Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: ete on December 03, 2012, 01:01:00 PM

Title: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on December 03, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
You may have seen this project (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2728.0), which aims to balance custom factions with lots of community input. Yitzi suggested ranking official factions by power, and after some thought, I decided to put up the opening post despite my lack of multiplayer experience. Please give suggestions about the ranking of as many factions as you have significant experience with. Rankings will range from 5 (weakest official faction) to 10 (strongest human official faction), with aliens being given a higher rating. There will be separate ranking for the power of a faction in human hands and in AI hands.

Multiplayer
University, Hive, Morgan, Gaians, PKs, Spartans, Believers, Cult, Angels, Pirates, Drones, Cyborgs, Usurpers, Caretakers
10:
9:
8:
7:
6:
5:

AI
University, Hive, Morgan, Gaians, PKs, Spartans, Believers, Cult, Angels, Pirates, Drones, Cyborgs, Usurpers, Caretakers
10:
9:
8:
7:
6:
5:

I will base the rankings by consensus (with more weight given to veteran/high skill players), granting my own opinions no special importance. If enough feedback for a more fine-grained system is practical then that will be created (e.g. rating each faction by ability as builder, hybrid, and momentum, with the average(?) score taken as the overall score, allowing some specific scores to be outside 5-10).
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on December 03, 2012, 01:36:47 PM
Since I do not have multiplayer experience and have not read over a significant number of multiplayer games, I'm sticking to AI for now. Note that I play without pop booms and with minimal/no crawlers to make it a more even game, since AI basically never uses those.
First draft of my opinions (subject to change)
AI
11: Usurpers, Caretakers
10: Hive
9: Believers, Spartans, Cyborgs
8: University, Gaians, Drones
7: Pirates
6: PKs, Angels, Cult
5: Morgan

Reasoning:
Aliens are very strong, but significantly mitigated by them always being at war with each other.
AI plays the Hive extremely well, it can be challenging to deal with the huge flood of units.
Believers can be quite hard to deal with if you start too close, same to a lesser extent with Spartans. Cyborgs can be a midgame threat if you can't ally with them and they get a good start.
University,  Drones and Gaians have one big advantage each (Tech, floods of cheap units, and wormrush), but are otherwise average. Uni would be higher if not for the easy probing.
Pirates are a very odd one. I find they're often the last AI I take down,  and they often have a large empire with a lot of aircraft, but once you get marine detachment cruisers and some air support their entire empire crumbles remarkably fast. In shear annoyingness they rival the Hive with their air harrassment while I'm off fighting someone else.
PKs are all around average, with a good start they can be slightly annoying, but they've rarely been much of a threat. Angels can do some damage with a few well placed mind controls if you don't prepare, but are unimpressive otherwise. The Cult can be a bit tough to deal with on high native and close proximity, but they don't have much of a follow up and tend to get killed off by other AIs a lot.
I've practically never seen Morgan come out on top of any other AI, and even when he's left alone by the time I reach him he gets torn apart.

Edit: You don't need anything like this much reasoning, or even to include all the factions.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Maniac on December 04, 2012, 01:30:47 PM
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on December 04, 2012, 02:39:07 PM
Thanks Maniac. Would you happen to know approximately how much more powerful the aliens tend to be? Like, is the power difference between the Morgans/Uni and Hive/Angels greater than the difference between Morgans/Uni and Userpers?
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 04, 2012, 03:01:05 PM
Wait a second...you said Aki can't popboom (i.e. by "popboom" you mean without a Golden Age), but Morgan can?  Both Aki and Morgan need a golden age to popboom.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Maniac on December 04, 2012, 03:30:24 PM
Thanks Maniac. Would you happen to know approximately how much more powerful the aliens tend to be? Like, is the power difference between the Morgans/Uni and Hive/Angels greater than the difference between Morgans/Uni and Userpers?

I wouldn't know. Aliens were never played in multiplayer. I wouldn't be surprised though if Morgan and UoP turned out to be more powerful than the aliens.

Wait a second...you said Aki can't popboom (i.e. by "popboom" you mean without a Golden Age), but Morgan can?  Both Aki and Morgan need a golden age to popboom.

Woops sorry. Anyway, Morgan was still, besides the UoP, considered the most powerful faction due to the huge economy bonuses.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Green1 on December 04, 2012, 08:10:31 PM
I think the Pirates should be bumped a bit further up for SP. The Pirates are always a powerhouse when I include them in the game. They get air superiority, you have issues - even pirate AI vs Yang AI. Then again, it might be Kyrub's meddlings.

Morgan is definately the weakest for SP. I can not put my finger on it, but I think it has to do with the AI not able to handle FM very well or avoiding the powerful Green/Wealth wartime choice with Morgan that a sane player would use. Then again, Aki likes FM, and the AI does okay.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 04, 2012, 09:22:28 PM
I summed it up recently in another thread, but here it is:

Tier 1: Uni, Domai, Hive

Uni because you know why, the best egghead with almost negligible penalties. As Flubber once said, the only real weakness of Zak is that all the rest of players happily gang up against him. In 1v1 games definitely the best.

Domai was considered the most powerful faction by many people I knew, with the Hive following shortly. This is mainly because the INDUSTRY SE choice is so powerful and useful, probably the most important one apart from +2 ECON. Just build network nodes and remember you have a leg up with SPs and you should be fine.

Hive is also very easy to play, almost vulgar. Set PS/Planned/Wealth, steamroll, win. I fear him and despise him at the same time.

All three rely heavily on ICS.

Tier 2: Aki, Morgan, Deirdre

All have significant energy bonuses, but have some drawbacks which must be overcome. Aki is probably the strongest here, but only slightly and she has a hard time popbooming. Morgan is a very good faction, but also very demanding, probably one the most difficult factions to play. It is worth noting here that Morgan popbooms (with GA) easier than Aki when he gets +4 ECON. At default 20% PSYCH at FM, many of your bases popboom spontaneously.
Deirdre - use your EFFIC bonus to get more bases and put slider to TECH to catch up with the true researchers and you should be fine. Also, her penalties are negligible. -1 MORALE is offset by Creches, -1 POLICE means just she can't staple, big deal.

All in all, three factions on the comparative level. Aki and Morgan should ICS, Deirdre is more flexible here (I think, I haven't played her for ages).

Tier 3: PK, Data Angels, Sparta, Believers

PK - I love them because they don't have any serious penalties, they're the only faction which so openly prefers vertical over horizontal development and they're very flexible, meaning they can fight, get +2 ECON or popboom as decently as your average faction. Still, they lack any serious bonuses, so they're no match to either true builder or true fighter.

Data Angels - my favorite faction for fun, but still they're weak. In my opinion, they are a blank faction, and the usefulness of those PROBE bonuses depend heavily on the other players' gamestyle and map. They kinda force you to be creative. But they're cool and they have the jazz. :)

Sparta - I remember I spent a lot of time searching for a good opening strategy for Sparta and I found out that early FM works best. Sparta is the only faction which can still harvest MW under FM. Use the money to make up for the INDUSTRY, go for air and attack. But the -1 INDUSTRY, no Wealth and the fact that Power sucks is a serious deterrent for me.

Believers - I don't know, I played them like twice in my life, I can't stand this... noble woman. I can't imagine how you can make up for the RESEARCH hit in MP games against serious players. Yes, I heard about "build many formers/CPs", but this advice is good for any faction in the game, so it sort of doesn't count. Miriam is a mistery to me.

Tier 4: Pirates, Cult

Pirates - a weak-and-demanding faction. I also spent considerable time playing him (in SP) and I believe he should come out on land as soon as possible, and also run very early FM like Sparta. Otherwise his research plummets. It takes skill to tackle his penalties and even then you're still worse off than the others. I recommend it for players who seek challenge.

Cult - a transgender albino with jaundice who looks like the Japanese from WWII-era racist comic books, and with faction bonuses and penalties to match. What were they thinking? Playable only if you have a reason to take a serious handicap. My only advice (I also experimented with them in SP): go for early popboom.

I don't know about Aliens, nobody plays them, but they look too strong for MP. On the other hand, like Maniac said, they may still be weaker than Zak.


It's hard for me to comment on AIs, as I don't think the differences are that huge. Once you get to midgame, you pancake every one of them. ;) Still, Hive and Aliens manage quite well. Uni would be stronger but he always the techs to Supercollider too early, all those polymorphic software and whatnots clog his research.

Green1 mentions the Pirates. Well, in my games Sven has non-existent research, sometimes several lab points when others research air. If he used naval probe teams, then maybe...

Deirdre fares quite well, if I recall correctly, so does Aki. At the moment I can't recall any more opinions.


Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Green1 on December 04, 2012, 09:33:52 PM
Well, in the first AAR he did have naval probes because I messed up and he used his auto marine ability and stole some elite probe skimships from me.

He could profit from having that in his build list always for SP.

He could also profit from using cheese marine/transport tricks vs coastal bases. Still, he had tremendous air that was a lot harder to counter than it looked till I just out teched him and tipped air superiority into my favor.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 04, 2012, 10:50:15 PM
PK - I love them because they don't have any serious penalties, they're the only faction which so openly prefers vertical over horizontal development and they're very flexible, meaning they can fight, get +2 ECON or popboom as decently as your average faction. Still, they lack any serious bonuses, so they're no match to either true builder or true fighter.

Wait, the ability to get huge (and thus facility-efficient) bases with good stability isn't a serious bonus?  Although I suppose that with ICS so powerful anyway maybe it's not so good.  Perhaps if ICS were nerfed, and nerfed hard?  (I envision a good mod to be one that, among its other features, makes an ideal momentum spacing be half to a third the density of pure ICS, and ideal builder spacing roughly a fifth of that.)

Quote
Data Angels - my favorite faction for fun, but still they're weak. In my opinion, they are a blank faction, and the usefulness of those PROBE bonuses depend heavily on the other players' gamestyle and map. They kinda force you to be creative. But they're cool and they have the jazz. :)

Although there is something to be said for your probe teams being only a monolith away from elite on creation (without having to run Fundamentalist and pay for covert ops centers everywhere, particularly if there are no AI players or the rules prohibit "farming" AI players for levels).

Quote
Sparta - I remember I spent a lot of time searching for a good opening strategy for Sparta and I found out that early FM works best. Sparta is the only faction which can still harvest MW under FM. Use the money to make up for the INDUSTRY, go for air and attack. But the -1 INDUSTRY, no Wealth and the fact that Power sucks is a serious deterrent for me.

Another idea that seems it might work is to grab the Command Nexus, run Fundamentalist, and send freshly produced units through a monolith for early-game 2-move infantry and 3-move rovers, then use those to overrun a few other factions.

Quote
Believers - I don't know, I played them like twice in my life, I can't stand this... noble woman. I can't imagine how you can make up for the RESEARCH hit in MP games against serious players. Yes, I heard about "build many formers/CPs", but this advice is good for any faction in the game, so it sort of doesn't count. Miriam is a mistery to me.

Seems to me (though I'm unexperienced) that the Believers' best approach might be to use probes as needed for some sort of tech parity and try to tech to AMA; with a midgame Fundamentalist/Power (and Planned to mitigate the INDUSTRY bonus), they can store up an absolute horde of elite (once they're run through a monolith) attack troops and just overrun the enemy forces.  They do have slow production, but when your infantry can keep pace with everyone else's rovers and you don't have to worry about support that makes a big difference.
They'll still be somewhat weak, as running POWER does cut heavily into crawler production (have I mentioned that crawlers are overpowered?), but that seems the way you'd want to run them.

Quote
Cult - a transgender albino with jaundice who looks like the Japanese from WWII-era racist comic books, and with faction bonuses and penalties to match. What were they thinking? Playable only if you have a reason to take a serious handicap. My only advice (I also experimented with them in SP): go for early popboom.

Wait, isn't Cult essentially the ultimate worm rush faction?

And of course late game he's got toys like Brood Pits and (if he can sacrifice enough to build it or can manage enough steal it) the Dream Twister.

Quote
Green1 mentions the Pirates. Well, in my games Sven has non-existent research

Maybe if you could provide a download of one of those games?  Because as things stand, Sven seems he should be extremely good at research (though his production is low and in an unmodded game he'd be well advised to hurry everything).  With specialists and tidal harnesses (and of course appropriate facilities) he should be able to match anything except heavy ICS.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Green1 on December 04, 2012, 11:27:58 PM
Sven not ICSing? Sven covers the sea with bases and chokes you. His only problem is he does not do land enough as an AI.

Miriam weak as AI? Miriam is legendary for being a nasty, evil AI even unmodded. I would dare say she is one of the nastiest and psycotic AIs of any TBS game that has been made short of Civ 4's Montezuma or Shaka Zulu. But even Monty does not have the staying power of the Sister. Could profit from more use of probes as a AI, but that would be insane.

Sparta weak? One game I played as Miriam I started next to the Colonel. She treated me like Colonel Sanders does chicken - fried and crispy.

Roze weak? One game as Lal, I fought off swarms of probes and could not get any headway because she put all these bases close together and shifted probes to MC anything I took.

Cult? On a abundant lifeform map, he dominates and has large territory till you hopefully hit air and decimate him.

Then again, I am using an AI mod.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 04, 2012, 11:58:06 PM
Sven not ICSing? Sven covers the sea with bases and chokes you.

A sea-based Sven can't match a land-based borehole-based real ICS (with bases in half the squares and boreholes in the other half).  A tightly packed but not real ICS-ing (say, a base every 8 squares) Sven seems he should be able to (before Social Engineering is considered) match any other land-based builder strategy until AEE becomes available, and more than match them until Fusion Power or Retroviral.
Remember, with aquafarm and transducer and FM, each non-base square is producing 2 surplus food and 5 energy.  Put those 2 food into librarians and run 50% labs, and that's 5.5 labs and 2.5 economy per square.  (Plus 1 mineral if he bothered to raise it to ocean shelf.)  With a network node, energy bank, research hospital, tree farm, and hybrid forest, that's 11 labs and 7.5 economy (mostly for rush buying because his minerals suffer horribly) per square, difficult to match (much less surpass) without an extremely high borehole density.
And of course Sven has a huge amount of territory available...

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Sparta weak? One game I played as Miriam I started next to the Colonel. She treated me like Colonel Sanders does chicken - fried and crispy.

It seems that Sparta will be stronger than Miriam in the early game, but Miriam will be stronger in the midgame.

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Roze weak? One game as Lal, I fought off swarms of probes and could not get any headway because she put all these bases close together and shifted probes to MC anything I took.

Better Lal than Zak.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on December 05, 2012, 12:26:39 AM
Thanks for all the replies, especially Kirov's detailed analysis.

I think the Pirates should be bumped a bit further up for SP. The Pirates are always a powerhouse when I include them in the game. They get air superiority, you have issues - even pirate AI vs Yang AI. Then again, it might be Kyrub's meddlings.
As I said initially, the pirates as AI are an odd mix. On one hand, they tend to be one of the last to die and usually prove annoying with all those aircraft. On the other, once you get a few (even 2-3) decent cruisers with marine detachment and some 'copters (including a couple of anti air ones), his entire empire seems to fall remarkably quickly, since you take over a large portion of his ships while fighting them, heal by taking the bases your 'copters clear out, and can kill his air fleet very fast with 'copters.

And Green, remember that Kirov is talking about MP primarily, rather than AI.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Maniac on December 05, 2012, 04:52:46 AM
Wait, the ability to get huge (and thus facility-efficient) bases with good stability isn't a serious bonus?  Although I suppose that with ICS so powerful anyway maybe it's not so good.

Actually Lal is very good for ICS too. The extra talent means you can expand more before having to worry about bureaucracy drones.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 05, 2012, 05:17:19 AM
Wait, the ability to get huge (and thus facility-efficient) bases with good stability isn't a serious bonus?  Although I suppose that with ICS so powerful anyway maybe it's not so good.

Actually Lal is very good for ICS too. The extra talent means you can expand more before having to worry about bureaucracy drones.

Although on the flip side his efficiency penalty hurts there...but either way, Lal's main strength is his population and stability.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Maniac on December 05, 2012, 05:41:28 AM
Bureaucracy drones don't get worse under values lower than -2 Efficiency. So yeah, he'd get more bureaucracy drones than a FM ICSer, but still just as much, or less, (depending on his own economics SE) than a Planned ICSer.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: JarlWolf on December 05, 2012, 10:52:23 AM
These are my takes on the factions and their overall strength and so forth, in terms of AI. In terms of playing, we all have our different styles, but I will state my grasp of them. The numbering is not in any particular order and is not a ranking of them.

1. Gaians: I find them to not be too much of a threat, they often have fairly decent sized territories and have a fair amount of population behind them, making them either a significant pain or a great ally on the council, but they are lacking in war. Mind worms can do damage if you know how to use them. For some reason, the Gaian AI doesn't.
In terms of actually playing, Gaians can be a monstrous power, using mind worms and ecological improvements or focus (blind research or not) will increase their mobility and overall strength, making them great for quick strikes and guerrilla tactics.

2.Hive: A faction with expansive population and I find is quite belligerent. The Hive is often lacking in technology for some reason I find, or at least in weaponry, but they have a fair amount of numbers to compensate and they often take valuable territory from you by merely expanding. Fighting a war against them is wearisome if you do not produce a large military force able to take hold of, and capture the Hive's cities. Cities that just taking seem to be difficult, even if you constantly bombard or sabotage.  As for playing the Hive, the Hive can be a juggernaught of a faction, using expansion to rule the day with encircling and starving your opponents out, fighting a war of attrition. Then again I tend to be an attrition fighter to begin with.

3. The University: The university tends to have decent technology, but for some reason isn't always the most advanced. The University also lacks production I find that doesn't help them secure secret projects. However they do create a rather formidable faction in their own right, utilizing air power when they get it, and the tend to have decently size territory and a fair amount of population. They are easy to attack and take over, though they are a useful ally if you befriend them, of which I often do. The University is fun to play and I find centralizing them as opposed to rampant expansion is the best way to go, maximizing mineral and energy output to have a large energy economy to help increase rate of discovery, winning by transcendence or by merely being ahead of your opponents in the arms race. And to defend against probes, just have units patrolling outside to intercept the backstabbing snakes before they get inside.

4. Morgan: Morgan is probably one of the most charismatic leaders in my opinion with the books. And for some odd reason, this hard lining capitalist generates a soft spot from me, a die hard communist. However in terms of actual game play Morgan is not very strong, but he is not exactly pushover either. The problem with Morgan's AI I find is that it does not expand very fast and it seems for some reason to always be behind in the arms race.  And oddly enough though it makes up for this strange deficit by just producing lots of units, utilizing it's energy and mineral bonuses no doubt to crank out units. Morgan tends to be a fair opponent in battle, and he can be a useful ally in terms of trade and the odd tech swapping. As for playing, Morgan and his faction can easily become overpowered and the leading force in technological development. The energy boon Morgan gets can easily secure secret projects and generally the rule of thumb is with research, the more wealth your faction produces, the more it can spend on research and thus faster rate of discovery. Combine this with a variety and plethora of cheap tactics the Morganites can become a mighty force indeed.

5. Believers: Miriam tends to be a little self righteous in my books, at least in terms of her faction. She is often compulsive and extremely aggressive, and has lots of problems regarding social policies. She is a dangerous enemy, and while she may lack technology for a fair while her probe teams and trade with other factions (if she does even trade) can make up the difference. The Believers are not to be taken lightly I find as they often conquer and decimate other factions and generally if I start next to them I eradicate and kill every single one of them. I show no mercy and I do not let them grow, as I know they will just stifle my growth and kill me if I don't.
The Believers are a worthy opponent, but a chaotic and somewhat unsettling ally. I rarely have good relations with them.
In terms of playing, I haven't played the Believers too much, but on contrary to what most people seemed to have I have played them occasionally. The Believers have an interesting playing style of reap and sow, climb and conquer as I call it. You expand and use the expansive, hardy population of your faction to produce units, probe teams and then you proceed to war on other factions. Seiging your opponents cities, slipping in probes you overcome your technological disparity through war.  I always find I am a war mongerer as I play Miriam's faction, and it is built well for it.

6. Spartans: Colonel Santiago and her faction of militarists have always annoyed me for some reason. As a military man I am not sure the interpretation of the militarists was done on purpose to be a paranoid bunch of border zealots or they were to represent a more nationalist faction that has issues of xenophobia in the first place. Either way Santiago typically is a thorn in my side if I do not crush her immediately, I regret it later when she is slipping units into my flanks and being a general discomfort. She puts up a fight, but her military efforts for some reason do not translate well with her being an ally. I often find her to be an untrustworthy, backstabbing traitor who will use excuses to break her alliance with you once you become too powerful or if you are at a vulnerable position. Usually I just butcher her and her followers. As Genghis Khan believed, as do I. Traitors, no matter who's banner they switch to are not to be trusted, and must be dealt with accordingly. Without trust, and with severe punishment. And thus I put Santiago's head on a pike for that. I myself do not deal with traitors kindly, and I do not hide my true feelings towards the subject. If I put traitors down back in my service days I will do so again, just this time in a game, to ensure safety and security.

As for playing her, she is a little bit more redeeming. Her faction is fairly interesting to play as, and contrary to war mongering, as she often as problems with supplying her forces due to mineral costs, playing a cautious and calculated war of logistics, and choosing your enemies wisely is your best bet. Her technology rate goes over smoothly and the Spartans, if played as proper militarists should, are organized and can inflict damage upon their enemies. - I would like this faction more if it wasn't for the hypocritical praise of Loyalty that this faction inspires, and fails to deliver. And traitors are not something I have sympathy with.

7. PeaceKeepers: As much as I hate the modern U.N and bureaucracy in general, and my general disfavour of democratic politics and their weakness to the control of the wealthy, I have considerable degree's of respect for Lal and I find his faction can be, while not a very strong ally, a very loyal ally. The Peacekeepers tend to be behind in the arms race a little and I find they are often beating and broken down by other factions and often quite savagely. Its for this reason why Lal somewhat reminds me of General Dolaire, the man who was in charge of the U.N at Rwanda. Dolaire being a man who in my eyes was betrayed by his own organization. Fighting Lal seems to be rather easy, unless he is built up. He can secure council votes and if he has had chance to build, secure projects, but he rarely gets a chance to peacefully expand without one of the factions brutalizing him. Unless I am playing a particular faction, for some odd reason I am often playing Big Brother to Lal diplomatically.

Playing the Peacekeepers is rather different then what is described AI Wise. The Peacekeepers have some rather nice bonuses, the extra talents proving their worth when combined with base upgrades and secret projects. The peacekeepers are great at expanding and building I find, their population and talents providing good economic bonuses, and their political advantage at the council is also a nice side touch. Playing the peacekeepers for me often ascribes to their name, being a peacekeeper. I do not often jump into conflicts with them unless I am forced to, and it's mainly only if there is small marauders or a large threat attacking me directly.

8. The CareTakers: H'minee is an odd one to me. I find her quite aggressive, as are the Usurpers, but she can be a somewhat useful ally, just do not trust her(regardless of faction). As an enemy I find she can be a pain to fight and combining fairly good technology, defencive bonuses and planet bonuses she can be a mixture of an annoying pest to a serious threat. I often keep my distance, and if that is not possible, enter a cautious treaty with her and wait for her to invade me, so I can grind down her forces with attrition and then take the fight to her home, ravaging her in the process.

I barely play the Alien factions, and even then I mainly play the Usurpers, but H'minee is sort of like Diedre on steroids. She has planet bonuses but is not a hippy pacifist faction that has penalties during war.

9. The Usurpers: The Usurpers are a belligerent, treacherous faction. While not exactly a total backstabber, Marr is never to be trusted. However due to this reputation of being a war mongerer the Usurpers have less friends then the Caretakers, and he is often weaker just for the fact all the other factions often hate him. He can be a somewhat useful ally provided you are stronger then him, but I personally find it is not worth it and I often just put his head on a pike whenever I get the chance. He is no friend of mine and I am no friend of his and we both know it. A rather worthy opponent in combat, Marr is fun to play with in game.
As for playing him, the Usurpers are fun to play as if you want a challenge. And yes, I am aware their bonuses give them an almost overpowered edge, but the reason I say challenge is because they do not generate friends, and you play as the conqueror through and through. You are constantly in a war of survival and it's a do or die faction in my eyes.

10. The Free Drones: One of my favourite factions both ideologically and gameplay wise. And I often play as them, but here is the funny bit; I actually don't quite know how they act in game. From what I have seen in the past they seem to be behind big time in the arms race but can secure projects fairly well and they are good economic allies, and a bit of an tiring enemy if you lack good defencive lines. Playing the Drones, which I am more accustomed to is fun to say at the very least, and it fits my style well. Using industry and such to pump out units and holding the line, bombarding and fighting a war of attrition on my opponent. The Drones make a formidable faction and they are certainly a top tier one.

11. Cha Dawn: Cha Dawn is an odd faction. And looks deceptively weak. However, they can be a rather threatening war mongerer, and are deadly if encountered early on. As for alliances, I entered alliances with Cha Dawn quite rarely due to my usual playstyle and industrial ambitions, but if you play a planet friendly faction he tends to be a supportive military ally. They fight well early on, but as time passes they tend to lose their strength as other factions eclipse them, and eventually butcher them. I often don't have to kill Cha Dawn and his followers as other factions often do it before I do.

I have barely played Cha Dawn and his faction, but basically I find they are ironically like the Drones, just with a few key differences.
They have terrible research, and they cannot bolster this research with industry like the Drones because they have penalties for that as well, and they rely on planetary life as opposed to machinery and good old fashioned soldiers to do a war of attrition. The best strategy I find with them is expand their populations and make many cities and honestly, just spam mind worms, spore launchers and take territory as fast as you can.

12. Cybernetic Consciousness: Aki Zeta leads an interesting faction that can be a useful ally, and a poor enemy. I often find Aki Zeta to be easily crushed as they have low populations to begin with, and my hammer and anvil tactics of attrition seem to devastate them. However, as an ally they are a good tech trading partner and can offer a little support to you on the frontlines, and they have good technological development overall.

Playing them on the contrary, while the AI doesn't expand very fast, I find being expansive with them is better. The more population they can muster the better, however I do not enter war frequently as them and I tend to avoid it as playing them unless I have a clear edge over my opponents. They are probably one of my most peaceful builder type factions I play.

13. Data Angels: I love jazz, I find Roze to have a fun and interesting personality (and she isn't hard on the eyes to boot) so immediately I like this faction. Being a rather useful, if somewhat weak ally they can provide good tech trading, and while they may not be very advanced while on their own, and alone, if you drag them into the front line with you they prove their worth. Providing them opportunity to snatch technology and reverse engineer things, they become your technical savants you turn to.
Fighting them for me is little more then a joke, and I often avoid it as to how pointless the outcome is. They have small territories that can be easily crushed, and they do not have the resources to capture or get past my lines. I suppose if you were someone with expansive territory and poor security you could have a serious problem, but they are often a weak opponent for me, and more useful to me alive and well.
Playing as Roze offers a unique challenge you won't really get with anyone else besides perhaps Cha Dawn or Miriam, and their probe strategies aren't as entertaining. Roze plays an interesting guerrilla warfare tactic, using probe raiders in small, fortified positions, sabotaging and pilfering technology and draining your opponent, eventually using an ally or breaking down your enemy so much you can capture them. I find expanding too fast with them is not a good idea, especially if you cannot defend it. It is why oddly enough I take to the sea's with them or find more remote area's to boom population and I usually focus on the acquisition of wealth, and I always enter war through the request of allies.

14.The Pirates: I find the Pirates to be a faction you barely have problems with until late game or if you take to the sea's. Ulric is a standup guy I find and often he will not attack you unless provoked, but he can be demanding. Often though he is stuck to the sea's most of the time and he can't back his threats with anything so he's relatively harmless. Fighting him is only a problem if you have issues with defending against air or if you can't defend your holds out at sea. He is a fair ally, but he is noting spectacular and he is not often very advanced.
I have played the Pirates a fair amount, of which may surprise some people. The pirates are something of an empire builder and their bonuses make them overpowered, as they can grow and expand with almost no competition. They can grab projects too, but the problem with the Pirates is they stagnate horribly if you do not enter a war by the time you have 7 or 8 settlements. And you must make sure you have a land outpost on every major continent or else your just going to be stuck to the water and limited to pissant islands.

In terms of my ranking for strength, I cannot myself exactly rank them as everyone's experience may be (and probably will be) different then mine, but I hope this helps in discerning your choices by me adding my perspective of it.


Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 05, 2012, 03:20:45 PM
Question: Why is Deirdre considered fairly good?  I presume it's the Efficiency bonus (as Planet is really only useful if you're going for a strategy to which Cha Dawn is more suited anyway), but when going Green it's essentially redundant (unless going Fundamentalist or Police State, but who does that as Deirdre?), and when going Planned it only means a total of +2 efficiency, which isn't that great.  So it does mean she's the only one who can get a non-golden-age pop boom with positive efficiency, but pop booming is usually for a fairly short period of time anyway, so it doesn't seem like such a big advantage.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on December 05, 2012, 03:41:07 PM
Thanks jarlwolf.

Question: Why is Deirdre considered fairly good?  I presume it's the Efficiency bonus (as Planet is really only useful if you're going for a strategy to which Cha Dawn is more suited anyway), but when going Green it's essentially redundant (unless going Fundamentalist or Police State, but who does that as Deirdre?), and when going Planned it only means a total of +2 efficiency, which isn't that great.  So it does mean she's the only one who can get a non-golden-age pop boom with positive efficiency, but pop booming is usually for a fairly short period of time anyway, so it doesn't seem like such a big advantage.
At +4 effic you can put the labs/econ slider anywhere without inefficiency penalties, and +3 planet lets you capture a whole lot more worms than +1 which is good however you look at it (pop popping, worm farming, or wormrush).
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 05, 2012, 03:45:02 PM
Wait, the ability to get huge (and thus facility-efficient) bases with good stability isn't a serious bonus?  Although I suppose that with ICS so powerful anyway maybe it's not so good.  Perhaps if ICS were nerfed, and nerfed hard?  (I envision a good mod to be one that, among its other features, makes an ideal momentum spacing be half to a third the density of pure ICS, and ideal builder spacing roughly a fifth of that.)

Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to “forest&forget” heavily for several reasons, some of them being that I can’t depend on grabbing WP and on starting on a rainy patch. And when I don’t, I popboom big time only with the advent of EcoEng/EnvEcon, i.e. Condensers and Tree farms. This is midgame and I can be overrun beforehand by a faction with low population and lots of crawled minerals.

Also, ICS. You may have seen me complaining about air power, CBA or EG but in fact, the worst offender in terms of game-breaking style is ICS. It is seriously one of the worst things about SMAX (the worst is stupid AI), because ICS truly is the best generic strategy, all things equal. Civ4 is great when it comes to that, with its city maintenance geometrically proportional to the number of cities. Pity it doesn’t have half of the SMAX style…

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Although there is something to be said for your probe teams being only a monolith away from elite on creation (without having to run Fundamentalist and pay for covert ops centers everywhere, particularly if there are no AI players or the rules prohibit "farming" AI players for levels).

“I will always test my assumptions in my random last savegame before I post them as facts, whether I’m a prospective modder or not”.  :P No, monoliths do not affect probe teams, as they are non-combat units.

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Another idea that seems it might work is to grab the Command Nexus, run Fundamentalist, and send freshly produced units through a monolith for early-game 2-move infantry and 3-move rovers, then use those to overrun a few other factions.

There is no faction which is not forced to beeline to IA, unless it is a very specific situation, like you have landed on the top of Usurpers. And when you do beeline to IA (even Sparta has to, for crawlers at the very least) but you don’t take care of your economy, it will take ages to get to Doc:Loyalty, because of this increasing tech cost. If you do research once in 12 or 15 turns, you’re dead. I’m afraid there is no way you can win a war without a strong economy. Sometimes you can rush, but most of the time you can’t and you definitely can't start a game just kinda hoping to do so.

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Seems to me (though I'm unexperienced) that the Believers' best approach might be to use probes as needed for some sort of tech parity and try to tech to AMA; with a midgame Fundamentalist/Power (and Planned to mitigate the INDUSTRY bonus), they can store up an absolute horde of elite (once they're run through a monolith) attack troops and just overrun the enemy forces.  They do have slow production, but when your infantry can keep pace with everyone else's rovers and you don't have to worry about support that makes a big difference.
They'll still be somewhat weak, as running POWER does cut heavily into crawler production (have I mentioned that crawlers are overpowered?), but that seems the way you'd want to run them.

Same as above. Sure, you can overrun another player if you happen to be placed very close to him. But balanced MP games never do that and you have to assume that your opponents have time to get to midgame relatively undisturbed. Otherwise, what you’re doing is called rush and you may know from Starcraft that it’s a very risky business. If it fails, you’re down.

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Wait, isn't Cult essentially the ultimate worm rush faction?

When I present my opinion on factions, I always assume that you’re not playing settings explicitly beneficial to such a faction. Yes, Cult is a very good faction for a tiny planet with abundant life forms. But put it on the Vets map and it can only cry for help from the Planetmind.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 05, 2012, 03:47:17 PM
And Green, remember that Kirov is talking about MP primarily, rather than AI.

Thanks ete, yes that is the case. Green, the AIs are very similar to each other in that they all suck big time. There’s really no controversy here. There is this point in your SMAX experience when you need to self-impose serious limitations and play very hard challenges just to give the AI something that resembles a sliver of hope, if only for some turns. And then you’re never afraid of the AI never again under any circumstances, which means it’s high time to join a multiplayer game.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 05, 2012, 03:50:13 PM
Well, in the first AAR he did have naval probes because I messed up and he used his auto marine ability and stole some elite probe skimships from me.

The only way to really help him in this matter is to implement the Darsnan’s idea, putting the destroyer probe team into your alphax.txt file.

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Sven not ICSing?


What do you mean by ICSing? I say you can’t ICS on water at all. There is no point in tight spacing, the price of sea CPs and formers is very high, and there is no high-tech improvements to let you not work but crawl.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 05, 2012, 03:51:01 PM
Actually Lal is very good for ICS too. The extra talent means you can expand more before having to worry about bureaucracy drones.

Agreed (and hello Maniac!), but when you think about it, no particular faction really sucks at ICS. But Lal is the only one to have incentives not to do so.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 05, 2012, 03:54:05 PM
Maybe if you could provide a download of one of those games?  Because as things stand, Sven seems he should be extremely good at research (though his production is low and in an unmodded game he'd be well advised to hurry everything).  With specialists and tidal harnesses (and of course appropriate facilities) he should be able to match anything except heavy ICS.

I was actually referring to my most recent game, PK with a self-imposed rule - no SPs. Sven has 9 bases and 2 points of research. Scary!:)

I'm sorry for the post bombardment, but so many people replied.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 05, 2012, 03:55:53 PM
...I think quintuple-posting was the best way to keep it managable, K...
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 05, 2012, 04:39:04 PM
At +4 effic you can put the labs/econ slider anywhere without inefficiency penalties

That sounds like a strong bonus for Deirdre, but really it isn't.  To get +4 she can't be running Police State or Planned, and of course she can't run Free Market at all, so it only applies when running Simple or Green.  When running Green, she can be running either Frontier, Democratic, or Fundamentalist, but with Democratic/Green anyone without an efficiency penalty can get that +4 effic.
So that's really only a benefit when running Frontier/Green (and who runs simple after the early game?), Fundamentalist/Green (have you ever run fundie as Deirdre?), and Democratic/Simple (also fairly rare after the early game.)
More specifically, that efficiency bonus allows her (and nobody else, except Aki) to get:
1. +4 Efficiency and +2 Growth (even Aki can't get this).
2. +4 Efficiency and neutral support (Miriam can get this too, though she has her own problems.)
3. +4 Efficiency and +2 Probe (Roze can get this too.)
4. +4 Efficiency in the early game (before getting both Ethical Calculus and Centauri Empathy)

So which of those is worth anything near giving up the ability to use Free Market?

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and +3 planet lets you capture a whole lot more worms than +1 which is good however you look at it (pop popping, worm farming, or wormrush).

But anybody else can get +2, which isn't that much worse than +3.  It's an advantage, but not a huge one.

Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to “forest&forget” heavily for several reasons, some of them being that I can’t depend on grabbing WP and on starting on a rainy patch. And when I don’t, I popboom big time only with the advent of EcoEng/EnvEcon, i.e. Condensers and Tree farms. This is midgame and I can be overrun beforehand by a faction with low population and lots of crawled minerals.

That's a reason to forest, but not a reason not to switch it for condensers later on.

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Also, ICS. You may have seen me complaining about air power, CBA or EG but in fact, the worst offender in terms of game-breaking style is ICS.

ICS contributes seriously to the overpoweredness of CBA and EG (if by EG you mean energy grid and not empath guild); it also contributes to the power of the Cyborg Factory, which of course further exacerbates air power.  So yes, ICS is a huge target for any balance mod, and is in fact the one feature most nerfed by the mod I'm planning.  (Some rules, such as weakening recycling tanks and specialists, are primarily designed to weaken ICS; others, such as the ecodamage mod, started with other goals but hurt ICS as a nice side benefit.)

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“I will always test my assumptions in my random last savegame before I post them as facts, whether I’m a prospective modder or not”.  :P No, monoliths do not affect probe teams, as they are non-combat units.

Whoops...so in fact to get probe teams elite before their first mission you still need to run Fundamentalist (or Thought Control in the late game) on top of other stuff...

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There is no faction which is not forced to beeline to IA, unless it is a very specific situation, like you have landed on the top of Usurpers.

Or a fairly small map, where you can rely fairly well on rushing.
Or of course when playing Roze; when everyone else is beelining for something, she doesn't have to, as she's never worse than tied for third to a tech.  (Somehow, it seems appropriate that Roze is well-advised to be contrarian in tech choices.)
But yeah, crawlers are overpowered.

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Same as above. Sure, you can overrun another player if you happen to be placed very close to him. But balanced MP games never do that and you have to assume that your opponents have time to get to midgame relatively undisturbed. Otherwise, what you’re doing is called rush and you may know from Starcraft that it’s a very risky business. If it fails, you’re down.

Firstly, I feel that the best way to get a balanced MP game is just have a random map and random starting positions, and on average it'll be balanced.
If your supposed "balanced MP games" mean that some factions are underpowered, that's not very balanced, is it?  The factions are meant to be balanced on the assumption that you don't know how long you have until you run into any particular faction; that's how the game is meant to be played.

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When I present my opinion on factions, I always assume that you’re not playing settings explicitly beneficial to such a faction. Yes, Cult is a very good faction for a tiny planet with abundant life forms. But put it on the Vets map and it can only cry for help from the Planetmind.

I'd count the Vets map as settings explicitly beneficial to builder factions.  For "default" settings I'd either use the map of Planet (random start positions) with default rules, or a randomly generated map taking the "middle" approach on map customization and with default rules.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Kirov on December 05, 2012, 07:59:25 PM
Seems to me (though I'm unexperienced) that the Believers' best approach might be to use probes as needed for some sort of tech parity

Here is another thing I want to touch upon. For some reason, there is this lingering misconception that factions with positive PROBE setting are somehow better probers; this is not really true! The first and foremost feature of PROBE is a defensive one, the increase in the price of mind control in your bases. Sure, it also gives one probe morale bonus, and it's nice, but it doesn't really change the day. And since probe teams can't be green or very green, Zak is as a good prober as anyone else.

Stealing techs from bases without security lock always works, the morale affects only the chance of survival. So Miriam's hardened probe teams have just 17 percentage points more (from disciplined 100%/50% to 100%/67%) for surviving the mission. Not even close to set off her -1 RESEARCH penalty, and certainly not enough to call her an aggressive prober. With Fundie it's commando for 100%/80% (non-Mirian Fundie factions have veteran probe teams, 100%/75%, so Miriam is better by 5 p.p. here). You still need to get to elite to do more fancy stuff like framing, targetting specific facilities or override the security lock (75%/67%), and that chances are quite low if you ask me.

In my opinion, the best prober is Morgan for his money, and then Roze but for her discount, not PROBE bonus. The rest are more or less the same, with rich builders still better than Miriam.

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That sounds like a strong bonus for Deirdre, but really it isn't.  To get +4 she can't be running Police State or Planned, and of course she can't run Free Market at all, so it only applies when running Simple or Green.  When running Green, she can be running either Frontier, Democratic, or Fundamentalist, but with Democratic/Green anyone without an efficiency penalty can get that +4 effic.

You're right with the SE problem for Gaia, it seems there is no golden SE choice for her. But don't forget that EFFIC higher than 4 is still beneficial. 1) You have more bases without b-drones (I think +2 EFFIC translates into 3 more bases on the medium map). 2) You lose less energy in your distant bases. There is no cap here, I checked and +7 EFFIC (Deirdre/Demo/Green/Knowledge) is better than +6.

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That's a reason to forest, but not a reason not to switch it for condensers later on.

Of course I switch to condensers, but we were talking about something different here, vertical development for Lal. It takes place only in the midgame, that was my point.

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Firstly, I feel that the best way to get a balanced MP game is just have a random map and random starting positions, and on average it'll be balanced.
If your supposed "balanced MP games" mean that some factions are underpowered, that's not very balanced, is it?  The factions are meant to be balanced on the assumption that you don't know how long you have until you run into any particular faction; that's how the game is meant to be played.

This is not that simple. If a Uni player knows there is Miriam nearby, he may prepare very well for her assault or even come to attack her. If Zak lands near a river, he can get IA as early as 2112/13. From there go to 2-1-2 and build crawlers in the meantime. Soon such Zack may have a decent army (and robust early empire) when Miriam just finishes her second former. This is what I meant that you need strong economy to wage wars. Apart maybe from Sparta in some specific conditions, the best monumentum factions are those with good industry, lab or cash.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 05, 2012, 11:38:09 PM
Here is another thing I want to touch upon. For some reason, there is this lingering misconception that factions with positive PROBE setting are somehow better probers; this is not really true!

Actually, I just meant probe to tech parity like anyone could potentially do with enough investment.  That said, there is a minor offensive advantage from morale as you noted.

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And since probe teams can't be green or very green, Zak is as a good prober as anyone else.

Well, he's a bit worse because he can't get a positive Probe rating (anyone else other than Aki can run fundamentalist for +2 if they really need it, and even Aki can eventually run Thought Control for +2; Zak has no way to get more than +0.)  But yeah, the downside of a negative PROBE value is purely defensive.

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Stealing techs from bases without security lock always works, the morale affects only the chance of survival. So Miriam's hardened probe teams have just 17 percentage points more (from disciplined 100%/50% to 100%/67%) for surviving the mission. Not even close to set off her -1 RESEARCH penalty, and certainly not enough to call her an aggressive prober. With Fundie it's commando for 100%/80% (non-Mirian Fundie factions have veteran probe teams, 100%/75%, so Miriam is better by 5 p.p. here). You still need to get to elite to do more fancy stuff like framing, targetting specific facilities or override the security lock (75%/67%), and that chances are quite low if you ask me.

She is more of a tech-steal prober just because she needs it to attain tech parity.  (Of course, once she does she's downright dangerous in a war.)

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In my opinion, the best prober is Morgan for his money, and then Roze but for her discount, not PROBE bonus. The rest are more or less the same, with rich builders still better than Miriam.

I'd put Roze above Morgan; if they both go FM/Wealth Morgan gets +2 energy in the base square and a bit more commerce, but I doubt that will come out to an extra 33% in his available funds for subversion.

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You're right with the SE problem for Gaia, it seems there is no golden SE choice for her. But don't forget that EFFIC higher than 4 is still beneficial. 1) You have more bases without b-drones (I think +2 EFFIC translates into 3 more bases on the medium map).

True; this suggests that nerfing ICS will actually weaken the Gaians, meaning that removing clean minerals (weakens ICS, increases the importance of PLANET rating) will end up working in both directions.

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2) You lose less energy in your distant bases. There is no cap here, I checked and +7 EFFIC (Deirdre/Demo/Green/Knowledge) is better than +6.

True, but unless you've got a very large empire it diminishes significantly after a while.
For a roughly circular empire with area equal to 1/8 the map and all bases producing equivalent raw energy, the difference between +4 EFFIC and +6 EFFIC is roughly 2.4% of your total energy production.

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This is not that simple. If a Uni player knows there is Miriam nearby, he may prepare very well for her assault or even come to attack her.

But he can't know except by exploring...in which case she knows that he's there too.

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If Zak lands near a river, he can get IA as early as 2112/13. From there go to 2-1-2 and build crawlers in the meantime. Soon such Zack may have a decent army (and robust early empire) when Miriam just finishes her second former. This is what I meant that you need strong economy to wage wars. Apart maybe from Sparta in some specific conditions, the best monumentum factions are those with good industry, lab or cash.

I wonder...how would that dynamic change if crawler costs were multiplied by 4, and borehole use made difficult (doable, but not really feasible to have more than 10% of your squares boreholed) until the late game?
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Hagen0 on December 28, 2012, 06:28:15 PM
Some comments. Note I read most of the thread but not everything. Sorry if I say something redundant.

Lals Talents actually disappear if you use specialists. This is due to the fact that talents will be made into specialists before workers and drones. A size 9 Lal base with 3 specialists does not have any less drones than a size 9 base of any other faction (except Zak). This is really devastating. Lals real strength is that he can ICS better than other factions due to his size 1 talent, particurlarly if he is in Free Market. For this reason alone Lal remains a strong faction.

Bureaucracy drones don't get worse under values lower than -2 Efficiency. So yeah, he'd get more bureaucracy drones than a FM ICSer, but still just as much, or less, (depending on his own economics SE) than a Planned ICSer.

Incorrect. Efficiency drones are capped at 0 efficiency not -2.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 28, 2012, 08:53:13 PM
Some comments. Note I read most of the thread but not everything. Sorry if I say something redundant.

Lals Talents actually disappear if you use specialists. This is due to the fact that talents will be made into specialists before workers and drones.

This is not true.  What happens, based on my testing, is that specialists come from workers; if there are no workers (but are both drones and talents) and you try to make a specialist, then a drone and a talent will turn into the specialist and a worker.  So at Transcend, a size 9 Peacekeeper base with 3 specialists will have (before psych/police/facility/project effects) 3 specialists, 1 worker, and 5 drones, whereas a Spartan base will have (before such effects) 3 specialists and 6 drones.  At lower difficulty, it's even more pronounced.
The actual problem with Lal's talent bonus without ICSing is that once you have a few psych-boosting facilities, 1 talent every 4 population really isn't that much of a boost (assuming hologram theater, research hospital, and tree farm, it's the equivalent of only 2/9 energy per population; nice, but not really all that great).  And once you get empaths until you get engineers (and then again once you get transcendi) it's even less.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Hagen0 on December 28, 2012, 11:54:21 PM
Alright, my description of the mechanics is faulty. It's been some time. Your description is correct.

My conclusion, however, stands. Your example actually proves my point. The example Peacekeeper base has one worker, the Spartan base has only normal drones. Thats an advantage of 2 Psych for Lal when he should have 6! Add one more specialist and Lals Psych advantage vanishes entirely. I was only off by one specialist. If you have a single bureaucracy drone the threshhold where Lals Psych advantage disappears drops to 3 specialists.

I also disagree with your point about psych spending. Lals talent bonus would be quite good if he could actually use it in a reasonable way (ie. not completely excluding specialists). For instance, it would mean Lal could boom with less infrastructure than other factions.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 29, 2012, 12:07:00 AM
Welcome to AC2, Hagen.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on December 29, 2012, 11:43:23 PM
Alright, my description of the mechanics is faulty. It's been some time. Your description is correct.

My conclusion, however, stands. Your example actually proves my point. The example Peacekeeper base has one worker, the Spartan base has only normal drones. Thats an advantage of 2 Psych for Lal when he should have 6! Add one more specialist and Lals Psych advantage vanishes entirely.

That's simply because the Spartans (or whoever the non-Lal person is) are benefiting from the fact that when all you've got is drones (before psych/facilities/police), specialists decrease drones.  Which occurs fairly early on Transcend, not so early on easier difficulty levels.

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I also disagree with your point about psych spending. Lals talent bonus would be quite good if he could actually use it in a reasonable way (ie. not completely excluding specialists). For instance, it would mean Lal could boom with less infrastructure than other factions.

Yes, it would make it easier for Lal to boom early...but that doesn't require him to completely remove specialists.  In fact, it's helped by a moderate number of specialists, as more specialists means less drones and less talents, and for booming eliminating drones is often harder (once you get to a decent size) than getting talents.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on January 17, 2013, 11:50:22 PM
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Same as above. Sure, you can overrun another player if you happen to be placed very close to him. But balanced MP games never do that and you have to assume that your opponents have time to get to midgame relatively undisturbed. Otherwise, what you’re doing is called rush and you may know from Starcraft that it’s a very risky business. If it fails, you’re down.

Firstly, I feel that the best way to get a balanced MP game is just have a random map and random starting positions, and on average it'll be balanced.
If your supposed "balanced MP games" mean that some factions are underpowered, that's not very balanced, is it?  The factions are meant to be balanced on the assumption that you don't know how long you have until you run into any particular faction; that's how the game is meant to be played.

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When I present my opinion on factions, I always assume that you’re not playing settings explicitly beneficial to such a faction. Yes, Cult is a very good faction for a tiny planet with abundant life forms. But put it on the Vets map and it can only cry for help from the Planetmind.

I'd count the Vets map as settings explicitly beneficial to builder factions.  For "default" settings I'd either use the map of Planet (random start positions) with default rules, or a randomly generated map taking the "middle" approach on map customization and with default rules.

Have been mulling this over on and off, and I pretty much agree with this assessment. Especially after trying out Cult in a v AI game (large random map, 50%-30% land, several laughably broken enemy factions, middle choices for everything else), I found it remarkably easy to overcome them because I got to much more pods than anyone else, and even though my bases were pretty weak.. I overran one foe quickly, made another surrender, then was in a comfortable position. Killed off the custom alien sea faction, and bullied everyone into a political win. It was a very different game, but it was arguably easier than the standard builder style. And I imagine holding off a well played +4 Planet MW swarm which is constantly replenished for free would be extremely tough challenge even for a human. Of course if it's a long way away without much of a fungal bridge, or separated by sea, then you're going to fall behind and be overwhelmed.

Anyway, I propose having the formula spit out not a single "This Is How Good The Faction Is" result, but spit out several. Most of the comments by MPers here has been very much geared towards the long term peaceful building/teching ability of the factions, so I'll use this it a guide to what the Builder Rating should look like. If I could get some comments about how the factions should be ordered in:

Momentum Rating
Basically, how factions do if they start fairly close on the same landmass, and don't have that much time. They have to depend on only a small number of bases and not many units. Should this be split into offensive and defensive, or are factions good at defending early attacks always roughly equally good at attacking early themselves?

Hybrid Rating
How a faction does if it starts some distance apart on a well connected landmass (no single chokepoint which can be held by the defender) or very closeby on different landmasses. Some time to prepare, but won't have had time to build up fully by the time there's conflict. Same question about splitting between offensive and defensive.


This should more thoroughly reflect the advantages and disadvantages of each faction, since which factions do well depends massively on how quickly the conflict occurs. I'd also like to allow some map variables to influence the ratings. For example, how much native life there is obviously has a massive effect on factions with Planet bonuses, and sea-based factions are happy when they've got more oceans.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on January 18, 2013, 01:41:12 AM
Have been mulling this over on and off, and I pretty much agree with this assessment. Especially after trying out Cult in a v AI game (large random map, 50%-30% land, several laughably broken enemy factions, middle choices for everything else), I found it remarkably easy to overcome them because I got to much more pods than anyone else, and even though my bases were pretty weak.. I overran one foe quickly, made another surrender, then was in a comfortable position. Killed off the custom alien sea faction, and bullied everyone into a political win. It was a very different game, but it was arguably easier than the standard builder style. And I imagine holding off a well played +4 Planet MW swarm which is constantly replenished for free would be extremely tough challenge even for a human. Of course if it's a long way away without much of a fungal bridge, or separated by sea, then you're going to fall behind and be overwhelmed.

Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way.
Also, if you mod the game to make PLANET more important to ecodamage (reduce or remove clean minerals, and increase the general divisor and maybe the mineral divisor as well), then Cult becomes a fairly decent builder faction, as it can run Planned while still keeping low ecodamage.  It's still not a great techer or moneymaker, of course (well, except via planetpearls), but should be able to hold its own until it gets brood pits (and then overruns everything.)

Aliens can be tough for Cult, though, simply because they start with the ability to make resonance-armor units.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: ete on January 18, 2013, 10:12:40 AM
"Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way."
Yep, sure, but this would be based on whether there's early conflict or not. A Cult sitting alone with no one to take over is going to have trouble, even with there super pod popping abilities.

And.. depending on how the mod's done (community involvement and acceptance mostly) there could be an alternate version which ranks factions by power in it.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on January 18, 2013, 04:03:10 PM
"Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way."
Yep, sure, but this would be based on whether there's early conflict or not. A Cult sitting alone with no one to take over is going to have trouble, even with there super pod popping abilities.

True, although later in the game their disadvantages become less significant (as Market becomes less powerful as compared to Green), but the absence of early conflict definitely favors builder factions.  (Of course, a Cult sitting alone with no one to take over still could do well if all the builder factions find themselves near people who want to take them over, although Yang is quite good at early-game defense while still being a better builder than the Cult.)
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Earthmichael on January 19, 2013, 06:05:42 AM
I am late chiming in here, but this is my view:

Teir 0: Caretakers, Usurpers

Either of the aliens under human control is much more powerful than any other faction by a large margin.  They are definitely stronger than Uni; I would be happy to play someone 1 on 1 who thinks otherwise.  Normally banned from multiplayer games.

Tier 1: Uni

Nobody researches better at the start of the game than Uni.  Faster research means faster to Planned and Wealth, earlier Crawlers, earlier Recycling Centers, etc.

Tier 2A: Aki, Morgan

These are the next best researchers.  Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability  to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.

Tier 2B: Pirates

On any map with sufficient water, Pirates can be very effective, particularly if the start for all of the players includes a couple of colony pods, a former, and a scout.  (With a single pod start I would downgrade them by a tier.)  Water bases start off with a free pressure dome (recycling center), giving them an extra 1/1/1 from turn 1.  And with the speed of the colony pods, there is no reason not to put colony pods on or near the special resources. Pirates typically have an easier time contacting the other factions, providing early tech trade and treaty/pact energy. 

Pirates have an easier with defense, since few players can commit many resources to the sea and still maintain a land force.  Also, sea bases cannot be taken with land or normal air dropped units, so even if copters kill the defenders, the attacker must still bring a ship or marine to capture the base.  With a mostly water map with small islands, Pirates dominate, and would be rated as tier 1. 

I personally prefer to ban Pirates from most multiplayer games, although I once played a very fun 4 player game where all 4 players were Pirates.  The reason for this ban is that the Pirates often intentionally foster rising water levels by ecodamage and atrocities, and I hate the micromanagement necessary to deal with rising water.

Tier 3A: Drones, Hive

Drones and Hive can build like nobody else, but it takes them forever to research something useful to build, and you can only build so many colony pods before the drone penalty makes it impossible to expand further.  If they can team up with someone who will feed them some early techs, they can become unstoppable, and I would rate them tier 1.  I saw one scenario where Hive was given Planetary Datalinks at the start, which mitigates their main disadvantage.

Tier 3B: Gaia

Gaia can be pretty powerful, especially on a map with lots of fungus and lots of lifeforms.  The efficiency bonus can allow a shift to 100% research with either Democracy or Green.  A 75% chance of capture with Green is very nice, along with a 100% chance of first capture.

Tier 4: PK, Angels

These can be good factions if you bring their strengths to bear, but they don't have anything to boost them much in the early game.  Angels benefit from a small map where they can put their probe ability to use early.

Tier 5: Spartans, Believers

These factions need someone to kill early.  Otherwise, the researchers and builders will be too built up for a successful attack.  On a small map, they can be good, but otherwise, the production penalty and research penalty, respectively, weaken them too much.

Tier 6: Prophets

Huge penalties without much to show for them.  In most any circumstance I can envision, Gaia would be a better choice.  Even on the most favorable map, with heavy fungus and native life, this faction just does not measure up.

AI:

The AI stink with any faction.  If you give the AI a hugely powerful faction like the aliens, and plant them close to a human player so that they can pound on the human player before he gets a chance to really build, then they can be a threat.  Otherwise, any AI player is just fodder for human takeover.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on January 20, 2013, 12:13:51 AM
Normally banned from multiplayer games.

Although as an alternative when it's not 1v1, you could just ban them from cooperative victory and the very fact that they're so powerful will make them a threat that people will form alliances to stop (or at least knock down).

Quote
Tier 2A: Aki, Morgan

These are the next best researchers.  Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability  to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.

Actually, Morgan can shift to 100% research as well once he gets Green; he still ends up as a weaker researcher than Aki, though, since he then needs to run Wealth to get +1 energy/square, and Aki can run Knowledge for a total of +40% research.

However, with enough treaties/pacts and Global Trade Pact, I think Morgan can actually become a better researcher than Zak (though not in the early game), and even Aki beats him only because she can run 100% and in order to do the same he has to lower himself to his native +1 Commerce boost.

Quote
Tier 2B: Pirates

On any map with sufficient water, Pirates can be very effective, particularly if the start for all of the players includes a couple of colony pods, a former, and a scout.  (With a single pod start I would downgrade them by a tier.)  Water bases start off with a free pressure dome (recycling center), giving them an extra 1/1/1 from turn 1.  And with the speed of the colony pods, there is no reason not to put colony pods on or near the special resources. Pirates typically have an easier time contacting the other factions, providing early tech trade and treaty/pact energy. 

And of course sea squares can be extremely high-value (beating out land squares before Advanced Ecological Engineering.)  I think sometime I might want to play against you, Pirates vs. University, with global warming removed and no other mods, to see how things play out.

Quote
If they can team up with someone who will feed them some early techs, they can become unstoppable, and I would rate them tier 1.

Nastiest of all is Aki/Drones; Aki feeds the Drones tech, the Drones feed Aki built-up and high-population bases.

Quote
Angels benefit from a small map where they can put their probe ability to use early.

Angels are also a lot stronger with more players (especially high-research ones), allowing their techshare ability to really come in well (they can either run 70% ECONOMY to fund probe team action and let techshare put them around the middle, or run 70% LABS and avoid the usual beelines, letting them get a lot of tech by getting half of it from everyone else.)

Quote
These factions need someone to kill early.  Otherwise, the researchers and builders will be too built up for a successful attack.  On a small map, they can be good, but otherwise, the production penalty and research penalty, respectively, weaken them too much.

Spartans actually can do fairly well even without someone to kill early, as long as the researchers and builders (except Yang) have someone to kill them early.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Earthmichael on January 20, 2013, 01:04:22 AM
Quote
Tier 2A: Aki, Morgan

These are the next best researchers.  Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability  to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.

Actually, Morgan can shift to 100% research as well once he gets Green; he still ends up as a weaker researcher than Aki, though, since he then needs to run Wealth to get +1 energy/square, and Aki can run Knowledge for a total of +40% research.


However, with enough treaties/pacts and Global Trade Pact, I think Morgan can actually become a better researcher than Zak (though not in the early game), and even Aki beats him only because she can run 100% and in order to do the same he has to lower himself to his native +1 Commerce boost.

Aki can run either FM/Wealth/Democracy  (which provides a 10% production bonus), or FM/Knowledge/Democracy, both at !00% labs.  The Knowledge choice will probably provide a bit more research (easy to temporarily shift from one to another and check the lab status to see how much is gained), but the Wealth choice gets a 10% production bonus, so you have to weigh out your situation and see which one you want more.  EIther way, the combination of FM and 100% labs makes for a great researcher!

If Morgan shifts to Democracy/Green/Knowledge, to run 100% labs, he comes up short compared to Aki running Democracy/FM/Knowledge by 20% I believe.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yitzi on January 20, 2013, 02:47:38 AM
Aki can run either FM/Wealth/Democracy  (which provides a 10% production bonus), or FM/Knowledge/Democracy, both at !00% labs.  The Knowledge choice will probably provide a bit more research (easy to temporarily shift from one to another and check the lab status to see how much is gained), but the Wealth choice gets a 10% production bonus, so you have to weigh out your situation and see which one you want more.  EIther way, the combination of FM and 100% labs makes for a great researcher!

Definitely; after the early game, she's the best researcher in the game.

Quote
If Morgan shifts to Democracy/Green/Knowledge, to run 100% labs, he comes up short compared to Aki running Democracy/FM/Knowledge by 20% I believe.

Quite a bit more, as he also doesn't get +1 energy per square that way.  To keep that +1 energy per square without running FM, he has to run Wealth, which puts him 40% behind Aki.  (He does, however, get better commerce, though it's not enough.)
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: WeMustConsentAI on March 09, 2021, 12:34:03 PM
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.

1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. High
populations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).
2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.
3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])
4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)
5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.
6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.
7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])
9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.
10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.
11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.

These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: WeMustConsentAI on March 10, 2021, 12:00:07 PM
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.

1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. High
populations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).
2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.
3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])
4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)
5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.
6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.
7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])
9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.
10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.
11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.

These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

Edit: Since GROWTH doesn't stack after +6, this means that having Eudemonia as anyone who can use both Democratic & Planned and doesn't have an automatic -1 GROWTH doesn't really make sense, since building Children's Creches after that will then trigger an automatic pop-boom in those bases. For either Morgan Industries, the Cyborgs, the Pirates or the Human Hive, use whichever early to mid game system/s aren't/isn't your Aversion plus Eudemonia once you can get it. Just remember to build the Creches. Eudemonia, Planned and Wealth in combination is a guaranteed +4 INDUSTRY. As the Hive, it's an absurd +5. As the Drones, it becomes +6; but that's a moot point because it doesn't stack after +5. You also forgot to mention the -2 RESEARCH of the Drones; they share this disadvantage with the Believers. However, the Drones can still use Knowledge; whereas the Believers cannot. Therefore, the Believers can't possibly have >0 RESEARCH; while the Drones can never reach >+2 RESEARCH. Since the Cult & the Spartans can't use Wealth and have -1 INDUSTRY from the get-go, they can't have >+2 INDUSTRY.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: WeMustConsentAI on March 10, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.

1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. High
populations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).
2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.
3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])
4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)
5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.
6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.
7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])
9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.
10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.
11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.

These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

Edit: Since GROWTH doesn't stack after +6, this means that having Eudemonia as anyone who can use both Democratic & Planned and doesn't have an automatic -1 GROWTH doesn't really make sense, since building Children's Creches after that will then trigger an automatic pop-boom in those bases. For either Morgan Industries, the Cyborgs, the Pirates or the Human Hive, use whichever early to mid game system/s aren't/isn't your Aversion plus Eudemonia once you can get it. Just remember to build the Creches. Eudemonia, Planned and Wealth in combination is a guaranteed +4 INDUSTRY. As the Hive, it's an absurd +5. As the Drones, it becomes +6; but that's a moot point because it doesn't stack after +5. You also forgot to mention the -2 RESEARCH of the Drones; they share this disadvantage with the Believers. However, the Drones can still use Knowledge; whereas the Believers cannot. Therefore, the Believers can't possibly have >0 RESEARCH; while the Drones can never reach >+2 RESEARCH. Since the Cult & the Spartans can't use Wealth and have -1 INDUSTRY from the get-go, they can't have >+2 INDUSTRY.
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

Sorry about the abrupt end to my edit there. I was starting to run out of time. Continuing on from where I left off, I've finally covered the most critical aspects of a successful game (i.e. EFFICIENCY, ECONOMY, RESEARCH, INDUSTRY, PLANET, etc.). According to this, there's no way for the Drones to get >+2 PLANET, making them the most ecologically destructive faction overall (not good to include with crazy-high population growth, mind-numbing-high economic output and outrageous industrial might; especially when trying to fully optimize the RNG/AI so as to get the highest possible scores). On the other hand, the ecological reinforcements don't stack after +3 PLANET; making both the Gaians & the Cult here a liability.

Moving on however, at least a single war is guaranteed in a game as complex as this; no matter how reluctant you are to use force. Therefore, we now need to cover MORALE and SUPPORT above all else. The Spartans gain +2 MORALE right off the bat. Power Values give them +4 MORALE total. This bonus doesn't stack after that however, so Thought Control is watered down even more; unless you'd rather have the extra POLICE and PROBE w/o the hit to RESEARCH and/or EFFICIENCY. Alternatively, the EFFICIENCY hit to Police State is a better trade-off; since Probe Teams aren't that great anyway. Of course, you could just sacrifice the extra SUPPORT from Power Values in exchange as well. (The Cloning Vats negate the -3 SUPPORT from Thought Control, and -2 INDUSTRY from Power anyway.) [The extra SUPPORT from the Police State is typically enough as it is, anyhow.]

Meanwhile, the Believers gain +25% Attack, and +2 SUPPORT. Therefore, either Power or the Police State is guaranteed to take them above the +3 threshold, whereas any other faction would need both of these systems to have either +4 or +3 SUPPORT.

Now for extra MORALE specifics: with both Power & Thought Control, you can easily achieve +4 MORALE as any other faction, and +3 as the Gaians.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: WeMustConsentAI on April 02, 2021, 03:29:32 AM
Actually, scratch. You were right all along about the Market Economy. You definitely need it to win at Specialist Difficulty and higher, especially in the One City Challenge. (Yet another strike against Deirdre!)
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Yuri_Yslin on April 26, 2021, 04:09:41 PM
I do not have much experience with multiplayer sadly so this is mostly vs lackluster Transcendent AI.

S Tier: Pirates and Aliens

Pirates literally start very safe, far from being harassed by the worms & AI. AI rarely (if ever) goes to sea and it takes ages for them to get their first sea town so you can pretty much expand peacefully all over the map, unless you start at a small pond between land masses (in which case you're screwed). And because of the +1 minerals, even your wimpiest sea bases actually can develop grow well without resource stagnation and I think it's one of the only factions that can actually skip ICS and attempt to create spread-out bases because working sea tiles give you +5 food/+4 energy/+1 minerals which is usually better than small towns spamming specialists, at least for me. The only thing they kinda suck at is getting pop booms, everything else feels comfy and you always feel at an advantage.

The aliens start with massive tech advantage, they are powerful in combat, and can direct tech. From what I have seen they are the best faction vs. humans. Vs. AI it is easier for me to start at the sea so I value pirates more, but I can't deny how good it feels to be able to direct research. Perhaps I need to start disabling blind tech in my games.

A+ Tier: University

I mean, Zak only needs virtual world asap to deal with his drone problems, and then he can get far ahead in science, gets everything important 1st like crawlers or important wonders and he can snowball from there.

A: Peacekeepers, Cyborgs, Hive

Lal is one of the best ICSers around on Transcendent, and is the easiest one to win with due to easy diplo victory through his faction bonus. He can get his ICSed bases bigger and better, and thus outperform other ICSers with less effort.

Aki is like Zak but struggles with ICSing due to limited pop boom and doesn't get free +50% psych from the bases so her benefits start shining later on, and earlier=better.

Hive creates strong towns from the bat due to free perimeter defense which allows them to ICS even during wars, the -1 energy per base doesn't seem to matter that much when you can build stuff faster. Not my favorite faction but it seems to be rather good at stuff.

B: Morgan, Gaians, Drones

A weird case of a leader who benefits from pop booms but can't easily get them because he can't get planned. But he can get +1 sq energy without the cumbersome free market, just going for wealth, so his bases tend to generate a ton of power and he can easily outperform Aki or even Zak in research. He is however really tiresome to play, pretty much 100% ICS spam-cities-everywhere kind of playstyle and after your 50th city I just can't handle it anymore.

Gaians at least have a pretty leader with a pleasant voice, and can ICS well, but the -1 morale seriously pisses me off whenever I'm going for worms, though it probably doesn't matter that much.

Drones are not my cup of coffee, I always feel annoyed by them being behind the tech and needing to meticulously ICS like mad to get the best out of +2 Industry and -1 drones at bases. But I can't deny they are good at ICS-ing in general.

C: Angels, Believers, Spartans

I was excited for a spy-related faction 20 years ago as a kid when I first heard of an expansion for SMAC, but what I got was fairly disappointing and I am still not very happy with the result. All Roze really gets is -25% cost for probe missions and better odds at running away. Morgan is IMHO the better spy faction because he has much more money, which is decisive in the end.

Spartans and especially Believers really need someone to kill near them, otherwise they quickly fall behind others (Believers in particular) and lose their combat advantage offering nothing in return.

D: Cult

+1 on the planet side compared to Gaians isn't worth losing 1 eco and 1 industry. His bonuses feel pointless (double police duty for mind worms - umm, how about building a nonlethal method unit, same thing?, free brood pit takes ages because Centauri Genetics are quite a late tech) and all of that for what, +2 to planet that caps out at 3 anyway so going Green overkills it. Why would I want this guy over Gaians for a worm based game puzzles me.


In general I rate pirates high because I can play a game without being forced to do super heavy ICS which tends to be overwhelming and not fun at all. Pirates can do great with 10-15 cities and just feeding energy to a exchange+supercollider+theory of everything city to get ridiculous research rates without managing 50 towns like Morgan has to. I believe 1 crawler working a tidal generator would produce almost 40 labs in such a city with +70% research slider, which is kinda amazing.


I kinda wish there was a mod that imposes heavier ICS penalties to make going-tall viable (like Civ5), while modyfing the AI, but not changing other stuff.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: Nexii on September 27, 2021, 09:58:50 AM
I've found that reducing facility costs while increasing colony pod costs helps some with countering ICS. Especially the Hab Complex/Dome

Though even then, expanding all over is still a dominant strategy
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: WeMustConsentAI on March 16, 2022, 05:55:19 PM
I do not have much experience with multiplayer sadly so this is mostly vs lackluster Transcendent AI.

S Tier: Pirates and Aliens

Pirates literally start very safe, far from being harassed by the worms & AI. AI rarely (if ever) goes to sea and it takes ages for them to get their first sea town so you can pretty much expand peacefully all over the map, unless you start at a small pond between land masses (in which case you're screwed). And because of the +1 minerals, even your wimpiest sea bases actually can develop grow well without resource stagnation and I think it's one of the only factions that can actually skip ICS and attempt to create spread-out bases because working sea tiles give you +5 food/+4 energy/+1 minerals which is usually better than small towns spamming specialists, at least for me. The only thing they kinda suck at is getting pop booms, everything else feels comfy and you always feel at an advantage.

The aliens start with massive tech advantage, they are powerful in combat, and can direct tech. From what I have seen they are the best faction vs. humans. Vs. AI it is easier for me to start at the sea so I value pirates more, but I can't deny how good it feels to be able to direct research. Perhaps I need to start disabling blind tech in my games.

A+ Tier: University

I mean, Zak only needs virtual world asap to deal with his drone problems, and then he can get far ahead in science, gets everything important 1st like crawlers or important wonders and he can snowball from there.

A: Peacekeepers, Cyborgs, Hive

Lal is one of the best ICSers around on Transcendent, and is the easiest one to win with due to easy diplo victory through his faction bonus. He can get his ICSed bases bigger and better, and thus outperform other ICSers with less effort.

Aki is like Zak but struggles with ICSing due to limited pop boom and doesn't get free +50% psych from the bases so her benefits start shining later on, and earlier=better.

Hive creates strong towns from the bat due to free perimeter defense which allows them to ICS even during wars, the -1 energy per base doesn't seem to matter that much when you can build stuff faster. Not my favorite faction but it seems to be rather good at stuff.

B: Morgan, Gaians, Drones

A weird case of a leader who benefits from pop booms but can't easily get them because he can't get planned. But he can get +1 sq energy without the cumbersome free market, just going for wealth, so his bases tend to generate a ton of power and he can easily outperform Aki or even Zak in research. He is however really tiresome to play, pretty much 100% ICS spam-cities-everywhere kind of playstyle and after your 50th city I just can't handle it anymore.

Gaians at least have a pretty leader with a pleasant voice, and can ICS well, but the -1 morale seriously pisses me off whenever I'm going for worms, though it probably doesn't matter that much.

Drones are not my cup of coffee, I always feel annoyed by them being behind the tech and needing to meticulously ICS like mad to get the best out of +2 Industry and -1 drones at bases. But I can't deny they are good at ICS-ing in general.

C: Angels, Believers, Spartans

I was excited for a spy-related faction 20 years ago as a kid when I first heard of an expansion for SMAC, but what I got was fairly disappointing and I am still not very happy with the result. All Roze really gets is -25% cost for probe missions and better odds at running away. Morgan is IMHO the better spy faction because he has much more money, which is decisive in the end.

Spartans and especially Believers really need someone to kill near them, otherwise they quickly fall behind others (Believers in particular) and lose their combat advantage offering nothing in return.

D: Cult

+1 on the planet side compared to Gaians isn't worth losing 1 eco and 1 industry. His bonuses feel pointless (double police duty for mind worms - umm, how about building a nonlethal method unit, same thing?, free brood pit takes ages because Centauri Genetics are quite a late tech) and all of that for what, +2 to planet that caps out at 3 anyway so going Green overkills it. Why would I want this guy over Gaians for a worm based game puzzles me.


In general I rate pirates high because I can play a game without being forced to do super heavy ICS which tends to be overwhelming and not fun at all. Pirates can do great with 10-15 cities and just feeding energy to a exchange+supercollider+theory of everything city to get ridiculous research rates without managing 50 towns like Morgan has to. I believe 1 crawler working a tidal generator would produce almost 40 labs in such a city with +70% research slider, which is kinda amazing.


I kinda wish there was a mod that imposes heavier ICS penalties to make going-tall viable (like Civ5), while modyfing the AI, but not changing other stuff.

The Alien Crossfire expansion baffles me, so I don't play it heavily (yet). This leaves my
ranking for the original factions.

Rank S: University

Again, I shouldn't have to explain this for experienced, power-hungry empire builders.

Rank A: Peacekeepers

Nearly Zak's tech edge, and higher and happier population; what more need I say here?

Rank B: Gaians and Morganites

In all my One City Challenge experience, I have only used Lal, Zak, and Morgan. Deirdre
is only good for standard games.

Rank C: Hive

If you're desperate to win militarily, Yang is the way to go. Otherwise, there are better
nations to play.

Rank D: Believers and Spartans
 
As always, you must move lightning quick to destroy your foes before they get off the
ground. Otherwise, they're going to overwhelm you. Yep, still no good.
Title: Re: Faction ranking
Post by: magic9mushroom on May 30, 2023, 07:37:14 AM
all of that for what, +2 to planet that caps out at 3 anyway so going Green overkills it. Why would I want this guy over Gaians for a worm based game puzzles me.

The advantages boil down to:

1) Easier worm snowball. At game start Cha has a pre-captured worm and 45.5% capture chance for the second; Deirdre has to get the first naturally (though it's a guaranteed capture) and 22.75% capture chance for the second. Once they get Centauri Empathy they both have 75% base chance, but Centauri Empathy takes time and time is the enemy of worm rushes (because of Hypnotic Trance and the softcap on capturing worms).
2) Speaking of Centauri Empathy, Cha quite literally has a head-start on that, because he starts with Social Psych and thus needs only 3 more techs to unlock it while Deirdre needs 4. Certainly, he has an econ and industry penalty working against him on that, but he also has more money to rush-build things due to the greater number of worms trawling through fungus.
3) While ecodamage reduction maxes out at +2 PLANET and worm capture maxes out at +3, +4 PLANET does give +40% to psi-attacks.

Cha is definitely a better worm-rusher than Deirdre (though it's more questionable whether he's better than H'minee). Still, the price he pays for that is very large, and so I agree he's not as good a faction choice overall.
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