Author Topic: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)  (Read 2716 times)

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Offline Green1

While this is first and foremost a 4x science fiction computer wargaming board, I do feel a mention of what is happening in the world of Dungeons and Dragons has some merit. Since I have reappeared from my travels for a bit, I thought that I would subject you nerds to some of my thoughts.

Let me take you back to 2008. Card game designer Wizards of the Coast had bought Dungeons and Dragons from the now defunct TSR and had successfully updated the archaic rules (some of which dated to the 1970s!) into a much more coherent THIRD EDITION many years earlier. But, in 2007 and 2008 with many books out, sales were slumping. Wizards then released the FOURTH EDITION of Dungeons and Dragons.

It started a geek civil war!

FOURTH EDITION was radically balanced in an attempt to improve on many of the shortcomings that plagued earlier editions. 4e developed powers for each class, ending the superiority known on RPG forums known as "CoDzilla" or "play a cleric, druid, or wizard or go home." It added the most comprehensive battle mat rules that were playable to date in any edition. It greatly buffed low level character survivability with fairly powerful "at will" abilities akin to weapons and gave all classes, even the lowly fighter had lists of powers akin to spells. All classes had pages and pages of these powers divide to levels. Some were "daily powers", others could be used once per encounter. Monster creation was greatly simplified. In addition, some monsters were "minions" and had 1 hitpoint. Others were "solos" to be akin to a "boss fight" in many popular MMOs. No need to always have a Cleric as everyone had some hels in the form of "healing surges".

BUT... there was a problem!

The lists of powers were long! You almost had to print out cards like a card game to keep track! Everything was TOO balanced. The powers as listed did not allow well for creative thinking. FOUTH EDITION had turned the game into a minis battle game with power cards and sanitized "skill challenges" with success and failure rolls in the place of roleplaying. On top of that, the system was "mathy" with numerous little plus and minus modifiers to everything. Character generation took an enormous time. Worse, characters were divided into leaders, defenders, controllers, and strikers. Not a striker? You are not pulling damage even if you are a bad boy with a great sword and full plate.

The great geek schism occurred.

Piazo Publishing who had a long history writing articles and material in support of previous editions of the game saw an opportunity. Using open source agreements from THIRD EDITION, they created Pathfinder. Geeks loving their overpowered clerics and wizards flocked to Piazo's banner and abandoned Wizards of the Coast in droves. Pathfinder was basically 3e rules but with some of the more questionable stuff taken out. Towards the end of 4e's cycle, Pathfinder out sold 4e.

Here is where we come to 5th Edition of Dungeons and Dragons NEXT. I have happened to acquire a copy of the Player's Handbook and will give you my thoughts.

The first thing I always look at before I delve into arcane mechanics whenever I look at a RPG is character creation. I think they nailed it here. the creation process reminds me a lot of the old SECOND EDITION without weird tables like "THAC0", differing experience tables, or crappy dual class rules.

Characters

- Ability scores are squished. It is hard to get anything above a 20 in any score, just like 2e. Compare with 3e where scores of 70+ were possible in epic level.

- Level cap is (currently) at 20. This differs from 4th edition where level cap was at 30. However, this could change in the future. Both second and third edition had high level books later in the life cycle.

-Elemental resistance as a number is gone! From 3rd and 4th edition, you may remember some creatures got a certain number taken off any damage of a certain type. Now, you just have straight resistance or vulnerability. Resistance gives half damage to type. Vulnerability means double damage.

- Armor class is lower. It is very possible for a grunt orc to hit your 19th level hero without natural 20s, though it would take squads of them to take you out.

- Very 2eish style. You select a race, class, class archetype, and background. Unlike 3e, you get your skills from this as well instead of intelligence score. Much like 4e, the list of skills is much smaller. Interesting change is crafting is back, but it is a proficiency much like second edition handled it. More specifically, a "tool proficiency". Even open locks is a proficiency and not a skill. Just a dexterity check.

- Speaking of skills and how few there are, everything is now an ability check. But, the difficulty does not get to insane levels like previous editions.

- Character generation took me about half the time.

- Feats are OPTIONAL. I think only the human gets one off the bat. Not that I miss feats. Most of them in 4e and 3e were so minor with a few notable exceptions. Most were just a plus here or there. But, if you do take one you must forgo an ability increase. Fortunately, the feats listed are along the same lines of power as the better class features and may be worth it.

- Fighters get "expertise dice" to spend. They are the only class to keep the 4th edition power "second wind" which serves as a minor heal. But, in fairness, they needed it.

- Most classic 3e/2e spells are back in glory.

- Cantrips are much more powerful than in 3e and are, like was is 4th, at will.

Game mechanics

- The biggest and best change is the advantage/ disadvantage mechanic. Gone are the days of adding and subtracting multiple modifiers based on situations. Instead, you roll 2 d20s. If at advantage, take the highest. If at disadvantage, lowest.

- Marking, battlefield control, and detailed battle grid rules introduced by 4e are gone in favor of a version that could be played in ones head. However, there is a mention of 4eish battle mat rules which will be described in the upcoming Dungeon Masters Guide.

- Low level characters are fragile! Particularly coming from 4e. However, they have more options than their 2e or 3e brethren.

- Combat runs fast. 4e combat could take an hour, but his harkens more back to the old days.

- Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower as either saving throws (3e) or Defenses (4e) are gone! Instead, saving throws are based straight off ability scores.

Final Thoughts

So far, so good. While I am one of the few that defended fourth edition, I welcome the better maths and faster gameplay. Time still remains as it will be November of this year till all three core books are out. I still miss the battle grid options as I like the tactical aspect of DnD. But, I think this will be addressed.

Looking at the current ruleset just in the PHB, though, I think it has enough in it to please even the most hardcore edition war zealots. Even those who still play old school 2e. And healing is needed. While 4e was an interesting game itself, it was too much change and not what DnD was supposed to be. Maybe this is a step to healing or gaining the trust of the common geek.

Now... if only I could find a cool group. But, hasn't that always been an issue with any dnD game?


Offline Buster's Uncle

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Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2014, 06:51:19 AM »
Should this go in Other Games?

Offline Green1

Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 06:57:33 AM »
Should this go in Other Games?


Up to you.

Offline Yitzi

Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 04:21:03 PM »
How well does it handle noncombat?

Offline Green1

Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 08:08:20 PM »
How well does it handle noncombat?

Glad you asked. I probably should have included that.

One of the previous complaints about FOURTH was "skill challenges" that handled non combat situations as a series of successes and failures. That is gone.

The Dungeon Masters Guide is not out yet, so we do not have a complete picture. But, I read that it is very open ended. Non combat seems to be handled mostly through roleplaying. There are social skills like persuasion, intimidation, and others that can be used if the DM feels those skills would be useful to influence a NPC as well as basic charisma checks. But, other than that, these are not codified in the Player's Handbook.

One interesting thing is all the backgrounds that you can select from includes some kind of social benefit. For instance, if your background is that of an acolyte, you (and only you) can stay in a temple and has contact with temple figures for information and support. If you choose a criminal background, you have a criminal underground contact. These backgrounds are not restricted to class.

There are also, of course, standard rules for travel, equipment lists, etc and for the most part are well done. As far as non combat situations developing from that, it depends on the DM. I have known some DMs where merely buying a suit of armor is an hour long role playing experience where the armor smith has his own quirks and motivations. Other DMs would just give you a list and be done with it.

Offline Tuberski

Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 01:08:58 AM »
I played 1st edition and Basic, Expert, etc...

This seems way to... silly.

Offline Buster's Uncle

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Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 01:18:25 AM »
Started out with the Basic Set in 1980 and was the actual founder D&D in my hometown.  At church.

I am moving this to Other Games, having thought it over long enough now...

Offline Tuberski

Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 01:28:42 AM »
My brother came home from the Navy with it in about '81, I believe.

Offline vonbach

Re: Green1's critique of Dungeons and Dragons 5e (also known as NEXT)
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 10:07:59 PM »
I've played it. Its probably the best incarnation of the game so far. Its fast and efficient without being over simplified
and not needlessly complex like Pathfinder.

 

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