Cruiser vs. Foil

[Mart]

This is something, that can be considered for modding.
Like 10 years ago, on Apolyton, there was a mod created and presented: Aldebaran. The last (never finished) version was Aldebaran 2.
Link
In there, foils and cruisers were "switched" with places. Cruisers were first in a lower tech, while foil was coming later. Cruisers were slower, foils faster.

Let's consider speed:

Cruiser can be considered a standard hull ship. Typical speeds go to around 30 knots. Destroyers, which are lighter ships, could go to maybe 40 knots, with a record for a French class 45 knots.

Foils, let us consider Russian Zubr-class, 55 knots (sustained) top 65 knots?

And what was first in our history?
Ironclad is like 1860.
Foil according to wikipedia, first was a small one built in 1909.

Any thoughts on that?
SMACX graphics suggests strongly, that we have foils in-game of the kind like Zubr-class. Shouldn't cruiser-foil be in SMAC the way it is in Aldebaran mod?

[Geo]

IRL, hulls are still prefered over foils because they're more resistant to foul weather.
Once waves become to high, foils need to stay in port.

[ete]

I remember an early screenshot showing foils on land, which also makes sense (though possibly not over rocky ground?). I think if the game was to be significantly redesigned foils and cruisers should be differentiated better, but not necessarily swapped.

[The Odor]

I remember when in a game in SMAC i ended up with a foil ship in a land base. It was initially a coastal base, but nearby was a pod earthquake, and raised the altitude level of that base...

[gwillybj]

I have them swapped in my alphax.txt, just as Mart described. It just feels right to me

[Geo]

To me, the SMAC(X) foil graphic looks more to a hovercraft then a (hydro)foil. What with the bottom 'skirt' the design shows.

[Mart]

IRL, hulls are still prefered over foils because they're more resistant to foul weather.
Once waves become to high, foils need to stay in port.

And maybe this is the reason they made it slower in the game. Overall, hull based ships can travel almost all the time, while foils much more often need to wait to travel further.

I remember an early screenshot showing foils on land, which also makes sense (though possibly not over rocky ground?). I think if the game was to be significantly redesigned foils and cruisers should be differentiated better, but not necessarily swapped.

I wonder, if they also, in regard to foul weather, planned to limit foil chassis tile access. They might move on shelf water tiles only, where one could assume less large waves. On land, maybe they planned only on flat tiles? And so, foils were kinda galleys or triremes in SMAC, but finally they resigned from allowing them to move over land.
For better representation of foils, we would need something like that - game engine capable to move foils on limited water tiles and limited land tiles.

I have them swapped in my alphax.txt, just as Mart described. It just feels right to me

and from Apolyton, smacksim:

#CHASSIS
...
Foil: Moves 7 instead of 4. Note, appears later than Cruiser.
Cruiser: Moves 5 instead of 6. Cost reduced to factor 4 instead of 6.
...

We can still change some of chassis parameters to mod our way of cruiser/foil

from Aldebaran alphax.txt:

; Names..., Speed, Triad, Range, Cargo, Cost, Preq, ...Large names
...
; Speed   = # of moves
; Triad   = Movement (0=Land 1=Sea 2=Air)
; Range   = Range in turns from base (air units only)
; Missile = Chassis is a "missile" (destroyed after attacking)
; Cargo   = # units transported (multiply by reactor rating)
; Cost    = Cost factor of chassis type (normally equal to speed)
...
#CHASSIS
...
Foil,M1,      Skimship,M1,   Hoverboat,M1,   Coastal,M1,   7, 1, 0, 0, 2, 4, AdapDoc,  Megafoil,M1,       Superfoil,M1,
Cruiser,M1,   Destroyer,M1,  Cutter,M1,      Gunboat,M1,   5, 1, 0, 0, 4, 4, Industs,  Battleship,M1,     Monitor,M1,
...

original alphax:

Foil,M1,      Skimship,M1,   Hoverboat,M1,   Coastal,M1,   4, 1, 0, 0, 2, 4, DocFlex,  Megafoil,M1,       Superfoil,M1,
Cruiser,M1,   Destroyer,M1,  Cutter,M1,      Gunboat,M1,   6, 1, 0, 0, 4, 6, DocInit,  Battleship,M1,     Monitor,M1,

Practically only 3 parameters can be adjusted: speed, cargo, cost.

Let's compare them

foil		speed	cargo	cost
original		4	2	4
Aldebaran		7	2	4

cruiser		speed	cargo	cost
original		6	4	6
Aldebaran		5	4	4

These changes are not much, but the major difference is small cost compared to speed for the new foil, 7 speed for cost of 4. They new foil have less transport capability and that may compensate part of it. And cruiser is the other way around, speed 5 for cost of 4.
These changes seem to me very reasonable, and when at first I played Aldebaran, it felt weird, but then I started to like this arrangement.

Can it be made more like in our technology, steel hull cruisers and hover vessels?
If we cannot differentiate water tiles or land tiles for that, maybe restricting cargo more?
So this new foil (would be hover vessel) comes later in the tech tree. It is special unit - faster, but can carry less cargo and is more expensive for its larger speed. In the game, it seems to me, that speed is much more crucial parameter than cargo.

hull type		speed	cargo	cost	tech tree
cruiser		5	4	4	early
hoovercraft		8	1	8	later

 

To me, the SMAC(X) foil graphic looks more to a hovercraft then a (hydro)foil. What with the bottom 'skirt' the design shows.

Yes, I wonder why they named it foil? Maybe some people call hovercrafts foils?

[Geo]

Yes, I wonder why they named it foil? Maybe some people call hovercrafts foils?

In any case, this gives you an option for an extra type of maritime vessel: the hydrofoil with the graphic of a cruiser. The current 'foil' graphic could be used for a hovercraft type of vessel.

[Mart]

you mean, to have a third type of sea type hull?

That would be interesting, but we either replace one, or the game engine must be able to take one more chassis type.

[Geo]

Yes.
Hovercraft (foil graphic), uses maybe the gravship chassis (isn't used much anyway because it comes so late in the game)
Cruiser (cruiser graphic), your classic naval hull.
Hydrofoil (cruiser graphic + ability graphic that shows thoses waves underneath the hull). Just to make the difference clear to the user/player.

I don't know out of my head which abilities have a graphic linked to them, but maybe a useful one can be 'hard defined' and have its .cvr file renamed so it fits as a unique hydrofoil ability. Nano fuel cells ability or something.

[Mart]

Gravships are fitting the three air units, copters have 1 turn fuel, needlejets 2 turns, and gravships can be outside bases indefinitely. For modding, I would bring them earlier in the tech tree.

We lack capability to add a chassis type.
Hovertanks are also quite useful, they come late in the game, but their ability to move through rough terrain is something worth having, not to mention cool chassis graphics.
Right, they might change the chassis type name to foil, so it would be easier to differentiate with hoovertank.

[Geo]

I didn't realize we're limited to the current eight(?) chassis.
To me, the gravship chassis simplifies the military part too much in the late game. It is my prefered chassis type to use early with limited movement capacity. So using it as a hovercraft would fit the bill well for me. And best of all, it isn't affected the Maritime Control Center.

[Mart]

As far as I know, no attempts to add chassis types were successful, unles there is such way. It looks like heavily hardcoded with additional capabilities, caviar files.
Tough decision to replace gravship for me. I like early game, but I would happily see well balanced late game.
So you would keep air domain for such hoovercraft? It would have movement on land and sea in that case. But what with the game applying air benefits/penalties for it?

[Buster's Uncle]

There's always the option of adding something to units.pcx - provided turning and updating don't matter...

[Geo]

So you would keep air domain for such hoovercraft? It would have movement on land and sea in that case. But what with the game applying air benefits/penalties for it?

Been too long since I played a SMACX game. Don't know if non-SAM units can attack gravships. Or if it benefits from say nanocells or the Cloudbase Academy.
If those air benefits apply, and if possible, I'd put it solely on the naval domain then.