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Alright, my description of the mechanics is faulty. It's been some time. Your description is correct.My conclusion, however, stands. Your example actually proves my point. The example Peacekeeper base has one worker, the Spartan base has only normal drones. Thats an advantage of 2 Psych for Lal when he should have 6! Add one more specialist and Lals Psych advantage vanishes entirely.
I also disagree with your point about psych spending. Lals talent bonus would be quite good if he could actually use it in a reasonable way (ie. not completely excluding specialists). For instance, it would mean Lal could boom with less infrastructure than other factions.
QuoteSame as above. Sure, you can overrun another player if you happen to be placed very close to him. But balanced MP games never do that and you have to assume that your opponents have time to get to midgame relatively undisturbed. Otherwise, what you’re doing is called rush and you may know from Starcraft that it’s a very risky business. If it fails, you’re down.Firstly, I feel that the best way to get a balanced MP game is just have a random map and random starting positions, and on average it'll be balanced.If your supposed "balanced MP games" mean that some factions are underpowered, that's not very balanced, is it? The factions are meant to be balanced on the assumption that you don't know how long you have until you run into any particular faction; that's how the game is meant to be played.QuoteWhen I present my opinion on factions, I always assume that you’re not playing settings explicitly beneficial to such a faction. Yes, Cult is a very good faction for a tiny planet with abundant life forms. But put it on the Vets map and it can only cry for help from the Planetmind.I'd count the Vets map as settings explicitly beneficial to builder factions. For "default" settings I'd either use the map of Planet (random start positions) with default rules, or a randomly generated map taking the "middle" approach on map customization and with default rules.
Same as above. Sure, you can overrun another player if you happen to be placed very close to him. But balanced MP games never do that and you have to assume that your opponents have time to get to midgame relatively undisturbed. Otherwise, what you’re doing is called rush and you may know from Starcraft that it’s a very risky business. If it fails, you’re down.
When I present my opinion on factions, I always assume that you’re not playing settings explicitly beneficial to such a faction. Yes, Cult is a very good faction for a tiny planet with abundant life forms. But put it on the Vets map and it can only cry for help from the Planetmind.
Have been mulling this over on and off, and I pretty much agree with this assessment. Especially after trying out Cult in a v AI game (large random map, 50%-30% land, several laughably broken enemy factions, middle choices for everything else), I found it remarkably easy to overcome them because I got to much more pods than anyone else, and even though my bases were pretty weak.. I overran one foe quickly, made another surrender, then was in a comfortable position. Killed off the custom alien sea faction, and bullied everyone into a political win. It was a very different game, but it was arguably easier than the standard builder style. And I imagine holding off a well played +4 Planet MW swarm which is constantly replenished for free would be extremely tough challenge even for a human. Of course if it's a long way away without much of a fungal bridge, or separated by sea, then you're going to fall behind and be overwhelmed.
"Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way."Yep, sure, but this would be based on whether there's early conflict or not. A Cult sitting alone with no one to take over is going to have trouble, even with there super pod popping abilities.
Normally banned from multiplayer games.
Tier 2A: Aki, MorganThese are the next best researchers. Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.
Tier 2B: PiratesOn any map with sufficient water, Pirates can be very effective, particularly if the start for all of the players includes a couple of colony pods, a former, and a scout. (With a single pod start I would downgrade them by a tier.) Water bases start off with a free pressure dome (recycling center), giving them an extra 1/1/1 from turn 1. And with the speed of the colony pods, there is no reason not to put colony pods on or near the special resources. Pirates typically have an easier time contacting the other factions, providing early tech trade and treaty/pact energy.
If they can team up with someone who will feed them some early techs, they can become unstoppable, and I would rate them tier 1.
Angels benefit from a small map where they can put their probe ability to use early.
These factions need someone to kill early. Otherwise, the researchers and builders will be too built up for a successful attack. On a small map, they can be good, but otherwise, the production penalty and research penalty, respectively, weaken them too much.
Quote from: Earthmichael on January 19, 2013, 06:05:42 AMQuoteTier 2A: Aki, MorganThese are the next best researchers. Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.Actually, Morgan can shift to 100% research as well once he gets Green; he still ends up as a weaker researcher than Aki, though, since he then needs to run Wealth to get +1 energy/square, and Aki can run Knowledge for a total of +40% research.However, with enough treaties/pacts and Global Trade Pact, I think Morgan can actually become a better researcher than Zak (though not in the early game), and even Aki beats him only because she can run 100% and in order to do the same he has to lower himself to his native +1 Commerce boost.
QuoteTier 2A: Aki, MorganThese are the next best researchers. Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.
Aki can run either FM/Wealth/Democracy (which provides a 10% production bonus), or FM/Knowledge/Democracy, both at !00% labs. The Knowledge choice will probably provide a bit more research (easy to temporarily shift from one to another and check the lab status to see how much is gained), but the Wealth choice gets a 10% production bonus, so you have to weigh out your situation and see which one you want more. EIther way, the combination of FM and 100% labs makes for a great researcher!
If Morgan shifts to Democracy/Green/Knowledge, to run 100% labs, he comes up short compared to Aki running Democracy/FM/Knowledge by 20% I believe.
For multiplayer:1. Morgan and University2. Peacekeepers and Drones3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans5. CultEconomic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.
Quote from: Maniac on December 04, 2012, 01:30:47 PMFor multiplayer:1. Morgan and University2. Peacekeepers and Drones3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans5. CultEconomic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. Highpopulations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.
Quote from: WeMustConsentAI on March 09, 2021, 12:34:03 PMQuote from: Maniac on December 04, 2012, 01:30:47 PMFor multiplayer:1. Morgan and University2. Peacekeepers and Drones3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans5. CultEconomic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. Highpopulations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary. Quote from: Maniac on December 04, 2012, 01:30:47 PMFor multiplayer:1. Morgan and University2. Peacekeepers and Drones3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans5. CultEconomic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.Edit: Since GROWTH doesn't stack after +6, this means that having Eudemonia as anyone who can use both Democratic & Planned and doesn't have an automatic -1 GROWTH doesn't really make sense, since building Children's Creches after that will then trigger an automatic pop-boom in those bases. For either Morgan Industries, the Cyborgs, the Pirates or the Human Hive, use whichever early to mid game system/s aren't/isn't your Aversion plus Eudemonia once you can get it. Just remember to build the Creches. Eudemonia, Planned and Wealth in combination is a guaranteed +4 INDUSTRY. As the Hive, it's an absurd +5. As the Drones, it becomes +6; but that's a moot point because it doesn't stack after +5. You also forgot to mention the -2 RESEARCH of the Drones; they share this disadvantage with the Believers. However, the Drones can still use Knowledge; whereas the Believers cannot. Therefore, the Believers can't possibly have >0 RESEARCH; while the Drones can never reach >+2 RESEARCH. Since the Cult & the Spartans can't use Wealth and have -1 INDUSTRY from the get-go, they can't have >+2 INDUSTRY.