Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: BFG on January 20, 2013, 06:08:39 AM

Title: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 20, 2013, 06:08:39 AM
Out of curiosity, has anyone tried to reimplement the two deleted technologies, Inertial Damping and Global Energy Theory?  If so, where did you put them and what bonuses did you assign to them?
(If I had to guess, I'd say the Economic Victory was enabled by Global Energy Theory, and possibly the economic diplomatic proposals.  Not so sure on Inertial Damping...perhaps it was the original home for the Tachyon Field?  Maybe it would be a candidate for adding the Heavy Transport ability back into the game?)


Inertial Damping quote:
"Until now, the battle had been proceeding smoothly. The enemy was outflanked and had been driven from the reactor housing. But against the reactor itself, the matter cannons were strangely ineffective. Rounds simply - stopped - in midair." --Colonel Corazon Santiago, "A Tactical History of Sparta"

Global Energy Theory quote:
"Energy is the currency of the future." --CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Centauri Monopoly"
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Mart on January 20, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
I used empty slots for some new other techs in a mod. They would need to get sound files replaced.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 20, 2013, 06:31:01 PM
Yeah, I suppose that those extra slots (as well as the two undocumented extra slots at the end of the list) could be used in mods...but I was more interested in restoring these two "lost" techs to the vanilla game.
I tend to play a builder-type with Zakharov, and reach the end of the tech tree well before the end of the game.  So for my play style, two more techs is a good thing, even if the value is dubious.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Mart on January 20, 2013, 07:28:26 PM
I have 2 deleted techs and User Technology (before Transcendent Thought) in alphax file not modified. Do you think, there is more than 89 slots?

Have you played with research stagnation? There is also a way, by faction modification, of additional slowing of technology rate.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: gwillybj on January 20, 2013, 09:46:57 PM
Max 89 Techs.

3 ways to slow down research:

Tech Stagnation ON [in game setup]

RESEARCH, -5, [in faction specs: Labs research slowed by 50%. Can be -10 to -50]

Under #RULES in alphax.tech change 100 to any number:
50,      ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard [I don't know the limits]
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 23, 2013, 06:05:49 PM
Max 89 Techs.

3 ways to slow down research:

Tech Stagnation ON [in game setup]

RESEARCH, -5, [in faction specs: Labs research slowed by 50%. Can be -10 to -50]

Under #RULES in alphax.tech change 100 to any number:
50,      ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard [I don't know the limits]

These all have different effects:
-Tech stagnation slows research by 33%, but it also slows the decreasing of tech cost over time (yes, tech cost decreases with time, though this is usually dwarfed by the effects of learning new techs) by 33%.  Essentially, under tech stagnation each turn counts as 2/3 of a turn.
-Giving everyone a RESEARCH penalty will increase the significance of RESEARCH bonuses and penalties (except that penalties that bring the total below -5 are irrelevant).  It will also mean nobody gets any tech for the first 10 turns.  Usually, a better option is to change the Research modifier on the Rules tab in the faction editor.
-Tech discovery rate as a percentage of standard has the simplest effect, merely multiplying tech acquisition.  This can be any value from 0 to 1000.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Mart on January 23, 2013, 06:50:29 PM
And for faction attributes, there are these:

;   RESEARCH    = Free research points per base per turn.
...
;   TECHCOST    = Modifier % for tech research rate.
;                 (e.g. 125 means each discovery costs
;                 125% the usual number of research
;                 points).
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 23, 2013, 07:43:27 PM
I may have misled you guys a little...while it's true I'm interested in having a couple more techs for my University to research, I'm more interested in knowing what Firaxis originally intended for these techs.  I can't help but notice that there's 22 Build and Explore techs but only 21 Conquer and Discover; these two would even the tree out.

Planetary Energy Theory seems to be an obvious place to put Economic Victory, and perhaps some other perks...but what the heck would Inertial Damping have been used for?  Where would you guys put these in the existing tech tree if you were to reenable them?
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 23, 2013, 08:58:55 PM
Planetary Energy Theory seems to be an obvious place to put Economic Victory, and perhaps some other perks...but what the heck would Inertial Damping have been used for?  Where would you guys put these in the existing tech tree if you were to reenable them?

Based on the quote, Inertial Damping probably would have given the tachyon field (it's the same quote.)  I would probably put Planetary Energy Theory as having Planetary Economics and Pre-Sentient Algorithms as a prerequisite, and replacing Planetary Economics in one if not both of the techs that have it as a prerequisite.  (Planetary Energy Theory and Planetary Economics are really essentially the same idea.)

Inertial Damping would require Photon/Wave Mechanics and Unified Field Theory, and replace UFT as a prerequisite for Frictionless Surfaces.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 23, 2013, 09:18:01 PM
Based on the quote, Inertial Damping probably would have given the tachyon field (it's the same quote.)  I would probably put Planetary Energy Theory as having Planetary Economics and Pre-Sentient Algorithms as a prerequisite, and replacing Planetary Economics in one if not both of the techs that have it as a prerequisite.  (Planetary Energy Theory and Planetary Economics are really essentially the same idea.)

Inertial Damping would require Photon/Wave Mechanics and Unified Field Theory, and replace UFT as a prerequisite for Frictionless Surfaces.
Those make sense, again based on the quotes and the current tech tree.  That said, since Planetary Economics and Global Energy Theory are so similar, it may make more sense to replace Global Energy Theory with a technology that would enable Heavy Transport (the only unit option, besides Slow Unit, currently unavailable in the game).  The quote wouldn't match but it would work otherwise.
Either way, I've noticed that the icons for both technologies (as viewed in the PCX file) are duplicates of those for other technologies.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Flygon on January 24, 2013, 01:45:58 AM
...would enable Heavy Transport (the only unit option, besides Slow Unit, currently unavailable in the game).
Unity Foils come with the ability Slow Unit
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 24, 2013, 03:33:01 AM
Unity Foils come with the ability Slow Unit
You're right; I should have phrased that better.  I meant that Heavy Transport and Slow Unit are the only known programmed-in technologies that are not selectable by the player.  (Not that I could imagine anyone WANTING Slow Unit...unless it reduced production cost, I suppose.)
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Kilkakon on January 24, 2013, 03:15:43 PM
That's actually an interesting idea--what would people do if Slow Unit was available and it reduced the cost of the unit?
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 24, 2013, 03:29:47 PM
...Could you manufacture and then later upgrade w/out the ablitity?
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Green1 on January 24, 2013, 03:44:00 PM
Tech stag is fine. I use simular features in other games (like epic for Civ). It is not for everybody, but many times with the default settings in this game, you truly do not get to enjoy units before they are rendered obsolete and ineffective.

Would not fly in some MP games, though. You need it faster or games would last 2 years.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: ete on January 24, 2013, 03:48:05 PM
I wonder if it's possible to have negative ability costs without major changes to the code, if so that would be something to explore.. especially if Slow Unit could make infantry unable to move. Fun for scenarios.

@Techstag: I actually play with significantly boosted research rates usually, because otherwise I often finish games before I've got to reach a lot of the interesting tech.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 24, 2013, 08:32:35 PM
I wonder if it's possible to have negative ability costs without major changes to the code, if so that would be something to explore.. especially if Slow Unit could make infantry unable to move. Fun for scenarios.
Agreed.  In fact, it could even lead (potentially) to a whole new unit type: fixed emplacements.  I could see adding stationary artillery or AAA units throughout one's territory, stationary police or defensive Probe Teams at a base, etc.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Green1 on January 24, 2013, 09:28:30 PM
I wonder if it's possible to have negative ability costs without major changes to the code, if so that would be something to explore.. especially if Slow Unit could make infantry unable to move. Fun for scenarios.
Agreed.  In fact, it could even lead (potentially) to a whole new unit type: fixed emplacements.  I could see adding stationary artillery or AAA units throughout one's territory, stationary police or defensive Probe Teams at a base, etc.

Some of that would be better served by base facilities.

Still, the whole stationary thing brings to mind an obscure trick with Wargame Construction Set for the Commodore 64 in the 80s. One of the scenarios was a fantasy scenario where the ultimate goal was to get into a shrine gaurded by stationary rock-throwning golems. They edited the unit to have zero movement. You had to destroy the golems which were tough and blocked all path to the shrine while they were artillery bombarding you.

Oh god... I feel old.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 24, 2013, 10:37:22 PM
Heh, you've got me beat.  My first game was Dragon Warrior (aka Dragon Quest) for the NES :)

Still, I prefer the idea of units over base facilities, simply because it would play into the game's existing maintenance requirements, would allow unit customization, etc.
It may be possible to set up a duplicate of the Infantry chassis in alphax.txt, and give it zero movement.  I'll have to give that a try...
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 24, 2013, 10:40:21 PM
I wonder if it's possible to have negative ability costs without major changes to the code

It might be possible to do it with minor changes, but it would definitely need changes to the code.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 24, 2013, 10:46:25 PM
It might be possible to do it with minor changes, but it would definitely need changes to the code.
Would it be as simple as adding a new Special Ability Cost Code?  Current defined codes are -7 ... +1; perhaps a +2 could be added that is defined as "reduce cost by 25%" and then assigned to Slow Unit.

Of course, if a person's going to go to that trouble, then it would make sense to explore the addition of new special abilities entirely.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 24, 2013, 10:50:09 PM
This (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2490.0) might be educational - Darsnan knows what he's doing.  Zero movement unit seem to be impossible, sans some code tweaking.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 24, 2013, 10:53:40 PM
This (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2490.0) might be educational - Darsnan knows what he's doing.  Zero movement unit seem to be impossible, sans some code tweaking.

Well, that's unfortunate.  He already tried all 3 approaches I'd thought of.  (I considered modding fungal towers too.)

EDIT: I may still try some things that are unlikely to work, like setting the Triad (ground/sea/air) value to 3 or -1 - when valid values are 0, 1, 2.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Green1 on January 24, 2013, 11:07:28 PM
Well... there is one thing in SMAX that WOULD be pretty cool that is a zero movement "unit" - fungal towers just like BFG mentioned.

Imagine being able to "place" these for extreme green factions like Planet Cult, or my new favorite monster the Antimind. Imagine the AI being able to use this.

Something tells me our resident friendly Cult of Assembly Code high priests Yitzi and Kyrub would probably rule that out, though.

Sweet Jesus mindworm that would be awesome.

Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Lord Avalon on January 25, 2013, 12:02:44 AM
If slow units are cheaper, that could open the door for upgrade abuse.  Personally, the only use I would have for a slow unit would be for a cheaper naval unit intended primarily for coastal defense.  As far as base defense units, would zero movement mean they can't attack?  Because once you get reactor upgrades, you can have better minimal weapons on a defensive unit at no additional min cost, and maybe you want the option of attacking weakened/low defense units besieging your base.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 25, 2013, 12:24:40 AM
Well... there is one thing in SMAX that WOULD be pretty cool that is a zero movement "unit" - fungal towers just like BFG mentioned.

Imagine being able to "place" these for extreme green factions like Planet Cult, or my new favorite monster the Antimind. Imagine the AI being able to use this.

Something tells me our resident friendly Cult of Assembly Code high priests Yitzi and Kyrub would probably rule that out, though.

Sweet Jesus mindworm that would be awesome.

A zero-movement unit seems like it might be doable (if a bit tricky), via a special Chassis code (you'd have to set the cost manually, though).  Keep it in mind for when I start taking requests.  Teaching the AI how to use it would be Kyrub's department, no idea if he'd be able to do it.

I suspect that fungal towers themselves can be made possible right now; just move the tech from Disable to whatever you want it to be.

If slow units are cheaper, that could open the door for upgrade abuse.

Upgrade abuse is already a wide-open door, but with my patch version 1.2 you'll be able to close it if you want.

Quote
As far as base defense units, would zero movement mean they can't attack?

Yes; immobile units with movement points would be quite a bit more difficult, and for multiplayer it might be easiest just to make a cheap unit and make a rule that it can't move outside a base square..
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Kilkakon on January 25, 2013, 12:36:12 AM
From memory, Fungal Towers revert to native ownership after 1 turn. Can still be used to defend a base I suppose.

An immobile base defender could still be ordered to hold in a base square.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Green1 on January 25, 2013, 12:55:09 AM
From memory, Fungal Towers revert to native ownership after 1 turn. Can still be used to defend a base I suppose.

An immobile base defender could still be ordered to hold in a base square.

Precisely! It would be not fun to have to cycle through a fungal tower. Fungal Towers already are a formidable obstacle and have the special ability to grow and spawn worms if surrounded by fungus.

Key is... letting the AI know this is something cool it can do if it has this ability as a "merit". Also, proper placement of something like this. If it is MP only, it will not fly.

However, we are already having issues with placement of boreholes that has Kyrub's undivided attention and a higher priority.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: gwillybj on January 25, 2013, 01:18:32 AM
Unity Foils come with the ability Slow Unit
You're right; I should have phrased that better.  I meant that Heavy Transport and Slow Unit are the only known programmed-in technologies that are not selectable by the player.  (Not that I could imagine anyone WANTING Slow Unit...unless it reduced production cost, I suppose.)
Heavy Transport,        1, Disable,  Heavy,     000100100111, +50% transport capacity

Slow Unit,              0, Disable,  Slow,      000000111111, -1 moves

You need only replace the word Disable in each line with a logical tech (I used Super Tensile Solids for Heavy Transport and Doctrine: Mobility for Slow Unit).
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 25, 2013, 04:33:19 AM
Tech stagnation and other things that slow down research have the effect in most multiplayer games of the game being over before much more than 1/3 of the tech tree has been discovered.  I have played a couple of games, and it is OK if you want to keep things low tech, but it is not my prefered type of game.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 25, 2013, 05:38:11 AM
Tech stagnation and other things that slow down research have the effect in most multiplayer games of the game being over before much more than 1/3 of the tech tree has been discovered.

How does it usually end in that case?  I presume by conquest, but with what units, and against what defense?
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Mart on January 25, 2013, 08:01:21 AM
SMAC was designed as a game promoting offensive play, I remember reading something about it. Maybe even in Vel's strategy guide. The game on small maps would typically end earlier. That can be changed in mods, that would place more emphasis on defensive playstyle. I think civ4 is like that, at least to larger extent.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 25, 2013, 01:12:54 PM
SMAC was designed as a game promoting offensive play, I remember reading something about it. Maybe even in Vel's strategy guide.

I seem to remember reading it too, but don't think it was Vel's strategy guide.  But to say it was designed as a game promoting offensive play, rather than just that it was designed in a manner that unintentionally promoted offensive play, you'd need a source from the developers or similar, and I don't think that exists.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Green1 on January 25, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
Yitzi, I do not think there is a source but rather observation from a forum board somewhere. I do not think there has been an official dev observation on this.

The more modern Civ paradigm seems to be more geared towards siege warfare/ combined arms/ defensive advantage. Civ 4 cranked it up to where you really need artillery or you are not getting to capture any city past a certain point. Civ 5, you need several units to take even the weakest city.

You rarely see one unit take a city in more modern 4x games anymore.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 25, 2013, 05:35:45 PM
Tech stagnation and other things that slow down research have the effect in most multiplayer games of the game being over before much more than 1/3 of the tech tree has been discovered.

How does it usually end in that case?  I presume by conquest, but with what units, and against what defense?
This depends upon map size.  I played two tech stagnation games on the Vets map, which is a fairly large map.  At the end of the game, MMI had just been discovered, and had no effect on the endgame, just to give you an idea of the tech level a the end.

Most of the game was fought with attack 4 or 6 attackers against defense 2 or 3 defenders.  Needlejets came into the mix after they were discovered, but the battles had been raging long before then.

I also played a tech stagnation game on a medium map.  The majority of the game was attack 2 and 4 against defense 2.  On the medium map, Sythetic Fossil Fuels was the last major tech discovery, and it speeded the mop up quite a bit (although I felt the game had already been decided before the discovery).

Both games were completed by conquest, as you expected.  There was a mix of units used: dedicated infantry attackers, dedicated defenders, artillery, and attack speeders.  The attackers used defensive units to mitage counterattack on their positions.  Artillery was primarily used to soften up heavily defended cities with perimeter fences.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 25, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
Most of the game was fought with attack 4 or 6 attackers against defense 2 or 3 defenders.

So that's tier 2-3 attackers against tier 1-2 defenders?  No wonder it was over before the top of the tech tree.  If someone had gone for Silksteel (and air power was nerfed enough that not going for it was not too devastating), the game might have lasted quite a bit longer.

Quote
I also played a tech stagnation game on a medium map.  The majority of the game was attack 2 and 4 against defense 2.  On the medium map, Sythetic Fossil Fuels was the last major tech discovery, and it speeded the mop up quite a bit (although I felt the game had already been decided before the discovery).

So again, tier 1-2 attack against tier 1 defense.  It seems the reason that the game ends earlier is simply that people go for attack techs more than defense techs.  Any idea why that is?
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: ete on January 25, 2013, 07:15:07 PM
Attack techs give larger % bonuses to combat ability, especially early. 2->4, 4->6 against 2->3, 3->4. Even for defending, you really want good level weapons to counterattack. The combat system is designed to give the attacker an advantage generally (though there are plenty of defensive bonuses which counteract it partially), and that's no bad thing in my opinion. Plus I think many attack techs lie on better beelines, while defense ones don't immediately lead to much of importance?
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 25, 2013, 09:05:37 PM
In addition to ete's comments (which I agree), there are several advantages to the attackers:

1. The beeline to synthetic fossil fuels is attractive because of raising the food limit.

2. If a city is well defended (like silksteel D4 defenders and perimeter defense), then you go around it.  If it only has silksteel defenders but no fence, the A6 attackers will clobber them.  At any tier beyond 1, attack strength is somewhat greater than defensive strength.  Eventually, I can bring artillery to weaken heavily defended cities.

3. Attackers have more flexiblility.  I could just take the lightly defended cities, destroy all terraformers and supply crawlers, and then continue to build.  The attacker's production ability is slightly increased, while the defender is ruined by loss of these terraformers, supply crawlers, and the less defended cities. 
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 25, 2013, 09:44:17 PM
Attack techs give larger % bonuses to combat ability, especially early. 2->4, 4->6 against 2->3, 3->4.

True.  On the flip side, defense techs let you take advantage of perimeter defenses, which are a HUGE boost early on.

Quote
Even for defending, you really want good level weapons to counterattack.

True; you essentially want both.  But when trying to defend your own empire rather than conquer someone else's, they're attacking from outside bases so a weaker attack level will still give you parity (or superiority if they didn't get defense as well.)

Quote
The combat system is designed to give the attacker an advantage generally (though there are plenty of defensive bonuses which counteract it partially), and that's no bad thing in my opinion.

It's designed to give the attacker the advantage in the field, but the defender the advantage when defending a properly-defended base.

Quote
Plus I think many attack techs lie on better beelines, while defense ones don't immediately lead to much of importance?

I think the only real examples of that are Missile (A6) and Gatling (A5).

1. The beeline to synthetic fossil fuels is attractive because of raising the food limit.

True, and you'd definitely want that.  But on the flip side, the beeline to silksteel includes ECM, which is fairly strong if you're trying to defend yourself.  Essentially, you're likely to want both.

Quote
2. If a city is well defended (like silksteel D4 defenders and perimeter defense), then you go around it.

And if all bases are well defended?  Or if there are also attack troops there (which might be weaker, but are still good against your weaker defense)?

Quote
Eventually, I can bring artillery to weaken heavily defended cities.

Artillery does cause a bias toward attack...

Quote
3. Attackers have more flexiblility.  I could just take the lightly defended cities, destroy all terraformers and supply crawlers, and then continue to build.  The attacker's production ability is slightly increased, while the defender is ruined by loss of these terraformers, supply crawlers, and the less defended cities.

True...although anything that reduces use of supply crawlers and heavy former use would reduce that substantially.  Still, thanks for something to think about.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: ete on January 25, 2013, 09:55:35 PM
If bases are in all-out defense mode, the attacker can just sit around and blow up terraforming, or focus everything on one base and kill it for a place to recharge. Defenders have no power to force engagements, and the supply mechanics mean that covering each base with enough all out defenders to hold off a focused army is going to cost more than the army will cost the other player by a long way.

As I said before, I think this is a good thing. Making attacks effective and the best defense a strong counter-attack makes for an interesting dynamic game, and reduces the sometimes very long "I have won but have to actually kill them" stage. I LIKE there being very strong offensive lategame units, and believe this was entirely intentional, my objection to 'copters is simply that they're much too cheap for their power.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on January 26, 2013, 12:10:39 AM
If bases are in all-out defense mode, the attacker can just sit around and blow up terraforming, or focus everything on one base and kill it for a place to recharge.
I've found that increasing Base Defense and Defense due to Sensors by 25% apiece helps to balance that a bit better.  And of course, once you have aerial units, setting them to auto defense can help shore up bases suffering from a pinpoint attack.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 26, 2013, 12:23:24 AM
Sensors can be a HUGE help, IF you can defend the sensors.  Sensors and monoliths are the only reason I am still hanging in there on WFOS verses Usurpers.  If you have your formers organized well enough to build sensors under your peripheral bases that are most likely to come under attack first, this is ideal.

Most people do not, so the sensors only last until a unit gets there to destroy them.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 27, 2013, 12:01:46 AM
If bases are in all-out defense mode, the attacker can just sit around and blow up terraforming, or focus everything on one base and kill it for a place to recharge. Defenders have no power to force engagements, and the supply mechanics mean that covering each base with enough all out defenders to hold off a focused army is going to cost more than the army will cost the other player by a long way.

As I said before, I think this is a good thing. Making attacks effective and the best defense a strong counter-attack makes for an interesting dynamic game, and reduces the sometimes very long "I have won but have to actually kill them" stage. I LIKE there being very strong offensive lategame units, and believe this was entirely intentional, my objection to 'copters is simply that they're much too cheap for their power.

The problem isn't really in the lategame, but rather the early midgame; having attacks against bases too strong in the early midgame can make for a game that's essentially cut short.

It occurred to me that the best approach might be to add in a defense module of strength/cost 4 at Advanced Subatomic Theory (perhaps call it Particle Shield), increase the strength (and cost) of Silksteel and Photon Wall by 1, and remove the Probability Sheath (Probability Mechanics will still be an important defensive tech for the Tachyon Field.)

As for copters, I feel that instead of increasing copter cost, it might be better to decrease copter power by decreasing their speed (which copters are extremely dependent on), and help out anti-air defense (since a copter's ability to attack numerous times per round is a lot less useful if the first one reduces it to such low health that another attack will destroy it.)

I've found that increasing Base Defense and Defense due to Sensors by 25% apiece helps to balance that a bit better.  And of course, once you have aerial units, setting them to auto defense can help shore up bases suffering from a pinpoint attack.

All that still does mean a tendency toward attack techs over defense techs, though.

Sensors can be a HUGE help, IF you can defend the sensors.  Sensors and monoliths are the only reason I am still hanging in there on WFOS verses Usurpers.  If you have your formers organized well enough to build sensors under your peripheral bases that are most likely to come under attack first, this is ideal.

Sensors-under-bases are also considered cheap by many.

Quote
Most people do not, so the sensors only last until a unit gets there to destroy them.

Of course, if the sensor is behind the base, that still means that the unit has to go behind the base, which increases the vulnerability of the attack force somewhat.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 27, 2013, 02:21:58 AM
Normally, if you want to get past the early midgame techs before serious combat, then you need to do two things:

1. Don't use tech stagnation or any other tech slowing mechanism.  If you slow down research, of course you will not get very far into the tech tree before serious combat.

2. Space the factions fairly far apart, as is done on the Vet's map.  The earliest I have seen serious combat on the Vet's map is after turn 70, and it is usually even later than that.

I presume if people are using tech stagnation and/or a small map, it is because they want to encourage low tech combat.  So there is nothing to fix; they have achieved what they wanted.


As for the sensor under the base, I do not think this is a cheap tactic all all.  It is very difficult and requires a lot of planning to achieve without greatly slowing down expansion.  So if some does pay the price in terms of rapid expansion to get a sensor under their base, they deserve the benefit.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 27, 2013, 03:31:28 AM
Normally, if you want to get past the early midgame techs before serious combat, then you need to do two things:

You misunderstand.  I have nothing against early combat.  I just want that, if the early midgame is reached without the game ending or being decided (i.e. a builder's game rather than a momentum-based quick game), it shouldn't end until people have gotten well up the tech tree.

This is for people who want lower-tech combat to be possible, without it being decisive.

Quote
As for the sensor under the base, I do not think this is a cheap tactic all all.  It is very difficult and requires a lot of planning to achieve without greatly slowing down expansion.  So if some does pay the price in terms of rapid expansion to get a sensor under their base, they deserve the benefit.

It just seems like something that was not intended to happen when the game was designed.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 27, 2013, 04:14:43 AM
Normally, if you want to get past the early midgame techs before serious combat, then you need to do two things:

You misunderstand.  I have nothing against early combat.  I just want that, if the early midgame is reached without the game ending or being decided (i.e. a builder's game rather than a momentum-based quick game), it shouldn't end until people have gotten well up the tech tree.

This is for people who want lower-tech combat to be possible, without it being decisive.
I wonder that anyone would bother with forcing combat, if they did not expect to gain an advantage.  As I said earlier, someone could indeed survive early combat with heavily fortified cities, but if the defender were using just a passive defense, the attacker could significantly weaker the other player by destroying formers, supply crawlers, and terrain enhancements.

A player should not expect to be able to play a turtle and come out without damage.  A defender must counterattack when opportunity arises to weaken the attackers.  Most attackers have little to no defense; indeed it is quite expensive to make an infantry unit with both good attack and good defense, and it is prohibitly expensive for a speeder. 

I was recently subject to an invasion in one of my games.  My defense was able to slow down the attackers.  But ultimately, it was my counterattacks that were decisive in weakening the invading troups, particularly due to collateral damage, and the fact that unless the invaders can establish a stronghold at a city or monolith, they have no way to fully repair.  If I had turtled-up to only protect my cities, the speeders could have rampaged through my crawlers and formers, rendering the invasion a success even if I untimately destroyed the forces without losing a city.  So I needed to take an active defense, capitalizing on opportunities for counterattack on relatively weak defensive units.  This is part of the richness of the strategy of SMAC, that even on defense, the best strategy involves watching for opportunities for counterstrikes.

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As for the sensor under the base, I do not think this is a cheap tactic all all.  It is very difficult and requires a lot of planning to achieve without greatly slowing down expansion.  So if some does pay the price in terms of rapid expansion to get a sensor under their base, they deserve the benefit.

It just seems like something that was not intended to happen when the game was designed.
It seems to me that since cities benefit from other terrain enhancements such as rivers and jungle and terrain elevation, it is not unreasonable to benefit from sensors as well.  I believe some of the original supplied scenarios had some cities that started with sensors underneath, so I believe the designers did indeed account for this possibility.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 27, 2013, 05:24:35 AM
I wonder that anyone would bother with forcing combat, if they did not expect to gain an advantage.

Expecting to gain an advantage is not the same as it being decisive (i.e. effectively knocks a player out of the game.)

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A player should not expect to be able to play a turtle and come out without damage.  A defender must counterattack when opportunity arises to weaken the attackers.  Most attackers have little to no defense; indeed it is quite expensive to make an infantry unit with both good attack and good defense, and it is prohibitly expensive for a speeder. 

I agree.  However, it should still be a substantial effort (until the late game and Blink) to actually take a base (as opposed to counterattacking the enemies in your territory, which should be easier), meaning that defenses should be around 2/3 the weapons available (1/2 once tachyon fields come online).  Because of the need for the ability to counterattack and the greater presence on other beelines, attack will tend to be somewhat ahead of similar-tier defense, so early midgame defense (defined here from everything after HEC until Probability Mechanics) does need a bit of a boost.

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This is part of the richness of the strategy of SMAC, that even on defense, the best strategy involves watching for opportunities for counterstrikes.

The problem, though, is that unless that also comes with a strong ability to defend your bases, it makes it very hard to have a stalemate of the sort that lets games go long.

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It seems to me that since cities benefit from other terrain enhancements such as rivers and jungle and terrain elevation, it is not unreasonable to benefit from sensors as well.

Cities actually do not benefit from terrain elevation other than in terms of artillery bonuses.  As for landmarks and rivers, they differ from what you mentioned in two very important ways: They are not built by the player (well, you can drill to aquifer, but that's not the usual way to get rivers, and it doesn't have to be in that square anyway), and they cannot be easily destroyed anyway.  The problem with sensors in bases is that it's a +25% bonus which can't be removed except by destroying the base.

Perhaps a better approach would be to instead have a sensor-like facility (sensor net), probably requiring Advanced Military Algorithms to build.  That way, it can't be destroyed by military units, but can be destroyed by probe teams.  What would be a good cost and maintenance for such a facility?

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I believe some of the original supplied scenarios had some cities that started with sensors underneath, so I believe the designers did indeed account for this possibility.

I've looked through them, and believe you are mistaken there.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 27, 2013, 06:15:22 AM
The geosynchronous sat acts as a sensor, and cannot be destroyed by ordinary enhancement destruction.

The elevation advantage for artillery in an elevated city is considerable, at +25% per level.

I think you missed my other point.  I don't care how much you raise defenses; provide an early defensive unit with strength 6, and all you will do in general is preserve whatever cities/squares that have this unit.  Meanwhile, if you have no offense, I will destroy every undefended former, crawler, and terrain enhancement, and you will lose.  In fact, the availability of the strength 6 defender makes this much easier for me, since I just have to bring some of these along to ensure that it is extremely costly to attempt a counterattack.

Things are not just one sided.  As an attacker, I bring along my best defensive units as well to help mitigate counterattack.  If my entire attack force is nothing but 6/1, even some 2/1 defenders engaging in active defense can decimate my army.  Both attackers and defenders are best served by a mix of attacking and defending units.  Attackers cannot total ignore any defensive technologies; they need a decent level of defense against counterattacks.  Defenders cannot ignore attacking technologies; they need a decent level of attack to take advantage of opportunities to counterattack.

There is nothing wrong with the attack/defense balance as it is.  Part of the balance is how costly it is to have both attack and defense on infantry, and how prohibitive it is on speeders.  The other part of this balance is the role of terrain.  A defender must position his defense to make the best use of terrain.  Cities can provide the most defense, with +25% defense against non-infantry, and perimeter fence, tachyon fields, and aerospace complex multiplying the defense.  But even rocky/forest/fungus provide +50% defense, which can help even the odds, or in conjuction with a sensor (which the defenders can be sitting on to defend), provide +75% defense.  A bunker adds another 25%, raising this to 100%, plus no collateral damage.  This puts the defense on an equal or better footing than the attacker.  Other enhancements like comm jammer add an additional +50%D against fast units,  and AAA tracking adds +100%D against air units, making attacks against such positions by these units suicidal.

But one cannot forget the value of active defense.  A single high attack value unit that can take out one attacker also does collateral damage to the rest of the stack, making it far more costly for the attacker to succeed.  And it keeps the attacker from just avoiding your defenses and wiping out your terrain, since you can snipe at him from your defense, eroding his attack force.

But in short, there is simply nothing wrong with things the way they are now.  A determined and smart defender can repel an attack force using a combination of passive and active defense.  If the attacker has more resources at his disposal, then the defense can eventually be overwhelmed, but that is how it is supposed to be.  Once an engagement occurs, if the attacker's industry can resupply units 25% faster than defender, then the defender ultimately will be destroyed.  And the reverse is true.  If the defender can resupply 25% faster, the original attacker will be pushed back, and the defender becomes the attacker, pushing back and destroying the original attacker.  As it should happen.  You cannot expect for the conflict to be a statemate long enough for endgame technologies to be developed.  Typically, once a conflict is engaged, at most 2 or 3 breakthroughs will occur that can affect the combats before one faction overruns the other.

This industrial factor applies whether one is attacking or not.  If I have developed a 25% economic/industrial advantage over the other factions, I don't really need to rush an attack.  As long as I am careful, this advantage will compound over time to a 50% advantage, then a 100% advantage, etc.  It is often the economically weaker faction that must force an attack to try to reduce this economic advantage.

So if one wants to use late game technology, you have to defer contact until research has progressed, by the starting positions on the map, and by refraining from anything such as tech stagnation that will slow down research.  But making a high defensive value unit available early on will not trigger a stalemate; it may instead embolden an attacker who would otherwise be worried about active defense.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: gwillybj on January 27, 2013, 06:24:45 AM
There are two items set at zero in alpax.txt:
"Combat % -> for attacking from higher elevation."
"Combat penalty % -> attacking from lower elevation."

alphaxguide_v1_3 (http://www.civgaming.net/smac/alphaxguide_v1_3.html) suggests setting both of these to 12. I have confirmed for myself that both work as stated. I prefer to set them to 10, and I've tested it at 15.

Note this caution: "The AI does NOT seem to be particularly aware of this, so changing this value actually hurts the AI." It doesn't take the time to look for a downhill attack route. It's not a bug, it's a programming thing: Can you imagine an AI unit stuck circling a base on the top of a hill because no downhill attack route exists? I wouldn't want to be tasked with rewriting that part of the pathfinder routine.
So, the MP'ers would have to agree on whether to use both, either, or neither, of those two items.

Also note the item before these: "Combat % -> attacking along road." It is broken just as the document says. Leave it at zero.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 27, 2013, 01:36:13 PM
The geosynchronous sat acts as a sensor, and cannot be destroyed by ordinary enhancement destruction.

I know; that was my idea, to lower the tech, cost, and maintenance of the geosynchronous satellite in order to replace "sensors under bases" without having an indestructible improvement.

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The elevation advantage for artillery in an elevated city is considerable, at +25% per level.

True, but artillery is usually only used for support to the main attack/defense force.

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I think you missed my other point.  I don't care how much you raise defenses; provide an early defensive unit with strength 6, and all you will do in general is preserve whatever cities/squares that have this unit.  Meanwhile, if you have no offense, I will destroy every undefended former, crawler, and terrain enhancement, and you will lose.  In fact, the availability of the strength 6 defender makes this much easier for me, since I just have to bring some of these along to ensure that it is extremely costly to attempt a counterattack.

I understand that, which is why people do need to get offense as well.  However, if there isn't even a moderately easy defense-4 unit available (say, before Missile offense), then I have to use counterattacks even to defend bases, and that means that fighting to take your bases isn't that different from fighting to defend my own, so the game ends a lot sooner.
With defense-4 available at Subatomic, I can still counterattack your units (defense 4 isn't going to make a counterattack that costly), but will make it difficult for you to attack my bases (in which I have offensive troops stationed), so fighting in my territory gives me a substantial advantage (in that I have squares where I have the defensive advantage, and you do not).

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There is nothing wrong with the attack/defense balance as it is.

So then why is it so easy to take bases in the early midgame that the game actually ends there if it stays in that stage for 50% longer?

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This puts the defense on an equal or better footing than the attacker.

With +6 attack against +3 defense, not by very much, since a lot of the stuff you mentioned doesn't stack.

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If the attacker has more resources at his disposal, then the defense can eventually be overwhelmed, but that is how it is supposed to be.  Once an engagement occurs, if the attacker's industry can resupply units 25% faster than defender, then the defender ultimately will be destroyed.  And the reverse is true.  If the defender can resupply 25% faster, the original attacker will be pushed back, and the defender becomes the attacker, pushing back and destroying the original attacker.  As it should happen.

No, what should happen is that if they're fairly close, then neither can destroy each other until the endgame techs break the stalemate one way or another.

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This industrial factor applies whether one is attacking or not.  If I have developed a 25% economic/industrial advantage over the other factions, I don't really need to rush an attack.  As long as I am careful, this advantage will compound over time to a 50% advantage, then a 100% advantage, etc.

Not unless you've got a greater percentage growth of your economic advantage; if you have a 25% economic advantage but the same percentage growth rate, the advantage will stay at 25% unless you can destroy his economic stuff.

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But making a high defensive value unit available early on will not trigger a stalemate; it may instead embolden an attacker who would otherwise be worried about active defense.

Depends how high.  4 defense against 6 attack is not going to stop active defense that much.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 27, 2013, 03:29:49 PM
Earthmichael, it occurred to me: Are you talking about 1v1, or many-player?  Because in many-player, destroying improvements and units without any chance of taking bases (or territory) usually isn't worth the cost unless you're more powerful than everyone else put together.

However, in either case, it seems to me that the following concepts hold:
-The goal is to make the game last a substantial period of time after to contact, as that makes for a more interesting game.  This means increasing the necessary advantage over the other guy in order to be able to win.
-If you have a production-plus-morale advantage over the other guy more than the attacker-over-defender advantage ratio in the open, then you can win in 1v1, by simply moving your forces into the enemy's territory and doing damage, since your existing advantage means that even if he counterattacks you'll come out ahead.
-If you have a production-plus-morale advantage over the other guy more than the defender-over-attacker advantage ratio when attacking bases, then you can win by just overrunning his bases.
-Thus, the best approach for a long game is to balance the two advantage ratios, so that the defender in a base has an advantage roughly comparable to the attacker in the open.
-In a base, the defender has an extra +100% advantage with a Perimeter Defense, and +200% with a tachyon field, so that would suggest that to maximize game length after contact, attack values should be roughly 1.5X corresponding defense values before tachyon fields, and roughly 2X corresponding defense values after tachyon fields.  For many-player games (the normal way of playing), going too far toward defense is better than going too far toward offense, since the natural tendency against non-base-conquering wars in many-player (remember, if in a Spartan/Peacekeeper/Hive/Morgan game, the Spartans kill 10 Peacekeeper crawlers and lose 4 impact rovers in the process, the real winners from the encounter are the Hive and Morgan.)
-Techs which are on major beelines (e.g. Superconductor, Synthetic Fossil Fuels, Organic Superlubricant, Advanced Spaceflight) will generally be achieved sooner than same-tier techs of the same level, so they should be expected to be available at the same time as non-beeline techs (such as pretty much all defensive techs) one level lower.  In 1v1, there's also a bias toward offense for the reasons you mentioned. 
-Thus, Nonlinear Mathematics (A4) and Superconductor (A5) correspond roughly to High-Energy Chemistry (D3) (except for momentum factions, who try to get Nonlinear Mathematics early enough to overrun enemies who do not yet have their defenses; this is a different playstyle but one that doesn't feel unnaturally shortened like a midgame builder victory does), Synthetic Fossil Fuels (A6) corresponds roughly to Advanced Subatomic Theory (no defense modules), Superstring Theory (A8) to Silksteel (D4), Organic Superlubricant (A10) to Photon/Wave Mechanics (D5), Theory of Everything (A12) and Advanced Spaceflight (A13) to Probability Mechanics (D6, also gives tachyon fields), Quantum Machinery (A16) very roughly corresponds to Matter Compression (D10), Advanced Gravitonics (A20) roughly corresponds to Matter Editation (D10), and Controlled Singularity (A24) to Temporal Mechanics (D12).  Thus, it works pretty well, except for from Advanced Subatomic Theory until (not including) Probability Mechanics, so I think giving +1 to defense (just +1) in that particular segment would work well to extend the game.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Earthmichael on January 27, 2013, 03:40:11 PM
In multiplayer, diplomacy is king.  You do not want to attack another player unless you can finish them and take their resources, giving you a leg up on pure builders.  It would be far better to leave your closest neightbor as a nominal ally, than to create a thorn in your side the rest of the game that you can't quite kill.

If you do something that prevents this possibility, then you might as well remove momentum factions like Believers and Spartans from the game.  They are SUPPOSED to be able to win early tech fights handily.  That does not mean the entire game ends this early, but just than one faction is eliminated.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on January 27, 2013, 04:03:36 PM
In multiplayer, diplomacy is king.  You do not want to attack another player unless you can finish them and take their resources, giving you a leg up on pure builders.  It would be far better to leave your closest neightbor as a nominal ally, than to create a thorn in your side the rest of the game that you can't quite kill.

Not quite.  It can also be worth attacking another player, even if you can't finish them, if you can take and hold enough of their territory and infrastructure that even after discounting the existence of a (now fairly weak) enemy, you can get a leg up on pure builders that way.

Two more potential uses of attacking another player, specifically for the more militant factions, are to steal projects, and as a threat.  For instance, Miriam has difficulty grabbing techs to get projects, and unlike Domai and Yang doesn't have a production advantage to compensate, so her usual method of getting projects is something along the following lines:
Someone starts building the Planetary Datalinks (or CBA for that matter in a game where satellites and air units have been depowered enough to not make it the most powerful project out there), and whoever's playing Miriam decides they want it.  So they send whoever built it a message:
"You have starting building the Planetary Datalinks, and I want that one.  So there are a few ways we can do this:
1. You stop building the Planetary Datalinks, and let me build it.
2. You build it in a base, and then sell the base to me.
3. You build it in a base, refuse to sell the base, and I conquer that base and then we leave it at that.
4. You build it in a base, refuse to sell that base, and obliterate the base when I'm about to take it to prevent me from getting it, and I get mad and destroy your whole empire.  I've got a good chance of being able to do that, you know."
And the Planetary Datalinks isn't worth going to war with the Believers, so they let her grab it.
Of course, that only works well for someone who actually can at least reliably threaten to conquer bases; lesser attacks are a lot less likely to get concessions.

Remember, threats are also part of diplomacy, so there is a point in attacking, it's just weaker to the point where "force a few formers and crawlers into bases and destroy some terrain improvements" isn't that strong.

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If you do something that prevents this possibility, then you might as well remove momentum factions like Believers and Spartans from the game.  They are SUPPOSED to be able to win early tech fights handily.  That does not mean the entire game ends this early, but just than one faction is eliminated.

I think you misunderstand; early-tech fights would be unchanged.  It's only the particular window where people have access to ECM but not tachyon fields that would be substantially changed; momentum factions usually try to get their biggest bonuses earlier than that.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on February 01, 2013, 12:44:02 AM
Has anyone seen unique icons for these two techs?  The two included with SMAC are duplicates.  If not, I'll try designing my own SMAC-friendly icons; that and the Datalinks are the only thing left to do to fully incorporate these into the game.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: gwillybj on February 01, 2013, 12:54:36 AM
Has anyone seen unique icons for these two techs?  The two included with SMAC are duplicates.  If not, I'll try designing my own SMAC-friendly icons; that and the Datalinks are the only thing left to do to fully incorporate these into the game.

I'm lost... which 2 techs? I have distinct icons for all 89 (90?) techs.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on February 01, 2013, 12:57:50 AM
I'm lost... which 2 techs? I have distinct icons for all 89 (90?) techs.
The icons for Inertial Damping and Global Energy Theory (#24 and #70) are identical to those for Singularity Mechanics and Sentient Econometrics respectively.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: BFG on February 04, 2013, 04:47:44 AM
Does anyone have access to beta versions of SMAC/SMAX?  I'd like to check if icons ever existed for Inertial Damping or Global Energy Theory before creating my own.
I'd also be curious if anyone knows how to create new links in the Datalinks text files.  Upon a first glance, I'm lost.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: Yitzi on February 04, 2013, 06:13:53 AM
Does anyone have access to beta versions of SMAC/SMAX?  I'd like to check if icons ever existed for Inertial Damping or Global Energy Theory before creating my own.
I'd also be curious if anyone knows how to create new links in the Datalinks text files.  Upon a first glance, I'm lost.

I believe you put it as "$LINK<Name=#>" (without the quotes), where Name is whatever the link text should be, and # is the number of the thing you want to link to (easiest to find if you have something else that links there; otherwise you'd have to guess (though I think it's simply a number that depends on which file it's found in (helpx or conceptsx or whatever), plus which number entry it is in that file.)

Although tech tree info is put in automatically and doesn't have to be linked; just use alphax.txt to structure the tech tree how you want it, and it should work automatically.
Title: Re: The Deleted Technologies?
Post by: ete on February 04, 2013, 11:06:54 AM
I'd also be curious if anyone knows how to create new links in the Datalinks text files.  Upon a first glance, I'm lost.

http://alphacentauri2.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Datalinks_syntax (http://alphacentauri2.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Datalinks_syntax)
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