Post by: Nexii on April 17, 2020, 07:50:21 PM
So anyways here's my faction set. Overall these factions are definitely stronger. 4-5 benefits and 1-2 downsides.
Mostly just looking for others take on the factions, benefits and penalties that you think they should get and why. More from a flavor/lore perspective than finding perfect balance.
Gaians - Pacifist - Green - Discover/Explore
^+1 PLANET: {Environmental safeguards; can capture mindworms}
^+1 EFFICIENCY: {Egalitarian ideals}
^-1 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to pollute environment}
^Free TREE FARM at every base.
^{May not use Free Market Economics.}
University - Pacifist - Knowledge - Discover
^+2 RESEARCH: {Brilliant researchers and technicians}
^-1 EFFICIENCY: {Dubious ethics}
^+1 LABS at every base.
^Free NETWORK NODE at every base.
^{May not use Fundamentalist Politics.}
Peacekeepers - Pacifist, Democratic, Discover/Build/Explore
^Extra TALENT for every four citizens: {Humanitarian ideals create happiness}
^Receives DOUBLE votes in elections for Planetary Governor and Supreme Leader.
^Free CHILDREN'S CRECHE at every base.
^50% increased HURRY costs: {U.N. style bureaucracy}
^{May not use Police State Politics.}
Spartans - Aggressive - Power - Conquer
^+2 MORALE: {Well-armed survivalist movement}
^-1 SUPPORT: {Extravagant weapons are costly}
^Free High Morale ability on new units when prerequisite technology is discovered.
^Free COMMAND CENTER at every base.
^{May not use Wealth Values.}
Morgan - Pacifist - Free Market - Build
^+1 ECONOMY: {Industrial conglomerate}
^+1 COMMERCE bonus for treaties and pacts.
^Free ENERGY BANK at every base.
^Base population limits reduced by 2: {Followers have expensive tastes}
^{May not use Plsnned Economics.}
Hive - Erratic - Police State - Conquer/Discover/Explore
^+2 POLICE: {Extensive surveillance}
^-2 COMMERCE: {Isolationist trade policies}
^May exceed base POPULATION limits by 2: {Close living quarters}
^Free PERIMETER DEFENSE at every base.
^{May not use Democratic Politics.}
Believers - Erratic - Fundamentalist - Conquer/Build/Explore
^+2 GROWTH: {Genesis 1:28: 'Be fruitful and multiply'}
^-2 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
^+25% Bonus when attacking enemies: {Strength of convictions}
^Free RECREATION COMMONS at every base.
^{May not use Knowledge Values.}
Free Drones - Erratic - Planned - Build/Explore
^+2 INDUSTRY: {Excellent craftsmen and skilled workers}
^-2 PLANET: {Heavy industry damages Planet's ecosystems}
^Begins with 100 extra energy credits: {Plunder from former rulers}
^Free SKUNKWORKS at every base.
^{May not use Police State Politics.}
Cybernetic Consciousness - Aggressive - AI Controlled - Conquer/Discover
^+2 EFFICIENCY: {Collective mind mitigates corruption}
^-1 GROWTH: {Prefer assimilation over reproduction}
^Can steal technology when capturing a base: {Technological assimilation}
^No DRONES at all bases: {Brainwashed followers do not feel emotion}
^{May not use Fundamentalist Politics.}
Cult of Planet - Aggressive - Green - Conquer/Explore
^+2 PLANET: {Devoted to promoting native growth}
^-2 ECONOMY: {Ascetic lifestyles}
^+1 to all resources in FUNGUS squares: {Attunement with Planet}
^Free BIOLOGY LAB at every base.
^{May not use Wealth Values.}
Pirates - Aggressive - Wealth - Conquer/Build
^+2 SUPPORT: {Military supported by plunder}
^-2 PROBE: {Susceptible to bounty offers}
^Free Amphibious Pods ability on new units when prerequisite technology is discovered.
^Free NAVAL YARD at every base.
^{All choices available in Social Engineering: Chaotic.}
Data Angels / Erratic - None - Discover/Build
^+2 PROBE: {Brilliant hackers and propagandists}
^-1 POLICE: {Anarchistic and decentralized}
^Free TECHNOLOGY discovered by 3 or more factions: {Wide-ranging covert activities}
^-50% reduced PROBE costs.
^{May not use Power Values.}
Atlantean Kingdom - Pacifist - Eudaimonic - Explore
^+2 GROWTH: {Utopian ideals, well-being of followers is top priority}
^-2 MORALE: {Strong pacifist tendencies}
^Halved cost to RAISE/LOWER terrain: {Inspired by mythology of island submersion}
^Free AQUAFARM at every base.
^{May not use Thought Control Future Society.}
Asimov's Adherents - Erratic - Thought Control - Conquer/Discover/Build
^+1 INDUSTRY: {Automated systems}
^+1 RESEARCH: {Interested in developing machine life}
^Free ROBOTIC ASSEMBLY PLANT at every base.
^Mandatory PUNISHMENT SPHERE at every base.
^{May not use Eudaimonic Future Society.}
Post by: bvanevery on April 17, 2020, 09:02:39 PM
My Gaians do have free Biology Labs.
+25% Psi combat bonus is way overpowered. That's like a +2.5 PLANET rating.
+2 GROWTH is overpowered. You're making pop booming trivial.
Free Children's Creche is overpowered. Ditto. And not just for the growth, but it gives defense and EFFIC bonuses as well.
Giving Talents to Zhakarov rather than Lal is a narratively interesting decision. As a play mechanic though, I'm doubting this is going to work well in practice. It turns Zhakarov into a population growth oriented faction rather than a research faction. Sometimes we have to accept that the game doesn't model what we really have in mind, i.e. that Zhakarov should have better researchers available to him, not Talents.
Free Command Center is overpowered, Santiago already gets +2 MORALE.
+1 INDUSTRY for Morgan is overpowered. I used to have Capitalist +1 ECON +1 INDUSTRY and Wealth +1 ECON +1 INDUSTRY in addition to various penalties. After several iterations I decided to get rid of all INDUSTRY bonuses, except for the Free Drones which got to be the 1 faction where that's their schtick. INDUSTRY bonuses are overpowered. My last game in my mod with the Free Drones was also a cakewalk, I haven't played them in awhile. Early spread was trivial for them. I am wondering if I need to correct for their +1 INDUSTRY somehow.
I did also choose +1 POLICE for the Hive, and took such bonus away from anyone else, i.e. the Spartans. POLICE should be the Hive's schtick.
Free Recycling Tanks is overpowered. I removed them from the Aliens as well.
I may have tried free Rec Commons for the Believers but thought better of it. You need to be careful with this "well I don't even have to try" stuff. A narrative decision is not necessarily an appropriate game mechanical decision.
Did 2 fewer drones for the Free Drones. It was overpowered.
+2 SUPPORT for any faction is overpowered. -1 SUPPORT for Morgan in the standard game is pretty darned bad. I'd expect -2 SUPPORT to be worse.
Don't really see why the Cyborgs should get Perimeter Defenses as compared to the Hive. Not really any narrative there.
-2 INDUSTRY, +50 Psi combat, seriously? You want captured mindworms to be death rays? There's no balance here, you clearly haven't tested this. It's freakin' Dream Twister from the start of the game.
My Cult can't choose Democratic politics either.
I made my Pirates unable to choose Thought Control, very exactly because they are chaotic and prefer to live free upon the waves.
Free Energy Bank, that's way too loopy an idea for me to have ever even considered playtesting it.
-50% probe cost, NOOOOOOOOOO. You horrible modder you. The uber cheapness of mind control of cities is ALREADY the worst thing about the stock game, bar none. Nothing has more rage quits from me, than the trivial expenditures the AI has made to take things over. In my mod, everyone's mind control costs DOUBLE. Data Angels, Hive, and Cyborgs get a 25% discount on the doubling.
My conclusion is: you need to do a LOT of playtesting with what you've come up with. You've got some serious imbalances.
Post by: Nexii on April 17, 2020, 10:30:05 PM
Anyways as far as the flavor I agree about the Perimeters not suiting CyCon. If anyone I think they suit Sparta maybe a bit more than Hive..
Playing around with the idea of CyCon being more radical. A faction even more oppressive than Hive. They use Punishment Spheres to keep control. Cause let's face it they are barely used. TECHCOST, 50 offsets the Spheres to be neutral.
Edited Cybernetic Consciousness above - realized they need some negative POLICE to make it harder to sell off the spheres and just get 2x tech.
Post by: bvanevery on April 18, 2020, 12:49:59 AM
I really don't buy the Cyborgs being more oppressive than the Hive. And the Hive doesn't have to make everyone middle class, which is what a PS does.
Granted, my Data Angels believe in Thought Control, because that was an unused compulsion and I didn't see the need for more Democrats in the game. They don't actually need it, because my Police State gives +1 PROBE. So they can already have +3 PROBE, long before Thought Control becomes available. I don't know if +5 PROBE actually gets you anything. But my version of Roze is, all that hacking power went to her head.
PS is as cheap as a Rec Commons in my mod, and available early. So I've tried it out in various circumstances, because it was easy to do. It's useless in the early game. It becomes useful when you're conquering distant bases. PS is often my standard drill for that now. Eventually I "reform" when it's not a Captured Base anymore.
Post by: Bearu on April 18, 2020, 01:13:15 AM
Pacifist
+1 PLANET
-1 MORALE
-2 ECONOMY
-1 PROBE
Gaian Psi + 25%
Fungus Nutrient Production + 1
ROBUST, Efficiency
Raise and lower terraform costs halved
Reasoning:
The AI produces significant numbers of mind worms, biology labs, centauri preserves, and temple of planets with the Negative Social Morale and Gaian Psi bonus. The negative Economy complements the Gaian's inability to run Free Market. The robust efficiency reflects Deidre's experience with life systems and allows her to run a police state. The probe penalty represents the weakness of empaths and Gaian citizens to external contacts like Planet. These modifiers work better with my version of the Social engineering table.
Morgan: Build, Pacifist perhaps discover
+1 Economy
-1 Talent
Drone, 4: 1 additional drone per 4 citizens
MORALE, -1
Interest, 2: 2% additional energy credits per turn
Interest, 0: +1 energy credit per base you control per turn
Hurry: 75% of the standard cost.
Commerce + 1
Energy Credit: 100 additional energy credits.
The AI focuses on the generation of energy under a combination of Economy and Efficiency. AI foci of energy involve a combination of discover and build emphasis. Morgan's AI runs more hurry production commands than other factions: (Vertical and horizontal integration of industry). This again works better with my changes on the social engineering table. The AI receives talent penalties for soft on ethics and the inherent reduced emphasis for the AI in my version of the social engineering table. The Morale penalty represents the decadence of Morgan's faction.
Lal: Pacifist, Explore, Discover
+1 TALENT
-1 INDUSTRY
-1 POLICE
Hurry Cost: 125% of standard
+1 Talent per three citizens
+1 Energy production in Fungus (Discussion of ecological balance)
1 Free technology
2X Votes in elections
Discover technology discovered by any other 3 factions
Lal attracts the intellectual elites and diplomats provide additional spies in the factions. Diplomatic experience provides two times the votes in elections. The AI receives additional hurry costs for Lal and Lal receives an industry reduction emphasis for the AI justified in Lal's conservation efforts. Lal abhors atrocities in violation of the UN charter.
Spartans: Aggressive, Conquer, Discover
+1 MORALE (Social)
+1 PROBE
-1 GROWTH
+1 Morale (Non Social)
Impunity, Police State
Free prototypes
1 Free Scout Patrol at the start
Reduced habitation complex limits by 2
This again works better with my changes in the social engineering for MORALE. The + Morale provides Santiago early access to Elite troops and the acquisition of additional military secret projects prevents the need for Power. The growth penalty matches the internal AI's reduced emphasis on Growth for the Spartan Discover and Conquer mandate AI. Santiago practices Eugenics. The Cloning Vat removes the need for Growth Social problems and habitation domes ignore Population problems.
Post by: Bearu on April 18, 2020, 01:36:42 AM
+1 SUPPORT
+1 GROWTH
+25% on Attack
+1 Fungus Mineral Production: Believe Planet is promised land
May Exceed Population Limits by 2
Robust, Morale:
-2 RESEARCH
-2% interest on energy credits per year
Penalty, Cybernetic
The goal of Miriam remains population booms and +3 SUPPORT for a large zerg rush. She can also run Wealth with minimal morale penalties for an industrial boost. This version better fits the lore of Miriam in command of a flock of outcast workers. She abhors usury from Morgan. She receives penalties for running Cybernetic because of a suspicion for the moral implications of technology.
University: Erratic and Discover
+1 Research
+1 Efficiency
Free network node at each base
RESEARCH, 2: +2 Labs at each base for excellent research
Technology Cost reduced by 25%
1 Free technology at the start of the game
-1 SUPPORT
Support remains a severe penalty for a faction. I might add additional penalties. Zakharov remains the excellent research faction with fewer troops.
Hive:
+1 Industry
+1 Police
Immunity to Mind control and Subversion
Immunity to Efficiency negatives
Free perimeter defense at each base
MORALE, 0: The Hive ignores the negative effects of Negative Morale modifiers from Drone Riots and SOCIAL MORALE.
-1 Efficiency
-1 Planet
Technology Cost increased by 25%
-1 Commerce
Yang practices "mindcontrol experiments" and engineers the citizens. The planet penalty derives from Yang's bases existing inside the Planet and from the heavy industry of Yang's bases. Yang remained isolationist after the murder on the Unity. Yang smashes corruption and ignores efficiency.
The ignoring of negative morale modifiers allows Yang to run Wealth for better industry. Yang can run Knowledge with minimal problems because Mind control reduces the penalties of probe on knowledge. This works better on my changed social engineering table.
The AI calculates the research allocation specially for tech cost with the Hive. The Industry bonus works better with my social engineering table.
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2020, 02:46:49 AM
The rest seem fairly similar. I have wavered on whether PKs should be pacifist or not. Where I did 4 at each aggression type they'd have to swap with someone, maybe University
Yea the SMAX factions are hard to take too seriously when most have like one or two quotes at most. To me it was strange to have CyCon have techsteal and be pacifist. That's more an aggressive faction thing.
Post by: Bearu on April 18, 2020, 02:53:21 AM
Miriam's hab facility bonus works well with an eventual +3 Support, so the inclusion supported the goal of Miriam as a zerg rusher. I imagine Miriam in terms of the medieval monasteries from the 6th century Europe through the 15th century where people occupied minimal space in a form of factory work and ascetic lifestyle. Monasteries provided austere living quarters to smash people into the isolated compounds with the least amount of material.
Post by: Bearu on April 18, 2020, 02:56:31 AM
I discovered factions with a -1 fight setting oppose the repeal of the UN Charter more than factions with erratic and aggressive settings. I could not justify the Peacekeepers supporting the repeal of the UN charter more than Morgan or Deirdre.
The rest seem fairly similar. I have wavered on whether PKs should be pacifist or not. Where I did 4 at each aggression type they'd have to swap with someone, maybe University
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2020, 03:16:10 AM
Post by: bvanevery on April 18, 2020, 04:13:02 AM
What is social vs. non-social MORALE? I've never heard of that.
An early fungus mineral is way overpowered. It's the land version of the Pirates' overpowered sea minerals. Getting a fungus mineral bonus is also irrational for a faction that does not have a PLANET bonus. Christians have special ways of coaxing fungus that Deidre doesn't know about?
Post by: Bearu on April 18, 2020, 04:25:25 AM
;MORALE = Morale modifier (if 0, indicates an
; exemption from negative modifiers from
; other sources).
The AI treats the MORALE almost identically to the morale bonuses from the Society table. The only difference between the two is a negative MORALE penalty allows the AI to design and build units with the High Morale ability and supplements any bonuses or penalties from the Social morale bonuses.
The ability remains weaker than an industry bonus and fits thematically with Morgan's interest in the usage of Energy Credits. The bonus also supplements the Morganite AI's special reduction in energy credit costs for Hurry commands.
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2020, 04:32:15 AM
Fungus resources I had forgotten about. I think I'll try Cult with +1/+1/+1 in fungus and reduce their PSI bonus down to 25%. The idea is that they are like the 'red' ecological faction and Gaians are the 'green' ecological faction.
Post by: bvanevery on April 18, 2020, 09:11:00 AM
Post by: Nexii on April 19, 2020, 02:50:10 AM
By playing Cult I learned that +2 ECON doesn't help fungus squares. I guess it kind of makes sense, I wonder if this was intended flavor or a bug. It's kind of funny to play a faction that doesn't really need to terraform all that much. Centauri Ecology is 2/1/1 on fungus squares. The next boost, Centauri Meditiation, is far off though and that's only 2/1/2. By that point Tree Farms are typically 2/2/1.
CyCon feels a bit strange to play. Losing a punishment Sphere is so bad. They are very swingy, theme wise it was a bit strange they could run Democratic (or really any Politics). But I don't think there's a way to void a whole category, as far as I can tell only one choice per SE tier can be made unavailable.
I gave Drones reduced hurry costs, I feel like it fits them flavor wise the most of all factions. They needed something to make them feel more unique than a cross between PKs and Believers benefits. Of all factions I agree PKs would get the worst hurry costs... from the bureaucratic aspect. Seems to make more sense than negative efficiency, I don't think the PKs would be all that corrupt
I can definitely see negative growth fitting Sparta theme wise btw. Kind of for the same reasons I had it on University, an elitist culture that tends into eugenics. I had it on University partly because PROBE alone didn't feel too notable. Because of how my SEs are set up they are one of the two who can't pop boom (the other being CyCon, they can hit +4 growth but a Golden Age is unrealistic). Extra drones always felt strange to me for University's downside. Negative support I guess kind of fits them, I'll have to think about it...
Post by: bvanevery on April 19, 2020, 04:59:45 AM
I have Power with -2 GROWTH, rather than assigning it to a faction. If you like to make war, you get people killed.
Post by: Nexii on April 19, 2020, 05:19:19 AM
What I mean is it seems you can only disallow one total SE choice. Say for example I wanted to disallow both Planned and Green for Morgan. Maybe there's way I don't know of, but multple lines or putting them in one line doesn't seem to work.
Post by: Bearu on April 19, 2020, 06:25:31 AM
(click to show/hide)
Post by: bvanevery on April 19, 2020, 01:32:28 PM
The AI possesses two sets of controls for many of the social factors. The version released for the final game targets more specific factions. The information below provides information on the special emphasis the AI places on specific social effects based on the combination of BUILD, EXPLORE, DISCOVER, and CONQUER mandates. The AI aggressiveness factors into the decisions in certain places, and I note the aggressiveness of the AI with the label of Fight. Each social effect receives additional modifiers from specific sources, but the exact details remain lengthy and transparent to most players. If you have specific questions, then please ask me.
GROWTH:
Conquer and Explore: X 2 (The Believers)
All other combinations receive X 1
Special positive emphasis for Explore
Small negative emphasis for Build
Faction bonus of POPULATION < 0: X .5
This one caught my interest. I went through a very long phase of my modding where Explore Conquer was a frequent combo for quite a number of factions. It was based upon the idea that somehow, Explore was making the factions colonize much better. Something shifted at some point in my modding work, and then Build seemed to be working as a basis for colonization just fine when previously it didn't. The spread pattern was different, Build would tend to result in a more clustered empire instead of a "Believer sprawl". I changed lots of factions from Explore Conquer to Build Conquer. Then eventually some of the Build Conquer factions I changed to straight up Conquer. For instance the Hive. My Yang doesn't need stuff to make people happy, he just uses overwhelming POLICE repression.
Post by: Nexii on April 19, 2020, 03:45:46 PM
I thought about University more and I think -GROWTH fits them due to their questionable research methods on humans. There would be some killed or otherwise left unable to reproduce. It kind of makes them a bit like CyCon with my SE set, research factions that can't pop boom. University can only get to +5 growth and that's with golden age, creche, and wealth. CyCon can get to +4 growth with wealth and creche but they can't get a golden age realistically until maybe very late game. I guess like Gaia and Cult the difference is in their aggression level, and that's enough to feel different to me. University researches much faster, whereas CyCon has to conquer cities to really get going.
Post by: Bearu on April 19, 2020, 04:55:25 PM
Good stuff. I did notice the AI is smart enough to pick morale more when at war and less when it's not. It feels there is some additional logic where the level of threat is considered, distance or perhaps power level of their vendetta relations.You remain very perceptive.
The AI receives an additional modifier under a flag set outside the function. The exact function and routine starts when an flag triggers in several functions. The flag is complex but the basic facts is this: The flag only starts around 20 * Difficulty Level (0 for Intense Rivalry)) mission years and the faction remains at war.
If the faction is not of the weakest two remaining factions in might, then the game checks the faction's number of technologies discovered under a technology point system. If the current faction remains behind by 5 or more techs but less than 10, then multiply the AI's interest in MORALE and INDUSTRY by 2, Divide AI's interest in ECONOMY by 1/2, and add checks for an additional bonus for PLANET (ignored for factions with base PLANET from SOCIAL modifier aka Gaians and Cult of Planet).
If the faction lags by 10 or more tech points, you divide interest in ECONOMY by 3 and multiple interest in MORALE and INDUSTRY by 3. You keep the same PLANET check from previous modifier.
Quote
I thought about University more and I think -GROWTH fits them due to their questionable research methods on humans. There would be some killed or otherwise left unable to reproduce. It kind of makes them a bit like CyCon with my SE set, research factions that can't pop boom. University can only get to +5 growth and that's with golden age, creche, and wealth. CyCon can get to +4 growth with wealth and creche but they can't get a golden age realistically until maybe very late game. I guess like Gaia and Cult the difference is in their aggression level, and that's enough to feel different to me. University researches much faster, whereas CyCon has to conquer cities to really get going.I concur with your conclusion on the difference between CyCon and the University. I always felt the University benefited more from horizontal spread than vertical spread because of lab bonuses from Free network nodes or the RESEARCH bonus. Killing people for research and educated people producing less children matches your decision.
Post by: Nexii on April 19, 2020, 05:04:14 PM
I suppose hurry costs sets them apart somewhat. +Effic could fit them but already gave that to 2 factions. I wanted to keep bonuses and penalties limited to 2 factions at most
as far as negative I could see maybe -Planet
I thought maybe something like NODRONE, 100 might be interesting. It's too bad there isn't a modifier like NOTALENT to wipe out talents like a punishment sphere. Would be kind of fitting for either CyCon or Free Drones
Post by: Bearu on April 19, 2020, 05:40:54 PM
You could also try robust, Morale or Immunity, Morale. If your industry bonuses from social models provide morale penalties, then it fulfills a similar purpose and improves the Free Drone's selection of INDUSTRY bonuses.
Post by: bvanevery on April 20, 2020, 12:23:05 AM
Miriam |
Aggressive, Build and Conquer. AI has no social compulsion at all. Christians could do anything. If you can get on their good side, you tend to stay on their good side. But if they decide they don't like you, you can't butter them up with any social engineering choice.
Domai |
Erratic, Build and Conquer. JUSTICE is my version of EFFIC.
Post by: Nexii on April 20, 2020, 09:31:17 AM
Yea I've gone kind of back and forth on Mirian being Erratic or Aggressive. The new factions felt more aggressive so she got pushed down
No Cybernetic definitely makes sense for Miriam there's even a few quotes from her in game about that. Thing is future SEs come so late that it's more of a flavor benefit than one that has any impact. Which is ok I guess, this is more of a flavor thread.
Of all the factions who should get Power aversion? I never really felt it fit the data angels really. PKs and Gaia sort of have bigger aversions and you can only give one aversion. Maybe it's ok theme wise if they can all run Power, they all want to win and dominate
Post by: bvanevery on April 20, 2020, 12:39:39 PM
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Thing is future SEs come so late that it's more of a flavor benefit than one that has any impact.
Not true in my mod. They come midgame and they are not overpowered.
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Of all the factions who should get Power aversion?
Nobody. It's a stupid idea. Ditto Wealth aversion for the Cultists. Most of my aversions are in Politics. My only Values aversion is Santiago keeps her anti-Wealth.
Post by: Nexii on April 20, 2020, 01:34:50 PM
Drones still feel unique enough at +1 IND I guess. Unlike Morgan they can run Planned, so they get the best INDUSTRY. They're kind of a PKs/Morgan mashup which I guess makes sense in theme.
CyCon is a more aggressive University with some Hive flavor
Cult is a more aggressive Gaia with some Believers flavor
Angels are a more aggressive Morgan (imo this makes more theme sense than being PK wannabes, since Rose is ex-Morgan)
Pirates are Sparta on sea, with milder bonuses and penalties
And yea I agree no Democracy makes most sense for Cult. Free Market doesn't benefit them on fungus squares. Or you can just give them negative ECON, kinda works out similar
Post by: bvanevery on April 20, 2020, 05:16:24 PM
My Angels are death hackers, not money makers. I don't require them to infiltrate factions to get free techs that 3 factions have. In the real world, that's impractical for the AI. I honestly don't know if their mad hacking skillz are even useful to them. But acquiring free techs for nothing, definitely makes them powerful, and able to just concentrate on the next best weapon.
I actually tried a moneymaker version of the Angels once, on the justification that they'd need money to buy bases. It didn't work. Maybe I should revisit that idea again sometime, but for now, they seem balanced relative to other factions in my mod.
Post by: Nexii on April 20, 2020, 05:34:54 PM
Yea the infiltrate version was pretty well useless. The AI does infiltrate some but by the time you do it's kind of too late. And it just makes Empath Guild or such too critical.
Post by: Nexii on April 21, 2020, 12:11:49 AM
Post by: bvanevery on April 21, 2020, 02:53:49 AM
If factions all succeed in the same ways in the same circumstances, they become very easy to beat.
Post by: Nexii on April 22, 2020, 03:54:57 AM
I like the idea of aquatic it just seems to play out similar most games. They never have the land power to conquer anyone, and they have so much sea power it's difficult to conquer them also. Making them feel more like a growth faction than an aggressive one, which kinda goes against their whole theme.
Maybe Pirates could be non-aquatic, though that seems a little odd too.
Post by: bvanevery on April 22, 2020, 04:54:06 AM
What penalties do people give the Pirates?
I don't give any factions any penalties. I don't believe in that as an AI design. It just makes things harder for the AI to figure out how to do. I start with the presumption that everyone is at "zero" in all things, then give bonuses that are appropriate to a faction. I've done enormous amounts of playtesting over the course of 2 years, and I have strong opinions on the appropriate dynamic range of bonuses. If you give too many bonuses, you're going to to overpower a faction, and not all the bonuses are created equal.
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They always were the strongest faction.
They always were the most annoying faction. Their antidote is on-shore artillery. Then they wear themselves out endlessly upon you.
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Pushing Thermoclines and Aquafarms later helps a bit.
Yes it does. My Thermoclines don't come until late midgame now. Subsea Trunklines not until late game. Aquafarm doesn't come until E3 Ecological Engineering, which is when I give the Weather Paradigm, and where I lift the nutrient restriction.
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They never have the land power to conquer anyone,
Not important. They have this wonderful moat around them, called the ocean.
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and they have so much sea power it's difficult to conquer them also.
But not impossible. It's just really really pointless to do so, a lot of the time. They sprawl and spam, and you have to be willing to clean out sprawl and spam. Especially on a Huge map, that gets pretty boring. If you insist on doing it though, it's best to attack from land using Marines. As many bases as you can get to that way, building rails up coasts to get to all the bases. The AI is too stupid to deal with it. It's pretty much shooting fish in a barrel, and limited only by the speed at which you can build the rails and produce the execution squads.
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Making them feel more like a growth faction than an aggressive one, which kinda goes against their whole theme.
Their original theme is stupid. They voice acted these "pirates" with a guy that sounds like a college English major wearing a sweater. I don't need a bunch of aarg, aarg to convince me it's pirates, but there's nothing credible about this voice performance or these lines of dialogue at all. Someone didn't think very hard about what makes a Captain Nemo a Captain Nemo. There have been a few films where that sort of character was done right, as well as other pirate archetypes that actually work, and this game doesn't basically do anything worth hearing out. Narratively, the Pirates are some junk someone threw into the expansion pack. And they're about as narratively well thought out as a lot of the other expansion pack stuff, i.e. grossly inferior to the narratives of the original game.
Game mechanically, the expansion pack actually has some merits. It took me quite awhile to realize that, smarting from the lousy cartooney not-credible narrative choices. The Pirates' +1 minerals is overpowered, but Aquatic factions is not basically a bad idea.
Since I don't give a rat's ass about the inferior Pirate narrative of the expansion pack, and I hate this guy Svensgaard above and beyond all other characters, my Pirates are not the violent sort. Instead, they are Morganites of the Sea. They pursue Wealth, because real pirates are actually all about the ca-ching! They don't care about economic systems, they care about wealth. Any way they can get it. My Pirates sit back, relax, don't do anything to anybody, build up, and then eventually get into whatever ideological fisticuffs the world throws their way. They can be scary dominant that way, if you don't know what you're in for. Of course playing my own mod, I do know what I'm in for by now.
My Morganites of the Land aren't slouches either. They get +1 SUPPORT, not -1. They're like Haliburton military contractors / war profiteers.
Post by: Nexii on April 22, 2020, 04:39:33 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 22, 2020, 06:50:03 PM
Post by: Geo on April 22, 2020, 10:14:56 PM
You aren't going to be able to start the game with guaranteed sea colonists and coastal start position. Not unless you are binary hacking. If you are binary hacking, you might as well investigate removing the +1 sea minerals bonus.
Maybe not guaranteed coastal start position, but letting a non-aquatic faction start with a sea colony pod is entirely possible.
Or letting an aquatic faction start with only land colony pods for that matter. Of course you'd need a couple transport foils in the start mix to avoid them drowning. :P
Post by: bvanevery on April 23, 2020, 01:22:07 AM
Post by: Geo on April 23, 2020, 07:56:10 AM
When you give a land faction a ship, it just dies, because it has been placed on land. Pretty sure it doesn't helpfully shoot off to one side, in a body of water. And you may not even have a body of water to shoot off to anyways.
If you settle on the spot where the ship(s) are on turn one, they survive. They have a (probably land-locked) harbor, but are available to do things with. Even if it is only to disband them for minerals.
Post by: bvanevery on April 23, 2020, 09:29:06 AM
Post by: Geo on April 23, 2020, 10:45:21 AM
Post by: bvanevery on April 23, 2020, 05:07:34 PM
Post by: Nexii on April 23, 2020, 05:35:04 PM
Drones I redid a bit as well, to make them feel more unique. They are sort of a Morgan/PK hybrid still but not with quite the research penalty of Believers. Hurry cost isn't the most exciting faction ability but it is very strong.
Post by: Nexii on April 25, 2020, 11:29:13 PM
I expected CyCon to dominate, solid bonuses and never having to worry about drones. But I suppose not having Fundamentalism as an aggressive faction or being able to pop boom is a big downside. And lack of other support / facility bonuses. Most games they get blown out but when they snowball they snowball hard, AI transcended by 2350 in one game.
Cult is sorta so-so, though on abundant life maps they're downright terrifying. Saw them get a few of the fastest victories. Oddly they don't use just mindworms rather a mix of normal units and PSI. May give them -2 ECON yet, Cult being able to run and benefit from Free Market just feels odd. The games where they dominate it feels like they cut through enemy factions even faster than Spartans, they're hard to predict.
Data Angels seem to love Fundamentalism too much. I guess it really is the AI's love of MORALE SE. Basically they turn into a hacking cult that uses propaganda but isn't good at making their own technology. Which is a bit strange lore wise.
Number one factor really is starting location, far above and beyond faction benefits. If the AI has a decent area to colonize in the first 50-100 turns, it does okay. If it's boxed in usually it doesn't know to go to the sea or other islands hard enough. I've also noticed that sea bases tend to expand to the sea much more than land ones. So typically getting down a few sea bases early is a good marker for future growth/victory. This is sort of why the original Pirates did so well, not because of their faction benefits so much as just playing smarter.
Post by: bvanevery on April 26, 2020, 02:02:38 AM
After many test games I can say this faction set is at least as balanced as the originals.
A very low bar. Original 7 factions weren't balanced, additional 5 human factions weren't balanced, 2 Alien factions were grossly overpowered. Equivalent statement is thus, "not balanced".
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Cult is sorta so-so, though on abundant life maps they're downright terrifying.
My Cult has never done especially well on Huge maps with normal fungus. And their RESEARCH can't drop below 0, that's one of their powers. They are not pushovers, but their function in my mod has evolved to be, "to take up space". They will never win games.
There is basically no reason to test abundant fungus. Fungal mazes cripple the AI players, they get all their colonists killed. In my mod I've partially mitigated the problem by making Clean Reactors available from the beginning of the game, and by making Clean Reactors available for free on land and sea colony units. So at least when they're milling around and not settling, or getting outright killed in the bush, the faction's SUPPORT is not being wrecked.
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I guess it really is the AI's love of MORALE SE.
That's why I removed it before Power.
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If it's boxed in usually it doesn't know to go to the sea or other islands hard enough.
I made E1 Doctrine: Flexibility a Tier 1 tech, cross-listed in a few research areas. AI will pick it up quickly and will make sea colony pods. However, no land faction can hope to do as well at sea, as another faction that starts with good land. It's just not possible.
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I've also noticed that sea bases tend to expand to the sea much more than land ones. So typically getting down a few sea bases early is a good marker for future growth/victory. This is sort of why the original Pirates did so well, not because of their faction benefits so much as just playing smarter.
I disagree. My faction AIs go to sea just fine when forced. The Pirates' +1 minerals is clearly an overwhelming advantage.
Post by: Nexii on April 26, 2020, 02:29:13 AM
I've seen even stranger behavior where the AI makes a few units and disbands them out in the open, repeatedly. There seems to be some sort of code to free up support in the early game expansion phase that's at odds with making 'enough' military. I also think the AI may only tend to make colony pods until a given year, or has a strong disincentive to stop expanding at some point over land.
Probably the Thinker mod and some others have improved AI behavior in this area. I prefer to mod on Yitzi's work though due to the unit costing features and ecodamage features. I guess that's a side topic, too many forks in this community
Post by: bvanevery on April 26, 2020, 03:40:47 AM
The basic problem of forks, is that they serve different agendas, and can mostly only promote 1 author. I have no incentive to combine forces with anyone else, because it's my skill as a game designer that I want people to understand and talk about. I need that for career reasons. I intend to sell commercial products someday, maybe even a 4X TBS ala SMAC. If I break my back doing all this work to do a good game design, I don't want that credit casually going to someone else. I did put my work under CC-BY-NC license so that someone who really does want to do some work, can have their own go at everything, but I know that in the real world, probably no one will.
There's a huge catch-up problem with forks. Playing any version of this game is very time consuming. So I could do the most brilliant solution in the world, to some problem in the game. But lots of people, for instance in this community on this website, will take forever to even try my work. Let alone get around to the part of the game where the solution mattered. I mean, I've got 2 years of testing into my work. Someone who just tries it out now, is 2 years behind my own thought process on everything. They could catch up more quickly than that, if catching up was actually their goal, but for most people that isn't a goal. Everyone reinvents the world for themselves, and they don't necessarily reinvent exactly the same world.
Knowing these realities of open source modding work in a complex genre, I'm not going to concentrate on doing it for free in the future. If I'm going to do "the next stage" of 4X TBS, I'm going to do it with a company, selling products for money, creating massively more players and mindshare for the work, so that people will engage my work on my terms. To the extent that players ever do. So that at least, my own work is the standard by which most people measure the quality of the work.
This is simply not going to happen in $0 modding. It will always be fractured, attention will always be going in many directions. My work, as it stands today, is likely as much impact as anyone is going to have. And such impact as it has, may take literally years to play out.
Post by: Nexii on April 26, 2020, 11:46:11 PM
University might be just a touch above the rest, though its hard to find a minor thematic penalty. Never felt -PROBE really fit them that well. Maybe -1 MORALE, -1 GROWTH instead of -2 GROWTH. Never got a strong pacifist vibe from them but it could be explained by acedemics not wanting to be soldiers, something along those lines.
Believers needed a minor early game boost, gave them +1 EC/base/turn (INTEREST, 0). -2 RESEARCH really is like two penalties. 10 turns of no research plus the 20% increased research costs. I'd argue the 10 turns of no research is often the worse penalty, early game you almost always have a huge weapons and armor disadvantage that Fanatic doesn't overcome.
There probably are a few factions the AI makes better use of than a human. I noticed watching CyCon play that the AI will still build recreation commons, hologram theatre even with punishment spheres. It may partially explain the AI's reluctance to make facilities when there is a benefit, that is it doesn't really calculate what the benefit is against making more army.
Post by: bvanevery on April 27, 2020, 01:38:02 AM
Post by: Nexii on May 02, 2020, 04:28:36 AM
Smallest of things can make or break a faction. Punishment Spheres take your labs in half then rounds DOWN, so even with TECHCOST, 50 CyCon was getting a huge early game research penalty. I had to give them 1 RESEARCH per base because if a faction has zero research at the start of the game, then they never research anything. It was rather puzzling how a faction with +2 RESEARCH, +2 EFFIC and no drone troubles wasn't dominating every game. They may need a nerf down now but I have to simulate more games.
Lately I've been trying to think of ways to make Gaia and Cult a bit more different from one another. Maybe trying Gaia with Tree Farms and Cult with the Biology Labs. Tree Farm is quite powerful early though... it does go pretty well against Hab Limits, something that hampers early but is less meaningful later in the game
Post by: bvanevery on May 02, 2020, 06:59:40 AM
Post by: Nexii on May 02, 2020, 01:10:42 PM
Anyways the factions are designed to be more powerful by intent. Probably all of them are a touch above stock University in terms of power level (though not by very much). University does research even faster but their downsides are much worse.
There are two I see often start well but fade by mid game: Pirates and Angels. Might just be that they're too aggressive for their own good. They're kind of in that middle ground between being builder or conquerer.
Post by: bvanevery on May 02, 2020, 07:05:14 PM
Gaians don't have any hab limit in stock.
Post by: Nexii on May 02, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Instead of PSI benefits to Gaia and Cult I gave them both Green Impunity. I don't like to give out free impunities to everyone's agenda, but it was kind of necessary. The AI ran Simple Economics as much as Green. And that's with a lessened penalty on Green (-1 INDUSTRY modded instead of -2 GROWTH stock). Plus its more incentive to run Green as Gaia over Planned anyways. Felt a bit odd to do so.
Post by: bvanevery on May 03, 2020, 07:49:31 PM
Impunities get really boring. I currently have a massive benefit for the Hive, "never takes a POLICE penalty". I wonder if I overdid it. However the Hive has not proven to be as strong an AI player as other factions, nor have I done exceptionally well as a human player with it, so for now I'm not changing it. I'll be awaiting player feedback on it, "someday" if anyone ever pipes up.
Post by: Nexii on May 03, 2020, 08:54:37 PM
If I had to rank your factions based on power level, I'd put Gaia and University well above the rest for the same reason.
I'm guessing your Hive probably just picks Power over Knowledge most of the time even with the Impunity. Because the AI loves +MORALE so much. So the benefit doesn't really show up for the most important first-half of the game. I could see them being okay but PS at -1 JUSTICE and +2 RESEARCH is just kind of... neutral research rate at best. The AI really hates --MORALE so probably Wealth won't be taken all that much to get +2 ECONOMY. +2 ECONOMY >>> +2 RESEARCH, and its even more pronounced for AI that doesn't terraform well. Cause +1 energy on low energy squares is much more of a boost than +1 on high energy.
Post by: bvanevery on May 03, 2020, 09:44:52 PM
It's what made University miles ahead of any stock faction.
wat.
University AI kinda sucked in my mod for a long time. Gave 'em additional free Biology Labs to try to get them up to par with others. Then some things shifted in my tech tree, I'm not sure what, and possibly the Clean Reactors at the beginning, not sure, but they started performing much better. So recently removed the Biology Labs again. The University AI is not the top AI in my mod.
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And why every speedrun of the game is done as University.
Somehow I never seem to be eye-to-eye with the "players who hardcore abuse stuff" set, so it's possible there's some hole in my knowledge about to further uber minimax the University. For how I play it, and how the AI plays it, on a Huge map in my mod there's no problem. I've wondered if someone could make it a problem, because I make a lot of the advanced research facilities available earlier than in stock. Playtesters haven't piped up yet, with tales of "omygosh, that was so easy."
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+2 labs a base might not sound like much
On the contrary, at the beginning of the game it is a far better benefit than a free Network Node. Bio Lab gives a constant benefit regardless of LABS output. Network Node is tied to a % of LABS output, requiring you to actually have some. Many bases at the beginning, won't. I actually turned Bio Labs into my Tier 1 Discovery tech, so that all factions will build Bio Labs first, Network Nodes second. Deirdre just gets a leg up over the competition. She wasn't tough enough and needed toughening.
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Brood Pits
are stupid and shouldn't even be in the game. It's Expansion Pack gewgaw stuff. Super overpowered facility, handed to the Cultists for free "at some point" for no good reason, that the AI never gets to in a real game anyways. So just becomes an uber crusher for a human player, at a time when they don't even need it. Recently I jacked the cost and maintenance of this way up, to dissuade a human player from building it everywhere in the late game as a kind of candy. I don't tend to outright remove things from the game unless they're beyond egregious. I just make them a pointless investment in the real world. If someone still wants to sandbox, they can.
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and Centauri Preserves were considered but they do little good
They're important for abating eco-damage once you get eco-damage. It may be a bad idea to have them already installed before eco-damage, because then you don't get the abatement for having built another Planet friendly facility, I think.
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till the AI gets Green, which is so deep into the game
You can fix that. I did.
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Cult could maybe have Bio Labs back with stronger penalties.
Narratively, Cult should not be given scientific capabilities equal to or greater than the Gaians. Deirdre is the xenobiolgist, not Cha Dawn. Deirdre's only got, like, every single biology line of dialogue in the game. Lal talks about Centauri Preserve once, that's about it.
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a little too scientific for a more faith-flavored faction anyways.
Yep. But, I gave my cult IMMUNITY to Research penalties, because they do gory things with mindworms all the time. Pretty hands-on training about what works in the brood pits. They tend to stay at +0 RESEARCH though. Suits my narrative of them just fine.
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If I had to rank your factions based on power level, I'd put Gaia and University well above the rest for the same reason.
That's not based on real AI play results. Morgan and Svensgaard pretty consistently beat them. And if the Spartans get a good enough start, they will trash neighbors. They tend to stagnate on tech though.
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I'm guessing your Hive probably just picks Power over Knowledge most of the time even with the Impunity.
I haven't paid much attention lately. I'm more concerned that the Hive doesn't seem to be as tough as it used to be. Since I'm currently playing them now, I'm not in much of a position to evaluate how the AI does with them.
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Because the AI loves +MORALE so much. So the benefit doesn't really show up for the most important first-half of the game.
Getting to Power isn't first half in my mod. It's more like first third. Least it sure seems that way from my human perspective. Power is an early midgame thing.
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I could see them being okay but PS at -1 JUSTICE and +2 RESEARCH is just kind of... neutral research rate at best.
JUSTICE: PS -1, Socialist or Green +1, Power -1, net result -1.
JUSTICE: PS -1, Socialist or Green +1, Knowledge +1, net result 0. Shouldn't be that big a deal.
The real issue I'm finding, as a human player of the Hive, is ECONOMY. If I wanted real money before Eudaimonic, I could only do Capitalist Wealth. I seriously doubt the AI picks that very often, although it may have happened. And for me as a human, it's a pretty serious tradeoff to pursue that. Now, this is all true to the original form of the Hive in stock, which has a -2 ECONOMY as a faction penalty. The Hive isn't supposed to be a big money faction. But lack of money, surely has to affect research rate.
I wonder if I gave the Hive AI a secondary compulsion to go for RESEARCH, if it would take the bait. Knowledge Cybernetic is currently an awfully good deal for the Hive, as they take no POLICE penalty.
Another possibility is their pure Conquer research focus, although sounding good on paper, might not work out so well in practice. They're a merely Erratic faction, not Aggressive, so Conquer may not do them much good.
Similar problem with the Data Angels maybe. They go gangbusters with tech at the beginning, then stall out. Pure Conquer focus may not be helping them. Plus if they ever do achieve Thought Control, it's not actually helpful to them. That was a narrative decision, and a "fill in the slot" decision, since no one else had taken it. It's probably not actually a good win-the-game decision.
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and its even more pronounced for AI that doesn't terraform well.
Everyone in my mod has Clean Formers available at the beginning of the game, and they only cost 30 minerals. So I've got better terraforming than stock. Not certain how much better.
Post by: Nexii on May 03, 2020, 10:50:11 PM
Same can be said even for the human player. Randomness like whether you lose your first colony pod has a massive impact later. Or whether your starter spots have bonus resources. Monsoon Jungle, don't need to say more.
Yea I forgot Pirates were aquatic in yours. With stock sea terraforming I'd expect the AI to do the best as them. 7 FOP a tile from the game's start easily outweighs free facilities. Land is usually like 4 FOP at the start, maybe 5 FOP on a rainy or low erosion world.
Yea what I was trying to say about Hive is that +2 ECONOMY is a much bigger boost to research than +2 RESEARCH, for most of the game. So you'd go Capitalist/Wealth, and their Police benefit wouldn't do them much good. Making them immune to negative MORALE would help them more I think. One thing I do wish they had in the game was a BENEFIT SE, to make the upside of a choice twice as strong (or even +1 would do). Knowledge at +4 RESEARCH might be competitive with +2 ECONOMY, though that's a bit wild
Post by: bvanevery on May 04, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
The AI also isn't that consistent. Some games it expands and plays very well, and some games it just does really stupid things.
For long periods of my modding, I believed that AI performance was driven by research focus choice. Explore, in particular, seemed to be the magic bullet for getting performance. This is partially the origin of the name of my mod, SMACX AI Growth mod. Explore actually means "colonization and growth" under the hood.
Then something happened, somewhere along the way. Maybe I reshuffled techs that I never knew were important to the AI? Something about my early tree, made the research focus much less relevant. I found I had more flexibility in choice, to see viable early faction growth patterns.
Then the decision to put Clean Reactors at the beginning of the game, and to teach the AI to use various Clean units such as Clean Formers, had a decisive accelerating effect.
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So in a way the factions don't require perfect balance.
That's defeatism. Manual tuning does improve AIs. The problem is, you may have to iterate a long time to discover the improvements. Even then, you may not know exactly why you're seeing improvements, only that you are. Of course, my opinion is, if people would just start by imitating my results to some degree... like read my huge CHANGELOG as to why I did things...
Once upon a time, I imitated someone in the archives who had noticed the strong effect that Explore had on early colonization success.
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Randomness like whether you lose your first colony pod
As an experienced human player, you have to be pretty stupid to do that. Defensive movement and placement principles are known, or should have been deduced with experience. Mindworms have a hard time harming you on a lot of terrain. Of course, my point of view is for the stock binary. If some other binary makes early mindworms an invulnerable death sentence, then YMMV.
Getting a bad start, is something semi-fixable with modding. There's a reason I recommend Huge maps, and why my maps have more continentally land mass. The only real threats I remember experiencing lately are gratuitous fungal mazes. I most certainly never select Abundant life forms, but sometimes I seem to get something like that anyways. With mazes, you have to settle fast and get going on Formers. It will put you behind other factions, but you can recover.
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Making them immune to negative MORALE would help them more I think.
Why on Earth would I do that with the Hive? Their citizens are the most miserable in the game. It's totally non-narrative to turn them into Spartan wannabes. Different factions have their schticks. One shouldn't just sprinkle MORALE around like some kind of generalized booster shot. If the Spartans aren't generally the toughest, then it doesn't mean anything.
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One thing I do wish they had in the game was a BENEFIT SE, to make the upside of a choice twice as strong (or even +1 would do).
Sounds like a way to blow the lid off the dynamic range of a choice range. Particularly imbalancing at the start of the game.
Some of your perceived inability to control what the AI chooses, may be because you're not being subtle about these choices. You don't seem to be thinking about it as a game of inches, where even +1 must be earned. You seem to want MOAR!
High dynamic range choices, combined with AI weighting, may just yield clearly obviously best choices as far as the AI is concerned. So no variety of AI choice.
Post by: Nexii on May 04, 2020, 06:20:25 AM
I did note something, the governor choice (Explore, Build, Discover, Conquer) under human control often doesn't match the faction's priority under AI control. So I want to say that priority only impacts the techs, SPs, and SEs that a faction prioritizes. It seems like perhaps units and buildings were taken out of that equation at some point, since they did code the governor automation. But it's hard to say.
Anyways the goal here was to create factions that feel different from one another to play. Which for me few in the original set had that feeling, perhaps Yang with his PS/Planned and the Pirates. But the rest just didn't stand out in terms of gameplay style. I'm happy with most except perhaps Pirates... perhaps have to see their consistency on sea maps. On land they seem to get run over, which is a bit odd for having +1 MORALE, +1 SUPPORT, +1 POLICE. Might just be their -1 EFFIC and at war too much to pick FM enough to get better tech. And might just be that I have to set them as pure Conquer. Spreading out priorities means that weapons and armor aren't prioritized enough to run over other factions.
Post by: bvanevery on May 04, 2020, 07:10:41 AM
Post by: Nexii on May 04, 2020, 06:26:12 PM
Trying out a new version of Pirates where they get Cruisers from the start. They seem to be the one remaining faction that struggles. I think because -1 EFFIC is quite a steep penalty. I did want to represent all social penalties. And it seems to fit them the best, even more than PKs.
Free Amphibious Pods and Marine Detachment usually made little difference, like pretty much every 'free facility/ability halfway into the game' bonus.
Post by: bvanevery on May 04, 2020, 10:19:36 PM
Post by: Nexii on May 05, 2020, 09:00:31 PM
Post by: Geo on May 05, 2020, 10:21:44 PM
Yea it's not bad. I wish there was a way to give abilities from the start of the game. Having to get the tech makes some just way too late. I suppose for Pirates it's not overly deep in the tree but still.
Eh, wouldn't having no tech prerequisite do the trick? Simply putting 'NONE' on the tech label in the Alpha(x) file?
Post by: Nexii on May 05, 2020, 10:24:44 PM
I should have specified, giving an ability to just one faction from the start of the game isn't possible. Because FREEABIL only gives it when you discover that tech, not if you start the game with it.
Post by: bvanevery on May 06, 2020, 12:40:01 AM
Post by: vonbach on May 06, 2020, 11:30:54 AM
Be fruitful and multiply after all.
The Peacekeepers should be more of a some +probe and talent bonuses I think, and the council votes.
Post by: Nexii on May 06, 2020, 04:45:21 PM
Probe sort of fits for PKs, but I don't see them spying too much on other factions. The auto techshare perhaps is a little more fitting for PKs. They can use the council to compel factions to share knowledge that isn't considered top-secret any longer. More by diplomacy than by espionage (PROBE).
The other issue with PKs is that they prefer Democracy, which doesn't give growth. I suppose they could take prosperity to boom...but still.
The simplest thing to do would be to give PKs support instead of growth. But PKs aren't militaristic so that's a bit odd too.
Believers would have to lose support, having 2 to both would be too much. I'll think about it for sure.
Edit: There, I gave Believers +2 GROWTH. They lost -2 SUPPORT
PKs gained +1 SUPPORT (I think it actually makes sense, they get funding from other factions like the U.N.)
PKs penalty to POLICE reduced to -1, but also removed the free drone control. They get TECHSHARE to compensate since +2 GROWTH I feel is a little better than +1 SUPPORT. Should be reasonably balanced, I'll have to test.
The only issue is that it might make Believers and Drones kind of similar. But there is a big difference between +1 GROWTH and +2 GROWTH.
I kind of like Talents on Zak because they do represent the elite researchers. PKs are kind of second in line for me. Though Zak still can't boom with Fundamentalism aversion and -1 GROWTH in my set. The Talents are kind of a nice benefit rather than one for booming. Kind of mirrors Hive, yea they get extra drones but with their POLICE being so good it's not as big of a deal.
Post by: Nexii on May 06, 2020, 09:55:32 PM
PKs I increased their rush costs. They were quite strong, 2x votes is an underrated bonus.
Believers might need a little something. Seems that +4 GROWTH doesn't quite offset -4 RESEARCH, lol. But I have to run more games to see.
Post by: vonbach on May 06, 2020, 11:58:29 PM
Yea I agree actually, sort of doubling down on Fundamentalism bonuses/penalties. Gaia and Cult sort of work like this.
Probe sort of fits for PKs, but I don't see them spying too much on other factions. The auto techshare perhaps is a little more fitting for PKs. They can use the council to compel factions to share knowledge that isn't considered top-secret any longer. More by diplomacy than by espionage (PROBE).
The other issue with PKs is that they prefer Democracy, which doesn't give growth. I suppose they could take prosperity to boom...but still.
The simplest thing to do would be to give PKs support instead of growth. But PKs aren't militaristic so that's a bit odd too.
Believers would have to lose support, having 2 to both would be too much. I'll think about it for sure.
Edit: There, I gave Believers +2 GROWTH. They lost -2 SUPPORT
PKs gained +1 SUPPORT (I think it actually makes sense, they get funding from other factions like the U.N.)
PKs penalty to POLICE reduced to -1, but also removed the free drone control. They get TECHSHARE to compensate since +2 GROWTH I feel is a little better than +1 SUPPORT. Should be reasonably balanced, I'll have to test.
The only issue is that it might make Believers and Drones kind of similar. But there is a big difference between +1 GROWTH and +2 GROWTH.
I kind of like Talents on Zak because they do represent the elite researchers. PKs are kind of second in line for me. Though Zak still can't boom with Fundamentalism aversion and -1 GROWTH in my set. The Talents are kind of a nice benefit rather than one for booming. Kind of mirrors Hive, yea they get extra drones but with their POLICE being so good it's not as big of a deal.
Yeah I have no problem with the Believers losing support for growth it fits them far better. If anyone should be the growth centric faction it should be them. I don't think they should get research penalties though, religious doesn't mean stupid. Economic or efficiency penalties might be better.
I never mess with the Drones that much I just love the +2 industry. It's so much fun to play.
As far as the Peacekeepers go I like the idea of a generalist faction decent at research, probe and war with its real weakness is not being able to take Police State.
Post by: Nexii on May 07, 2020, 01:15:14 AM
I did tone down the Drones, +2 was quite strong. Though I feel like 25% reduced hurry is pretty close and maybe a bit more interesting. You can save up credits in FM and swap to Planned to rush a bunch of facilities. Overall I'd say their power level only got increased a little bit...they were pretty close to stock University which was my baseline. That being said in my SE/fac set Drones are the only ones that can hit +5 IND late game. The swap rushes get strong.
Upgraded Believers from Rec Commons to Paradise Garden. This lets AI bases boom for a short time, at least until her empire is large. Seems 'about right'. For a human player they aren't much better, since bases get drones from size 2+. But then again a human player is smarter and will use Creches or Prosperity SE more. So not too worried.
PKs I dare say have won the most sim games I've seen the AI play. It's kind of subtle, but usually they get Governor through 2x votes and being less hated as pacifist. The extra energy and being able to vote in global trade pact often just lets them run away from conquer factions in tech. Creches are super good, even with taking away their social +2 GROWTH. It's kind of weird, but I think it's just that they manage to stay in Demo/FM/Knowledge a lot more than other factions. If they get Empath Guild and Clinical Immortality then they can win right there even if they're behind on the Transcend race.
These factions are quite balanced for AI vs AI. Some of the results kind of surprised me. I always expect CyCon to do better. Strong research, effic, and no drone worries. They often get dismantled by probe attacks, the AI doesn't know to rebuild spheres. Even for a human player they're expensive. University is often way up on tech but always precariously small and weak at the same time.
Post by: vonbach on May 07, 2020, 01:29:24 AM
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Well I never saw the Believers as stupid really. Miriam's late game quotes are some of the least crazy. I see Believers more as having an aversion to technological change, a cautiousness.
Honestly she seems like the smartest out of the bunch at times. I like the idea of either mild research penalties (-1) or better yet effic or economy penalties.
But +2 growth and I was going to give her -2 population on top of that is quite strong.
Planet penalties might work because she seems like the least likely to accept an intelligent planetary fungal network aside from the Spartans.
Post by: bvanevery on May 07, 2020, 01:41:26 AM
Obviously Morgan is the anti-Planet faction. For economic not spiritual reasons.
I think the myth of Christians being anti-environment is harmful and should not be promoted by games.
Post by: Nexii on May 07, 2020, 01:43:57 AM
-2 research matters most early. I'm not as big a fan of the no research for 10 turns mechanic. It's essentially -100% labs...just brutal.
I gave Morgan and Drones the negative PLANET penalties. Morgan's more capitalist but the Drones would be as bad imo. Just look at the names of their cities, they're basically all huge factories.
Post by: vonbach on May 07, 2020, 01:45:56 AM
There's no lore about Miriam being anti-Planet. The only instance of it, is the 1 line in her faction description file. That's why I removed it from my mod. They didn't do any narrative support at all for her being anti-Planet.
Obviously Morgan is the anti-Planet faction. For economic not spiritual reasons.
I think the myth of Christians being anti-environment is harmful and should not be promoted by games.
True the bible actually is environmentalist in many ways. Were supposed to be stewards of the earth.
The problem is the planet they are on is alive.
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-2 research matters most early.
Honestly -2 research isn't that much of an early penalty if you explore. Other factions will cheerfully give you tech for money.
Playing as the Drones you barely notice honestly the - research.
Post by: bvanevery on May 07, 2020, 01:55:19 AM
Which is why Zhakarov zings about people believing what they desire to be true, instead of what the evidence shows to be likely and possible.
"Christians are anti-environmentalist" is at least a curiously American perception, due to their alignment with the Republican party, which is also dominantly anti-enviornmentalist for completely different reasons. It's actually pretty much the same sort of stereotyping as "Christians are pro-business pro-money". YMMV for other countries, but I know how the Christian stereotypes work in the USA.
Post by: vonbach on May 07, 2020, 03:24:28 AM
The politics of this game are so far left its not even funny. The whole game is anti christian.
Post by: Nexii on May 07, 2020, 04:04:15 AM
As I see it no one is really portrayed as good in SMAC. Left or right wing. There's plenty of aggressive on both side, plenty of hypocrasy and idealism.
Post by: vonbach on May 07, 2020, 05:05:19 AM
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Lol. I did put Hive and Believers down to erratic personality from aggressive. I think pacifist would be as much of a stretch though.
As I see it no one is really portrayed as good in SMAC. Left or right wing. There's plenty of aggressive on both side, plenty of hypocrasy and idealism.
Both the Gaians and the peackeepers are idealized. The Gaians especially so.
Post by: bvanevery on May 07, 2020, 05:45:22 AM
Lol. I did put Hive and Believers down to erratic personality from aggressive.
I also made my Hive Erratic. I didn't see evidence of them having the military prowess in practice, to be Aggressive. Still true in my mod. Not sure if I need to do something about it.
I tried Erratic Believers for awhile, and also had them as sort of Morgan lite. "Tithings make the church solvent." :D Worshippers of the Almighty Dollar. But they didn't perform that well, and I also had to nerf Morgan back down to +1 ECONOMY instead of +2. I played with a MORALE bonus, then decided that wasn't so in character for them, that I didn't want another Conqueror Marr faction. I felt play mechanically constrained, that I didn't have enough variety among factions. Also I was opposed to them having PROBE as their play mechanic, as I don't see a reason why Christians should be especially good at that. I did give them unconvertability, you can't mind control them. Running out of options, I reinstated their 'fanatic' attack bonus although I don't call it that in their faction description. I made them Aggressive since it's in their best interest to attack.
Post by: Nexii on May 07, 2020, 07:33:20 PM
I might try Morgan at +2 ECON yet to constrast him with Data Angels and Drones more. Though it requires some very steep downsides. -2 SUPPORT might do it, though I could barely imagine FM at -4 SUPPORT lol. Still +4 ECON while at +4 GROWTH seems amazing
Same with Drones at +2 IND to set them apart more again. Such a powerful benefit although I guess I did give Believers +2 GROWTH which is about as strong.
What factions do you think most fit the reduced hurry bonus? I had it on Drones, but it'll be too much to give it to a +2 IND version I think.
Morgan seems the most obvious for Interest bonus. It could fit the Data Angels too, I had them as sort of in charge of the EC banks
Post by: vonbach on May 07, 2020, 10:33:29 PM
She needs to be completely redesigned to be a real faction. She should be the growth faction and she shouldn't have research penalties either.
That's just the result of the prejudices of the people that made the game. Anti Christian hate is the only one that's allowed anymore.
Just like the Gaians are idealized and ludicrously powerful if played right. You basically get a free army.
Peacekeepers have growth bonuses and double votes so if you can fend off the AI its an "I win" button.
Post by: Nexii on May 08, 2020, 12:20:12 AM
University, PKs, Hive, Gaia, Believers, Sparta, Morgan. And CyCon, Drones, Pirates probably all ranked above PKs. Cult was even worse than Morgan. Angels were probably 2nd from worst.
What would Believers have if not negative research, as a penalty?
I'm working on versions of Morgan at +2 ECON and Drones at +2 IND to make them feel more unique.
Post by: vonbach on May 08, 2020, 01:01:46 AM
You literally don't notice the penalty once you get going and it doesn't take long.
University comes close though.
Post by: Nexii on May 08, 2020, 01:07:46 AM
I feel like perhaps Cult or Gaia. Because a human player knows how to abuse the terraforming advantages better. CyCon perhaps too. The AI is very swingy, it doesn't know to rebuild Punishment Spheres unfortunately.
Drones I put just under University for stock factions. If only because you can get blown out early like Believers. Once into the midgame they always did fine. Believers were kind of like this too honestly. Fanatic bonus is amazing if you can just stay even on tech.
How about INTEREST, -10 for Believers? Instead of -ECON. To represent tithing, a tenth of your income that goes to the church. Well its worse than that it's a tenth of your wealth lol. Negative econ believers might be interesting. More ascetic would probably mean Free Market aversion rather than knowledge.
Post by: vonbach on May 08, 2020, 01:42:39 AM
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How about INTEREST, -10 for Believers? Instead of -ECON. To represent tithing, a tenth of your income that goes to the church. Well its worse than that it's a tenth of your wealth lol. Negative econ believers might be interesting. More ascetic would probably mean Free Market aversion rather than knowledge.
You assume its a church when its more a religious congregation and thats not the same thing. I always imagines them as small town america on another planet.
I've gotten to the point where I don't always give my factions penalties unless I feel its warranted. Half of my factions don't have penalties at all.
Will negative interest even work? It might be interesting to try.
Post by: bvanevery on May 08, 2020, 02:24:49 AM
I might try Morgan at +2 ECON
Don't blow the lid off the dynamic range of ECON in your table. I did +2 Morgan for awhile. Then the AI tried to corner the energy market with only 1000 credits! It was way too ridiculous. I'd have to go back to look at what my table was like before I toned it down.
Post by: Nexii on May 08, 2020, 05:45:58 AM
Morgan and Drones might be ok at +2 ECON and +2 IND respective. I didn't give Morgan free facility and the one for Drones isn't economic in nature (Skunkworks).
I put most of the instant victory things a bit later in the game for tech. Reminded me of a similar game where PKs were on Monsoon Jungle and got Empath Guild to end the game right there. Might have been 50-60 turns in with all factions alive.
Right now in my SE set you can only get +2 ECON early from FM. So Morgan can get +4 at most which would be the same as before. Also, +4 and +5 ECON are the same base energy production. Whether it's intended or not the soc table for economy should read like:
-3, -2 energy each base
-2, -1 energy each base
-1, -1 energy at HQ base
0, Standard energy rates
1, +1 energy each base
2, +1 energy each square!
3, +1 energy/sq; +2 energy/base; +1 commerce rating!
4, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +2 commerce rating!!
5, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +3 commerce rating!!!
Post by: EmpathCrawler on May 08, 2020, 03:43:09 PM
Yea I've kind of wondered which faction would be best in human hands for my set. I cut them down to 4 benefits each which is stlll a lot
I feel like perhaps Cult or Gaia. Because a human player knows how to abuse the terraforming advantages better. CyCon perhaps too. The AI is very swingy, it doesn't know to rebuild Punishment Spheres unfortunately.
Drones I put just under University for stock factions. If only because you can get blown out early like Believers. Once into the midgame they always did fine. Believers were kind of like this too honestly. Fanatic bonus is amazing if you can just stay even on tech.
How about INTEREST, -10 for Believers? Instead of -ECON. To represent tithing, a tenth of your income that goes to the church. Well its worse than that it's a tenth of your wealth lol. Negative econ believers might be interesting. More ascetic would probably mean Free Market aversion rather than knowledge.
Tithing goes to the church, though, so why would the faction's energy reserves be reduced if it's run as a theocracy? It's hard to peg Miriam down (well we can rule out Eastern Orthodox LOL) but she's probably meant to be some kind of 1990s American dominionist and the Lord's Believers are maybe organized under presbyterian lines? There has to be some kind of hierarchy there to enforce her orthodoxy but I don't see her appointing archbishops/bishops/cardinals.
Post by: Nexii on May 08, 2020, 03:48:30 PM
Tithing goes to the church, though, so why would the faction's energy reserves be reduced if it's run as a theocracy? It's hard to peg Miriam down (well we can rule out Eastern Orthodox LOL) but she's probably meant to be some kind of 1990s American dominionist and the Lord's Believers are maybe organized under presbyterian lines? There has to be some kind of hierarchy there to enforce her orthodoxy but I don't see her appointing archbishops/bishops/cardinals.
Yea considering she calls herself Sister and not some higher rank, it implies a flatter power structure. More egalitarian. Hence I think growth or effic are quite fitting benefits.
Edit: Also I ended up swapping University's talents with PKs tech share. Talents probably better represent happiness, of all factions PKs seem the one that would value that the most. The happiness in turn allows more citizenry to be 'elite', but thats an effect not the cause.
Post by: EmpathCrawler on May 08, 2020, 07:42:38 PM
Tithing goes to the church, though, so why would the faction's energy reserves be reduced if it's run as a theocracy? It's hard to peg Miriam down (well we can rule out Eastern Orthodox LOL) but she's probably meant to be some kind of 1990s American dominionist and the Lord's Believers are maybe organized under presbyterian lines? There has to be some kind of hierarchy there to enforce her orthodoxy but I don't see her appointing archbishops/bishops/cardinals.
Yea considering she calls herself Sister and not some higher rank, it implies a flatter power structure. More egalitarian. Hence I think growth or effic are quite fitting benefits.
Edit: Also I ended up swapping University's talents with PKs tech share. Talents probably better represent happiness, of all factions PKs seem the one that would value that the most. The happiness in turn allows more citizenry to be 'elite', but thats an effect not the cause.
Growth is good, though mechanically very powerful. There's the real life conservative "Quiverfull" movement which I'm sure would find a home in Miriam's theology when they have a whole Planet of demonic horrors and godless types to out-procreate.
"Happiness" is exactly something a middle of the road liberal sort of leader like Lal would favor. There are a lot of ways for people to happy and Lal doesn't want your "pursuit of happiness" to force you into anything too radical or different hence his large bases and voting edge.
Post by: Nexii on May 08, 2020, 09:01:26 PM
Miriam seemed about right despite that strong benefit. Because she's always crippled for research, which is a huge downside when going for SPs.
Drones I put to -1 police instead of -1 planet. Plus this gives me space to put -1 planet more on Free Market though I'm not sure it really needs it yet...but perhaps.
It feels to me PKs got bigger bases just for game mechanics reasons. I still think the large bases fit Hive the best. They're packed in like ants or bees inside a Hive. I would say CyCon too but I imagine all the control and research equipment takes up a lot of space.
Did more reworking. Got rid of all immunities. Cult got FANATIC to compensate. Gaia got Hybrid Forest in the late game.
Was tired of seeing CyCon get trashed. I'll see if this version without Punish Spheres does better. Punishment spheres was interesting but it ate up 4 type 2 slots. freefac, drone, techcost, then research. Easier to just do NODRONE, 100. Back to their original penalty of -GROWTH. A faction with no drones should be interesting to play if I get a game in. Though I do recommend doing IMMUNITY, POLICE because P-drones are calculated after NODRONE. So is -TALENT and Genejack but I'm less worried about those. 1 police sentinel will counter that, since police units are always last.
Same with Pirates, small buff, -PROBE instead of -GROWTH.
Post by: Nexii on May 09, 2020, 05:05:29 PM
Mostly it's Angels that need some work now. I think too much of their benefits are early game only. They often start great then just get outclassed. Anarchistic (penalty to all Politics) is probably a bigger downside as the game goes on than I realized, but I like the idea of it. It's a kind of 'pick your poison' penalty which feels unique. In my SE set penalty makes Police State -2 growth, Democracy -4 police, and Fundamentalism -4 research. They're still worth picking over Frontier but it's tough to swallow.
I think I'll jump Angels to +2 ECON like Morgan, she is ex-Morgan after all. For lack of other ideas what they would be good at. The reality is that PROBE alone doesn't make a faction good. They never were very good to begin with.
Post by: bvanevery on May 09, 2020, 06:37:43 PM
Anyways, I had my Angels' obsession as Thought Control. But the reality is, they don't really need it. They already start with +2 PROBE and if they go Police State in my mod, they'll have +3. My current Thought Control, +2 POLICE +2 PROBE -2 RESEARCH, doesn't really provide a worthwhile benefit to anyone. It's Tier 6, which is earlier than the stock game, but it's late enough that everyone will have solved their happiness problems by then. Originally I had imagined it as an "end the game by taking over everything with probe teams" tech, but in order to nerf the power of probe teams, that course of action is now pretty darned expensive. At least, I think it is. Haven't really tried again lately.
So I don't really know what I'm doing with my Angels at present. I've removed their obsession. Now they don't obsess about anything, nor do they have any restrictions. I don't want another Democrat in the game, I've got enough of those. I also thought the original game idea that they can't use Power was lame. I have them doing Discover, Build. I've started a test game, and they're my next door neighbor, so soon I'll see how they do with it.
Post by: Nexii on May 09, 2020, 07:04:42 PM
I'm trying them out with +2 ECON +2 PROBE Techshare and Covert Ops facility. And the Anarchy thing which is pretty much either -1 GROWTH or -2 POLICE or -2 RESEARCH. All my factions have 4 benefits and either 1 or 2 penalties (as some benefits are super strong like Gaia's Tree Farms and Hive's Recycling Tanks).
They're kind of similar to Morgan. I think I may do the same. Remove their Free Market compulsion, remove Power aversion (which I only just re-added). Give them more of a freedom/anarchist feeling. I've had them at Erratic to make them more aggressive than Morgan.
Yea Conquer factions can stall out. I see them win a fair amount of games even so. When a Builder faction wins it's usually because they had good geography. Being on a large island alone is ideal for making a sort of fortress. I noticed the same when I started re-doing tech priorities. That Conquer has about 2x as much techs as the others, maybe even 3x. Explore shoots up super fast early, Build and Discover catch up mid-game.
Pirates might also need a little something, I'm not sure. Have to test them out more as well. I feel like they should do better than they end up doing. Conquer factions are funny though one game they can look OP and the next they just get outbuilded.
Post by: bvanevery on May 09, 2020, 07:57:13 PM
Post by: Nexii on May 09, 2020, 10:51:18 PM
Angels ended up being close but a bit strong, added penalty for Power. They can pick it, just adding some pain.
Post by: vonbach on May 09, 2020, 11:42:19 PM
I keep them closer to the original because sea moranitesis just too overpowered.
Post by: bvanevery on May 10, 2020, 03:23:37 AM
I've currently got Aquafarm at Tier 3, with Ecological Engieering and the Weather Paradigm. This is also where I lift nutrient restrictions. Since the tech is guarded by a Secret Project, AI factions won't just trade it with the human player. In practice it takes longer to get Aquafarms if you're not expressly focusing on that research. A midgame sort of thing.
It takes even longer to reach Tier 4, Environmental Economics, and Tree Farms. Tree Farms fooled me for many years, making me think that Aquafarms are fairly useless. If you have both, and you click on the center of your city to get the workers to auto-adjust themselves, they will always choose the forest squares.
But recently in a lot of games, I've gotten access to Aquafarms way before Tree Farms. I have found they can be quite powerful for accelerating population, maybe even overpowered. You end up with so much food, that all those 1-2-1 forests get used "as is" with it. Who needs Tree Farms? I do build them anyways when I get them, but lately I've been wondering why I'm bothering.
Perhaps it is best to think of an Aquafarm as the oceanic equivalent of a Soil Enricher? Having it appear in SMACX as a Tier 1 tech, may have put us all in a wrong cognitive category about its power. My tech tree, I did repurpose Progenitor Psych, so I don't need Aquafarm to appear any place in particular. P.P. is where I give Hypnotic Trance. My lore modification is the Aliens figured that out, humans can't just sit down and sing kumbaya to make it so.
Post by: Nexii on May 10, 2020, 04:38:32 AM
EthCalc - nutrients unlocked
EcoEng - condensor (only +1, not +50%, so 4-5 fop)
EnvEcon - enricher and tree farm (~5 fop on land)
EcoEng2 - aquafarm and hybrid forest (~7 fop on land and sea)
SentEco - hydroponics satellites (gg)
So I had aquafarms quite late, sea is strong. It does have the downside of more expensive formers but fast former times cancel that. I considered just removing the unlocks since they seem to hamper the AI quite a bit.
Anyways I'm not sure what else to give Pirates. They aren't terrible or anything just a little lacking. I could up their MORALE to +2 I suppose, but that's kind of Sparta territory. +Commerce might make sense but it's not so helpful on an aggressive faction. +2 support would probably make them fine but I don't know about pirate army hordes, lol.
Post by: bvanevery on May 10, 2020, 07:57:00 AM
Post by: Nexii on May 10, 2020, 10:34:33 AM
Post by: bvanevery on May 10, 2020, 05:54:32 PM
Post by: Nexii on May 10, 2020, 06:50:16 PM
Also I've noticed that although the AI doesn't exactly use the more extreme Governor logic, it does seem that Conquer factions don't put a high priority on facilities. This is probably why they tend to fall behind by the mid game. It makes sense why none of the default factions had pure Conquer as an agenda now.
I think I figured out what I wanted to do with Pirates. They get strong support and a bit of police. Removed their morale, it made them too much combined with the strong support and too similar to Sparta. A lot of the time pirates didn't even fight, they just intimidated ships into surrender. Strong negative to probe (pirates will do anything for money). Immunity to Prosperity, they wouldn't be demoralized by luxury, pirates always want more treasure. And they bleed credits, cause pirates either squander their wealth or hide it away to be discovered later. Knowing the AI it still won't pick Prosperity, lol.
Post by: Nexii on May 11, 2020, 05:25:37 AM
Post by: bvanevery on May 11, 2020, 05:38:08 AM
Post by: EmpathCrawler on May 11, 2020, 10:55:10 PM
Anyone find that the drones REVOLT ability never works? I may give them COMMFREQ instead. Can see it fitting into the lore, they revolted from whatever faction you have contact with.
I got some bad news for you: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Faction.txt_editing_guide#COMMFREQ
Post by: vonbach on May 11, 2020, 11:35:00 PM
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Anyone find that the drones REVOLT ability never works? I may give them COMMFREQ instead. Can see it fitting into the lore, they revolted from whatever faction you have contact with.It does work apparently but only in very specific circumstances and never against the AI. Its basically a useless ability.
I play the Drones often and I've never seen it trigger once.
I usually just get rid of it and give them something to compensate like getting rid of one point of their research penalty or let them take GREEN economics or both.
Post by: Nexii on May 11, 2020, 11:35:32 PM
Post by: Nexii on May 12, 2020, 04:05:16 PM
Post by: Nexii on May 13, 2020, 11:16:15 PM
Has anyone played around with a fungus faction before? Gaia had +1 nutrient to fungus but it didn't really help all that much. Until you get Centauri Meditation that's only 2/0/0 in fungus. I've been trying out Cult at +0/+2/+1, which makes fungus like forests. +1 to all resources was much more powerful. It seems to show that nutrients are a more powerful resource than minerals or energy, even with the extra citizens costing drone control. By factors of production (FOP) it was sometimes implied that nutrients, minerals, energy were equal but I'm not so sure.
Post by: bvanevery on May 13, 2020, 11:56:32 PM
Being flagged aggressive makes a faction build very few facilities. Probably too few once its bases get larger.
Interesting observation. I'll have to monitor whether it coincides with my underperforming factions. My Aggressives are the Usurpers, the Spartans, the Cultists, and the Believers. I was more inclined to blame Conquer, but now I must admit I don't know. For version 1.43 of my mod I'm experimenting with every faction getting a different research focus combo.
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It's surprised me how fast pacifist factions can end the game if they get a global trade pact going.
Pacifists are a threat! It's why my Pirates are so terrifying.
I think some Aggressives are still needed in the overall faction balance though. Otherwise Passive factions would always get off scott free with their development BS. Just because an Aggressive can't win, doesn't mean it isn't contributing to the game.
The Usurpers used to be able to stomp a lot of stuff. I haven't seen that as much lately.
Post by: Nexii on May 14, 2020, 12:52:58 AM
Conquer, pacifist seems to build mostly units whether at war or not.
Build, aggressive seems to build facilities when not at war and mostly units when at war.
Build, pacifist seems to build facilities when not at war and a mix of both when at war.
Discover and Explore seem to have very similar tendencies to Build, but I have to watch them more in test games.
It would seem that it's Conquer that's off. Conquer really should be building more facilities when not at war, even if they are military facilities. But it doesn't. It's much like how the AI still wants lots of MORALE during peace. I may just avoid Conquer flag entirely but I have to test more to be sure. The thing is aggressive factions are almost always at war so there's little time for them to build up.
Post by: Nexii on May 19, 2020, 04:06:54 AM
Aggressive AIs do okay on smaller maps and not so well on bigger maps. Bigger maps take too long to traverse, by the time they do a builder has always become much larger.
I'll probably set all my AIs to either pacifist or erratic. The priorities I'm less sure on still. Having no factions with Conquer priority would be problematic potentially for research priorities. Discover could supplant Conquer, with all the build/research in Build. But for now I'm thinking maybe the more militaristic factions should just get Conquer +2 priorities or Conquer +3 priorities.
Trying out 2 new factions also to replace the aliens. One that's Eudaimonic, and more anti-war than any other. And the other that's Thought Control and more aggressive. They might be a bit similar to Believers and Drones but theres only so many bonuses. At least they have differing aggression level.
I wanted to make a Genejack faction work but it's just a little too much early on, the faction would need a massive downside. A PSI gate faction I thought would be fun but I don't think the AI uses them. I'll have to test that out though to see.
Post by: Nexii on May 19, 2020, 06:35:47 PM
Cult was a bit much when I made more early fungus bonuses (not to much surprise). I took away their free mineral in fungus.
Atlanteans might be the best builder faction by a bit over Morgan/University. But they've sort of avoided war every sim game I've watched, I think they should have a tough time fighting a war with that morale. They're probably about right.
Adherents are hard to judge. They've done pretty average so far in sim games. Better production than Drones with the fast rushes and no FM aversion. But that growth is painful, even worse than slow research. They tend to be the lowest for population. A lot like CyCon and Hive in that they want to capture population.
Post by: vonbach on May 19, 2020, 11:15:03 PM
pathetic.
One thing I've noticed over the years is any faction with a leaning towards Fundamentalism seems hyper aggressive
regardless of what their aggression is set to. Its like somethings written into the game itself.
Post by: Nexii on May 19, 2020, 11:37:21 PM
University is definitely too strong. They don't need the -25% tech cost at all. That combined with +2 RESEARCH equalled +6 RESEARCH equivalent. I think I got into a mindset where University should be OP, running away in tech because they were always OP. I gave them +1 LABS per base instead. Which is great at the start but diminishes more like most factions 2nd/3rd benefits.
The rest I need to test more. Mainly because I played around with their aggression and priorities. Aspirants are probably like Drones, very good in human hands.
Though if you play the factions by RP (i.e. can only pick their agenda), it does change things quite a bit. Atlanteans for example have to wait a long time for a Future Society with how I have it.
Post by: Nexii on May 23, 2020, 06:00:50 AM
Atlanteans were definitely too good with research hospitals. -2 morale hurts but not like how -2 econ slows down believers. Going to try them with aquafarms instead.
CyCon continues to play poorly in AI hands (it always was terrible with conquer/pacifist). Maybe +2 effic just isn't that good? Same with techsteal it's rare to run over a faction with much better tech. I feel like no drones ever should perform better. It could be the AI priorities, no drones is better for builder than conquer. But they feel way more conquer to me. Kinda unsure what else they could get.
The rest seem ok. Cult is a bit hard to judge so far, as are the reworked fungus bonuses I'm trying out.
Post by: Nexii on June 05, 2020, 06:27:18 PM
Trying out Data Angels with free HQ at all bases. They were still kind of bad with Elite probes or vastly reduced probe costs. EC interest might also fit them, though it works kind of oddly. I may also try this benefit for CyCon although being able to ignore both EFFIC and POLICE feels very OP
Adherents might be a bit strong. It's a little surprising that -50% tech doesn't slow them as much as I feel it should.
Post by: Geo on June 06, 2020, 12:41:15 AM
Trying out Data Angels with free HQ at all bases.
Don't.
The consequence is that conquered Angel bases retain the HQ, therefore diminishing Bureaucracy drones from the conquering faction.
In a MP game I participated in back in the day the game master gave this to the AI faction. My fellow conqueror players were pleasantly surprised when they took over AI bases.
Post by: bvanevery on June 06, 2020, 08:43:43 AM
Post by: Geo on June 06, 2020, 08:49:18 AM
Does this imply that if all factions were given a free HQ in every city, then Bureaucracy and Efficiency would be rendered meaningless in the game?
Yes. Its of course not only the Bureaucracy drones that were affected, distance-to-Headquarters rules were as well.
Post by: Nexii on June 07, 2020, 03:26:59 AM