Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Command Nexus => Topic started by: Kirov on December 02, 2012, 07:36:25 PM

Title: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 02, 2012, 07:36:25 PM
Hello guys,

With Eartmichael we decided to give it a try to a challenge and we could use a CMN. Since we play the Vets map, it seems like quick job. Our settings:

-   Earthmichael plays Aki-Zeta in the NE corner of the ring
-   I take Morgan to SW
-   other factions: 2 aliens in the two left starting positions, not really augmented (maybe they could a small patch of forest to spread and CentEco)
-   us: 2 colony pods, 2 formers, 4 scouts each

other settings: I guess map visible, no random events, no supply pods. Obviously no tech stagnation and no blind research. Earthmichael, where do you stand on Spoils of War? Usually I play with it, but I’m OK either way.

Special house rules: CBA and choppers banned, atrocities banned except for bas obliteration.

We want to make it ladder, unless it’s not allowed to have additional house rules then.

Earthmichael, apart from spoils – what about stockpile energy, crawler upgrading and reverse engineering? For me it’s yes, no and no, respectively.

Please help us for karma and experience points! :)
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Earthmichael on December 02, 2012, 09:50:39 PM
I would like Spoils Of War off.  It nullifies one of Aki's main abilities.  If based on this, you want to switch to Aki, then I will still take Morgan.

Yes, on giving the aliens some extra forest and CentEco. 

If you mean crawler upgrading by energy or rushing, then I am good with banning this; it is definitely trying to cheap out on wonders.  But I will want to build any kind of crawler I want, such as a fast crawler or sea crawler, as long as I build the entire thing without any energy or rushing at all.

I don't know what the stockpile energy exploit is?  Can you explain? 

I am also OK with no reverse engineering, but I am not sure that it is very important.  The most that I have ever done is use a probe team to make a speed 2 scout early game, before I have doctrine mobility.  This does not seem like a big deal.  Are there other ways that reverse engineering can be exploited to greater effect?

Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 02, 2012, 10:17:36 PM
I would like Spoils Of War off.  It nullifies one of Aki's main abilities.  If based on this, you want to switch to Aki, then I will still take Morgan.

You're right. No problem, spoils off, we stay as we are.

Quote
If you mean crawler upgrading by energy or rushing, then I am good with banning this; it is definitely trying to cheap out on wonders.  But I will want to build any kind of crawler I want, such as a fast crawler or sea crawler, as long as I build the entire thing without any energy or rushing at all.

Rushbuying crawlers is usually allowed, the problem arises when you build a basic crawler and then upgrade it to a better deal for cheap. It's OK to build any crawler you want, I use rovers and trawlers as well. You can rushbuy them, too, just don't upgrade them to armored/special ability ones before cashing to wonders (I guess I would agree to upgrade a field crawler to defend a tile, just promise not to cash it to SP).

Quote
I don't know what the stockpile energy exploit is?  Can you explain? 

This is not really an exploit, just the game is slightly inconsistent here. When you complete a facility, you get cash as if you stockpiled energy for this last turn of building. However, this does not apply to units. You must insert stockpile energy to the queue after a unit to get the same effect. It's tedious and I was usually against this, but it really can help monumentum factions, so nowadays I'm support it as a means of balance.

So basically if you agree, remember to insert stockpile energy after any kind of unit you build. Then you'll get money in the same way as it already works for facilities.

Quote
I am also OK with no reverse engineering, but I am not sure that it is very important.  The most that I have ever done is use a probe team to make a speed 2 scout early game, before I have doctrine mobility.  This does not seem like a big deal.  Are there other ways that reverse engineering can be exploited to greater effect?

When a prober subverts an 8-1-2 clean unit, he may only build this particular kind of unit. However, it is possible to use the workshop to put that A8 or clean into other units you want. So I'm against it for obvious purposes, it was never meant to work like that.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: funbot on December 03, 2012, 03:45:08 AM
This is not really an exploit, just the game is slightly inconsistent here. When you complete a facility, you get cash as if you stockpiled energy for this last turn of building. However, this does not apply to units. You must insert stockpile energy to the queue after a unit to get the same effect. It's tedious and I was usually against this, but it really can help monumentum factions, so nowadays I'm support it as a means of balance.

So basically if you agree, remember to insert stockpile energy after any kind of unit you build. Then you'll get money in the same way as it already works for facilities.

Oh thats how that goes? Oh crap, i though you Shouldnt put energy stockpile on the queue -_-'. Well, i must be first to admit that i've exploited this one a bit in WW-game already, will get it sorted right away in upcoming turns. Sry, i though googling was enough, but gues u also need to Understand what u read too  :-[

--edit--

Or no, wait.. Uuuh, i got confused now..
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 03, 2012, 04:09:49 AM
http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_buglist.shtml (http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_buglist.shtml)

44. If a base completes construction of a facility or secret project and its build queue is empty, then for that turn the base will accumulate energy as if production had been set to stockpile energy in addition to accumulating the usual amount of minerals.

45. If a base completes construction of a unit and its build queue contains stockpile energy as the next item to build, then for that turn the base will accumulate energy as if production had been set to stockpile energy in addition to accumulating the usual amount of minerals.

Soo... I'm right, ain't I?  ??? This rule was always confusing, now you confused me, funbot. ;)
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 03, 2012, 04:14:06 AM
http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/135532-Stockpile-Energy-Bug-Facilities-and-SP (http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/135532-Stockpile-Energy-Bug-Facilities-and-SP)

Yep, now I'm quite sure I'm right. To quote Chaos Theory:

Quote
The only time you don't get extra ECs from finishing a facility is if another build order besides stockpile energy is after it in the queue. The only time you do get extra ECs from finishing a unit is if stockpile energy is after it in the queue.


and Straybow:

Quote
Your confusion is because of the default production. When building a unit the default after completion is to build another unit, and so the queue is never empty. With a facility you can't build another, so the queue is empty by default.

If you have an item in queue you don't get the energy after building a facility.


Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Yitzi on December 03, 2012, 04:18:41 AM
Speaking of cheap crawler-project tricks, you might also want to ban building a project by using crawlers that were built before you had the prerequisite tech for the project.  That way a project won't automatically go to whoever gets the prerequisite tech first.

Also, you might want to consider allowing atrocities only if you have nonnegative Police rating (essentially making it the same as nerve stapling).  That way they're still technically allowed, but not under FM.  (While not relevant in this game, it's also a nice rule for weakening Deirdre slightly, as she starts out with negative POLICE.)
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Earthmichael on December 03, 2012, 05:40:08 AM
Thanks for the explanations!  OK, I agree with everything.  I will just have to remember the stockpile energy thing, since I have never inserted this in the queue before.

But now to repeat the big question: Will someone CMN for us?

Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: t_ras on December 03, 2012, 10:34:38 AM
I'll take care. But Im a little bussy,so you'll have it next sunday.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 03, 2012, 07:14:32 PM
No problem, I'm more busy than usual these weeks, so I can wait.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Yitzi on December 03, 2012, 08:44:47 PM
Question: How would you deal with the Stockpile Energy issue if you ruled "no", but someone actually wanted to stockpile energy?  Would you just have them "throw away" the amount from the minerals that already went to the previous produced thing?
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: t_ras on December 03, 2012, 09:02:30 PM
Hard to say. If it was a little slip because the player forgot, then maybe the amount of energy is small and it can be ignored, it could work as you wrote or may be the player could desrtoy part of its own units. If it was done knowying then it is cheating and the player may even be banned.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 03, 2012, 09:04:14 PM
Question: How would you deal with the Stockpile Energy issue if you ruled "no", but someone actually wanted to stockpile energy?  Would you just have them "throw away" the amount from the minerals that already went to the previous produced thing?

If you say 'no' to this rule, you just have to accept the fact that facilities give additional money and units don't. You don't have to burn the cash in any way. And if you want to stockpile energy, just start relevant production (not in the queue).
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: t_ras on December 03, 2012, 09:08:07 PM
Hoo now I see, you meant "legaly" stockpiling energy...
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Yitzi on December 03, 2012, 09:51:11 PM
And if you want to stockpile energy, just start relevant production (not in the queue).

Except that then you lose out on the legitimate overflow from the last thing you produced...
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Earthmichael on December 03, 2012, 10:29:40 PM
I have never used stockpile energy before, so I was not aware of the strange behavior.

But it makes sense that if it happens automatically for buildings, people might as well have permission to explicitly use it for units as well.  I have just never had anyone mention it before.

I presume in all of the games I am already in, since the rule was not discussed, it would be illegal to add stockpile energy to the queue?  Or is the default to allow stockpile energy unless otherwise banned?
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 03, 2012, 11:18:13 PM
I presume in all of the games I am already in, since the rule was not discussed, it would be illegal to add stockpile energy to the queue?  Or is the default to allow stockpile energy unless otherwise banned?

Well, I prefer to expressly discuss this rule, but the rules in this forum allow it, see point 6. However, if you participate in games not started here, I would assume you can't do that. If I remember correctly, it was banned at Apolyton by default, although it may have been allowed in ladder games at Civgaming. So you may just want to discuss it with players not from around. :)

As you can see, the official rules here also allow crawler upgrading and reverse engineering, which for me are exploits I'd rather avoid.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 04, 2012, 12:38:32 AM
Except that then you lose out on the legitimate overflow from the last thing you produced...

Well, this has nothing to do with this rule. Facs or units, stockpile in the queue or not, if you switch production to stockpile energy, I'm quite sure it behaves in the same way (detailed research would be in place, but I don't see any possible surprises here).
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Earthmichael on December 08, 2012, 01:41:18 PM
I will be leaving on a cruise Sunday morning, and will be gone until the next Sunday.  I will have no internet access for that week (poor me  ;) ).

I will be sure to play any turn that arrives by Sunday morning before I go.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 08, 2012, 10:25:56 PM
I will be leaving on a cruise Sunday morning, and will be gone until the next Sunday.  I will have no internet access for that week (poor me  ;) ).

I will be sure to play any turn that arrives by Sunday morning before I go.

Sorry mate, I haven't prepared the game, it's my first time and I want it to be good. :) Let's wait.

@t_ras: I head you're busy, so I told earthmichael we can set the game by ourselves since the Vets map is no secret at all. I'm just bit afraid to make a mistake like with the difficulty level or something like that. So I want to take my time with it.

Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: t_ras on December 09, 2012, 07:59:11 AM
http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_scened.shtml (http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_scened.shtml)

try the link, and enjoy the game.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 09, 2012, 12:24:10 PM
t_ras, thanks for your help. Can I ask you to take a quick look at this map? I'm quite sure it's playable, difficulty ok and so on, what bugs me are two minor things:

1) in a trial run, we get to play in "mission year 0", no matter which MY I set. What gives? Does it mean anything?

2) the aliens seem to pay 60 EC for SE change. It's what they do, right? I just checked in a single player game and it seems so.

Settings:

Us - 2 colony pods, 2 formers, 4 scout patrols. I have IndBase and 110 EC, Michael has InfNet, AppPhys and 10 EC
Aliens - 3 colony pods, 2 formers, 4 scout patrols, ogre mk I, their respective techs (5 each) and 10 EC, 9 forest tiles, checkered for best spread.

5 victory conditions, look first, no unity scattering (is it necessary on a predefined map?), bell curve on. Force difficulty on.

Please verify, I'd hate to have to restart because something glitches later on.

Thanks in advance.

PS: Earthmike, you don't mind my going first in the turn? It just sort of happened that I set it this way...:)
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: t_ras on December 09, 2012, 12:50:12 PM
Regarding "year 0 " nothing to worry about. Just check the year when you run the turn.
Regarding no unity scattering, it depends on what you prefare. I like it,  but it has the potential to break the balance you worked on while creating the scenario.

Ill be checking later the SC file.
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Yitzi on December 09, 2012, 03:59:03 PM
I definitely prefer having Unity scattering on (i.e. "no Unity scattering" off.)  I suppose a scenario would be different, but I consider half the fun of the game to be the fact that every game is hugely different depending on how you start.  It means that you need more games to get a balanced tournament, but I consider it a fair exchange.  (It's also very difficult to design a map which has proper balance between builder factions, momentum factions, and hybrid (or defensive-builder) factions; most mapmakers make it too hard to rush, which of course favors builder factions.)
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: t_ras on December 12, 2012, 06:55:03 AM
The scenario looks OK. Enjoy!
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Kirov on December 16, 2012, 08:32:01 PM
Thanks, t_ras!

Earthmichael, take a look at this scenario file so there is no surprises. I'll do the first turn soon, please wait some. Because of this forum I'm lagging behid with my work (again). :)
Title: Re: HtH Earthmichael vs. Kirov - CMN needed
Post by: Earthmichael on December 16, 2012, 08:54:29 PM
t_ras, thanks for your help. Can I ask you to take a quick look at this map? I'm quite sure it's playable, difficulty ok and so on, what bugs me are two minor things:

1) in a trial run, we get to play in "mission year 0", no matter which MY I set. What gives? Does it mean anything?

2) the aliens seem to pay 60 EC for SE change. It's what they do, right? I just checked in a single player game and it seems so.

Settings:

Us - 2 colony pods, 2 formers, 4 scout patrols. I have IndBase and 110 EC, Michael has InfNet, AppPhys and 10 EC
Aliens - 3 colony pods, 2 formers, 4 scout patrols, ogre mk I, their respective techs (5 each) and 10 EC, 9 forest tiles, checkered for best spread.

5 victory conditions, look first, no unity scattering (is it necessary on a predefined map?), bell curve on. Force difficulty on.

Please verify, I'd hate to have to restart because something glitches later on.

Thanks in advance.

PS: Earthmike, you don't mind my going first in the turn? It just sort of happened that I set it this way...:)


I don't mind you going first.  Just go ahead and play your turn and send me the save, and I will go from there.  Thanks for preparing the scenario!
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