SMAC/X and affinities

[BlaneckW]

Should laws and political methods be "polluted with" (i.e. based on) it?

No, they should be based on circumstances.

So you think Purity/Harmony/Supremacy (which are also ideologies, much as are the ones under discussion) are delusions?

That much is obvious.  You should do whatever is best at the moment.

[lifehole]

Gosh, chances are you guys have put more thought into arguing about the affinities than the devs ever even put into the affinities.

[BlaneckW]

Gosh, chances are you guys have put more thought into arguing about the affinities than the devs ever even put into the affinities.

It would be hard not to, even just in passing.  That's all I did before the psichi declared she needed instruction on how things and ideas become differentiated, which I assented to give.  I have great pity for the unitarian peoples and help if I can.

[Green1]

Gosh, chances are you guys have put more thought into arguing about the affinities than the devs ever even put into the affinities.

War gamers are amongst the most hardcore and anal of nerdz. While they have more intelligence than the dreaded WoW nerd and more cooth and social adjustment than a MOBA nerd, a wargamer nerd will argue the small minutia of every single thing till the cows come home.

...and looking at BE, if I am to believe the wargamer nerdz, BE has some issues. But I still have not played it yet. Nor do I trust a lot of CFC bittervet Deity "experts". Some things I need to see myself. I am waiting on a first patch and see where they take it. The vanilla versions of all Civs, even 4, are usually mediocre or not as good as when the first patch or expac rolls around.

[Yitzi]

Should laws and political methods be "polluted with" (i.e. based on) it?

No, they should be based on circumstances.

That is also an ideology.  Should it influence laws and political methods?

So you think Purity/Harmony/Supremacy (which are also ideologies, much as are the ones under discussion) are delusions?

That much is obvious.  You should do whatever is best at the moment.

Ok, so you'd take the "forget these affinities, just do whatever's best at the moment" approach.

However, the SMAC/X leaders are more ideological, and won't take your approach.  Thus, we can discuss which approach they would follow.  Correct?

[BlaneckW]

That is also an ideology.  Should it influence laws and political methods?

You are asking if circumstances, i.e. reality should influence law?  If so, Yang and I agree with you.

[Yitzi]

That is also an ideology.  Should it influence laws and political methods?

You are asking if circumstances, i.e. reality should influence law?

No, I am asking whether the belief "reality should influence law" should influence law by allowing reality to influence law.

Also, by what basis do you speak for  ?

[BlaneckW]

No, I am asking whether the belief "reality should influence law" should influence law by allowing reality to influence law.

You are asking whether reality should influence law.  Keep repeating it, maybe it will bestow sanity.

[BlaneckW]

Also, by what basis do you speak for  ?

I read his book.
http://ctext.org/shang-jun-shu/reform-of-the-law

Gong sun Yang said: "There is more than one way to govern the world and there is no necessity to imitate antiquity, in order to take appropriate measures for the state.' Tang and Wu succeeded in attaining supremacy without following antiquity, and as for the downfall of Yin and Xia - they were ruined without rites having been altered. Consequently, those who acted counter to antiquity do not necessarily deserve blame, nor do those who followed established rites merit much praise. Let Your Highness not hesitate."

Duke Xiao said: "Excellent ! I have heard it said that in poor country districts, much is thought strange, and that in village schools there are many debates. What the foolish laugh about, the wise are sad about; the joy of a madman is the sorrow of a man of talent. One should, in one's plans, be directed by the needs of the times - I have no doubts about it."

[Othniel]

From a game perspective it is very easy to view the affinities as military doctrines rather than social or political because in game that is what they most affect.

Harmony is definitely a Green ideology as it focuses on the importance of the health of the biosphere to human well-being, but it also infers other truths with its military doctrines. The upgrades show units adapted to fight alone (bonuses to fighting alone, pillaging without costing movement) , using the environment to their advantage (bonuses to fighting in miasma, no terrain-type penalties)  or cause harm upon death(20 damage when perishing). They prefer to engage in indirect warfare, relying on things like the Miasma inducer and the siege wurm calling device. Its affinity levels paint a picture of wilderness survival as well, by becoming part of the land. Miasma hurts less, to actually helping units. Aggression with aliens reduces faster (think about why you'd need that). Far more interesting is how they affect architecture and what buildings you get when you pursue Harmony. Xenofuel Plant, Xenonursery, Xeno Sanctuary, Biofactory, Growlab, Molecular Forge and Progenitor Garden all require harmony levels. Most of these are about using natural resources more effectively, including oil, which again speaks to it as a Green Ideology. Others are powerful food buildings, which allows them to avoid farming tech. Quests seem to be about self-sufficiency and environmental preservation. What I find interesting is the self-sufficiency aspect of Harmony, as it is a huge part of it that is being ignored, but also because it allows individuals to freely settle, apart from controlled government cities. You could end up with people having their own cabins in the woods and not needing any type of  special protection. There are also religious aspects, but I would need to gather quotes to show that.

I'd like to break down Supremacy and Purity in similar ways because I do think it shows the ideological and practical aspects of affinity. I'd also like to go into the quotes about each one. I think by understanding a complete in-game picture its easier to see who could fit where in Beyond Earth when removed from Planet's conditions. I think this would satisfy both BlaneckW and Yitizi's approach to the games.

[Yitzi]

Also, by what basis do you speak for  ?

I read his book.
http://ctext.org/shang-jun-shu/reform-of-the-law

Gong sun Yang said: "There is more than one way to govern the world and there is no necessity to imitate antiquity, in order to take appropriate measures for the state.' Tang and Wu succeeded in attaining supremacy without following antiquity, and as for the downfall of Yin and Xia - they were ruined without rites having been altered. Consequently, those who acted counter to antiquity do not necessarily deserve blame, nor do those who followed established rites merit much praise. Let Your Highness not hesitate."

Duke Xiao said: "Excellent ! I have heard it said that in poor country districts, much is thought strange, and that in village schools there are many debates. What the foolish laugh about, the wise are sad about; the joy of a madman is the sorrow of a man of talent. One should, in one's plans, be directed by the needs of the times - I have no doubts about it."

That's not exactly the same person as  ...it also doesn't have the same anti-ideological position you're saying.

[BlaneckW]

That's not exactly the same person as  ...

Legalist Sheng-Ji Yang is based on Legalist Shang Yang.

[Yitzi]

That's not exactly the same person as  ...

Legalist Sheng-Ji Yang is based on Legalist Shang Yang.

But that doesn't mean he's identical in all ways...and even the one you quoted doesn't show the "anything not immediately practical is worthless" approach that you are claiming.

[BlaneckW]

But that doesn't mean he's identical in all ways...and even the one you quoted doesn't show the "anything not immediately practical is worthless" approach that you are claiming.

I'm alright with long-term practicalities.

[Yitzi]

But that doesn't mean he's identical in all ways...and even the one you quoted doesn't show the "anything not immediately practical is worthless" approach that you are claiming.

I'm alright with long-term practicalities.

Okay, in that case,  is Supremacy because his long-term practical focus is to ditch the weakness of flesh, even if it takes him a while to get the necessary tech.