so you only need very few sea formers to get the ball rolling.
And you need none if you build WP as condensers are better (kelp does not bypass nutrient limit).

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Building crawlers and thanks to them building nodes faster will be more efficient in my opinion.
A childrens creche costs 50 minerals and allows us to get 3 extra workers in 3 turns with some psych investment.
Each worker would produce 2 minerals and 1 energy as a bare minimum.
Each crawler costs 30 minerals and will produce 2 minerals until we get EE.
So 3 crawlers cost almost double while producing only the mineral equivalent and are much longer to build.
And we don't have IA yet.

In any case it's not popboom vs crawlers because they are not mutually exclusive.
To popboom past 7 we need IA.
And as per your strategy, even crawlers first strategy would eventually popboom.
The alternative is to crawl + ICS, neither of which is possible at the moment and ICS can be enabled by WP even if we don't popboom in the end.

In any other game I'd say go full ICS and just wait until you get IA, then crawlers + PTS + more ICS ad infinitum.
However, this requires land which we don't have.
To be able to ICS soon, we need WP, which also enables us to popboom, should we choose so.

We only have one real growth option at the moment - conquest, and conquest is slow, limited and unreliable.
Popboom can be enabled either by WP soon or by IA+EE some time later.
ICS can be enabled by WP soon.

So, WP enables us to do either popboom or ICS or both and do it soon.
And it will help us significantly even if we decide to do neither.

EDIT: I also don't argue about delaying IA. I actually drew up a plan in previous page, how to increase chance of getting it sooner. It may include running 90-100% econ but there's a good reason for it. Also, I see no problem running 100% econ for a couple of turns after we get IA. It could even be used to rush first crawlers.

EDIT2:
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Knowing when to pop boom is of the essence in this game.
Exactly.
And the rule is not "only after treefarms".
It's just the most common situation that ends up happening.
I think the general rule is "as soon as feasible and has better ROI than other options", which does not tie popboom to anything specific apart from having the prerequisites to enable it and which for us is if/after we get WP.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:48:11 PM by binTravkin »

Offline Kirov

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2015, 01:57:01 PM »
A few observations:

- the second Hive base is at (122,6), according to base grid. So he's overrun in a moment and we get space for 4-5 bases more

- instead of cashing probes, we can use them to provoke Lal into war; this will save us money for Flex and save integrity loss. And of course, give us space to expand. On the top of that, we can squeeze in 2-3 bases into our territory (S and SE from GoP) even now

- remember to move the worm at (115,15) into fungus, the unit is supported by Lucky Autumn and is eating support minerals now

- Morgan started WP within the past 5 years. Usually AI takes forever to build Projects so quite likely we have still ca 20 turns (although you never know for sure)

- and if he does get it, we can find him and pay him a visit; we need to do something with our army anyway; it can't sit idle and disband is waste

- I say right now we should switch to full Labs and see what the next tech is (in one turn).; if it's IA, then we just build crawlers everywhere for some time

@binTravkin - we still have time to discuss further development, no worry. When pondering strategy, I don't bring out my calculator but rather consider what I can do and what I can get from the situation. A few sea formers are always useful, so no problem with that. I can't say our formers are out of work, in fact we have too few of them - we want a handful mines on rocky so they can be fully operational with EE (besides, mines are safe place to put crawlers as sometimes you run out of forests to crawl).

And when it comes to advanced terraforming... I think condensers are great, yes, and yet I find myself building 2-3 of them per game. The borehole is quite simply the improvement. Everything is better with a borehole. And useless as they are before EE, you love WP precisely so that you can pre-build boreholes. When you get EE and suddenly 6-7 boreholes come fully online, in addition to rocky/mines... This is a turn advantage to beat all the other turn advantages. You throw even more formers and crawlers at your problems and when EnvEcon steps in, you have 8-10 boreholes (before anyone else has his first) and suddenly tree farms take 5-8 turns to build. These are actual numbers I have from our current game with Bodi.

Offline binTravkin

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2015, 02:08:20 PM »
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I can't say our formers are out of work, in fact we have too few of them - we want a handful mines on rocky so they can be fully operational with EE (besides, mines are safe place to put crawlers as sometimes you run out of forests to crawl).
Remember that it's tech stagnation, blind research, we don't have IA yet and have trouble getting there and that WP speeds up terraform by 50%.
EE is 30 MY away, that being an optimistic estimate.

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And useless as they are before EE, you love WP precisely so that you can pre-build boreholes.
In a usual game, yes.
As I already explained this is not a usual game and outlined a strategy to use WP to our benefit for early popboom or resuming of ICS.
If we wait for EE, boreholes are a good 30 MY away from now, same for ICS and popboom some 50 MY.
If we get WP, we can popboom or ICS in 15 MY and have boreholes pre-built once we arrive to EE as WP not only enables them, but speeds up terraform by 50%.

I'm not questioning the logic behind boreholes or treefarms, but the problem is, they are (otherwise) so far future, I just don't see how they can be an argument against building WP now, especially as WP enables them now and speeds up their production by a third.

Also, pre-building is only a superior strategy to building something useful, if the alternative costs are less.
If building a condenser gives us +6 minerals (due to being able to popboom and max out pop) in 15 turns, it is better than a borehole in 30 turns, as it starts repaying itself sooner and the return is not that much different.

By the time we get to EE (at least 30 MY from now), we can:
1. Build WP (in 10 MY)
2. Popboom (starting from 15 MY from now, probably for 3-4 turns, then stop, then repeat either shortly or after EE) or raise land and resume ICS.
3. Build boreholes (starting from 15-20 MY from now) and have them pre-built by the time we arrive at EE.

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- I say right now we should switch to full Labs and see what the next tech is (in one turn).; if it's IA, then we just build crawlers everywhere for some time
To see what next tech is, we only need to switch to 10% labs.
Switching to 100% will mean that we also instantly finish it, which means that, if it's not IA, we need to wait full tech "cycle" for next chance to get IA.
Here's what I wrote previously on this:
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On tech - if it's not set by game at the moment, we need to have it set it first, so we see, what it is.
This can be achieved by setting 10% labs at the end of this turn and checking F2 at the start of next turn.
If its yellow, then switch back to full labs and get it ASAP.
If its green - trade with Lal (and set 100% econ allocation if not enough credits).
If its anything else - set labs to 0%, infiltrate and see if Yang has it. E.g. Yang may not have anything from "Discover" that we don't already posess, thus making probing not worthwhile.
Basically, delay the discovery of this tech until we get it to switch to "Build", if possible, as then we would most likely get IA. Gene Slicing is also possible, which is also a good tech.

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- Morgan started WP within the past 5 years. Usually AI takes forever to build Projects so quite likely we have still ca 20 turns (although you never know for sure)
Probably not this time. University built Virtual World quite quickly. Counting on AI fooling around is very risky.

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it can't sit idle and disband is waste
If it turns out we're alone (w Yang & PKs) on a continent and Morgan is on the other side of an ocean, disbanding will pay for itself in half the turns of unit cost (disbanding nets half cost, support costs 1 min/turn).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 02:27:12 PM by binTravkin »

Offline Kirov

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2015, 02:25:12 PM »
I didn't say anything bad about the WP, quite the contrary. All right, let's do it. Then we need more formers anyway and I will want to assign a few of them to drilling.

However, please leave 1-2 probe teams, we really want that war with PK soon and I really want that Flexibility of his. Preparations to pop-boom or not, we need to send out 3-4 boats, preferably probe ones. We need already to think about future conflicts (yes, I'm for the 'Conquest' option) and we can already think about excuses for them because I'm a sensitive type and I like to be the good guy in the story.

Offline binTravkin

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2015, 02:30:47 PM »
I think we will build probes anyway as they are useful both for probing and disbanding. Excellent dual-use technology. :)

As for killing PKs - perhaps lets finish Hive first.
That way we also gain some commerce cash from PKs.

Anyways, next 5 turns are with Vishniac.
During those turns we should come clear as to what our next tech is and whether we buy D:Flex from PKs, which would need to be done if next tech is explore one, just to switch techs to build.

Offline Mart

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #186 on: June 13, 2015, 02:39:44 PM »
...
- Morgan started WP within the past 5 years. Usually AI takes forever to build Projects so quite likely we have still ca 20 turns (although you never know for sure)
2184 to be exact. And yes, Morgan is quite dangerous. He may well have infrastructure to be able to build fairly quickly. AI can on occasion rush buy an SP, and he has usually more EC.

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- I say right now we should switch to full Labs and see what the next tech is (in one turn).; if it's IA, then we just build crawlers everywhere for some time
From color of the bar, we can see what that tech can be. And by probing Yang and buying Doc Flexibility from Lal we can possibly switch it to yellow (Build). In that case possible are:
- Industrial Automation
- Adaptive Economics (at least we get PEG SP option)
- Gene Splicing

So it is better to accumulate EC before we flip the bar to yellow color. Now it is not.

Offline Vishniac

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #187 on: June 13, 2015, 06:50:59 PM »
Here we are!
Not all good, some defeats, but we're advancing towards our goals.

2186
Artillery bombardment + rover destroys Hive infantry near Mindworm Pass. Rover upgraded disciplined.
Mindworms to fungus.
Scout hunting.
Initiated The Weather Paradigm at The Pines (32 turns).
Labs 80% ! (more would see us lose ECs). Enough procrastinating, we can’t forever for techs.

2187
3 forests expanding
Doctrine Flexibility.  Change probe to skimship probe at Children of Earth.
Scout hunts and kills mindworm (20EC)
Hive former has achieved the road to the Hive then dies (very green laser becomes green).

2188
Our worms advancing on Hive territory.
Formers building roads towards Lal
Defensive rover moved to block any probe by Lal.

2189
First probe team built.
Scout popped a pod built got a worm…
Worm spies what’s inside The Hive: 2 synth-sentinels (green 100% and green 80%) laser (disciplined 90%, green 80%) et the AA
We lost a worm attacking with 4vs2 odds against a damaged laser infantry…

2190
We lost the scout to the worm attack (I could swear the worm wasn’t so mature last turn)
Hive infiltrated! 2 probes ready to attack next turn:(steal tech? Hes only has Doc:Loyalty but next is in 5 turns / steal ECs? He has 96ECS
Bombardment continues on Hive and the synthmetal blocking us.

2191
The synthmetal won’t block us anymore: he attacked a 1-2-2 and died.
Forest expanding
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 probe teams have just been built and can be used or cashed for WP / 2 others are ready at Thorny Vineyard / My idea for the 2 formers near The Hive is to forest the road besides the base, to put defenders and to use later the infantry bonus to attack.
Miriam is now #1 in military and population.
"Weapons of mass destruction are just that: weapons, tools to achieve a goal of dominance. And who’s going to call their use 'atrocity' when the school books will have been rewritten?”
Spartan Major Julian Dorn

Offline Kirov

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #188 on: June 13, 2015, 07:00:40 PM »
This doesn't sound bad, losses to worms and despite better odds are inevitable. Don't fear to upload your turn, valiant warrior! We're ready to take it on. :)

Offline Vishniac

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #189 on: June 13, 2015, 07:09:48 PM »
Ah, yeah, I forgot that...

Since I agreed fully to your and Bodissey's thinking, you should be ready to implement your (our!) policy.  :)
"Weapons of mass destruction are just that: weapons, tools to achieve a goal of dominance. And who’s going to call their use 'atrocity' when the school books will have been rewritten?”
Spartan Major Julian Dorn

Offline Kirov

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #190 on: June 13, 2015, 07:13:33 PM »
Ouch! I didn't expect so many units at Yang's HQ. With his Perimeter Defense, this is going to take forever. I'm afraid we need more artillery...

Offline Kirov

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #191 on: June 13, 2015, 07:37:29 PM »
Does anyone know for sure if you can't sabotage faction-wide buildings? Because I believe you can't.

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Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #192 on: June 13, 2015, 07:38:18 PM »
Not special ability ones, no, I don't think so.

Offline Mart

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2015, 07:39:54 PM »
So Yang has 3 bases - what was most probably expected from what we have seen so far.

How about checking with Santiago for tech trades? She does have Nonlinear Math.

Offline binTravkin

Re: Alpha Centauri 2 Forum Community Succession Game
« Reply #194 on: June 13, 2015, 07:40:26 PM »
Try it. I think it is possible.
Because they are not "ghost" facilities.
E.g., when conquering University bases, you can get lucky and capture the Network Node intact.

 

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