Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2018, 06:36:47 PM
Makes me think of doing an AAR about maximizing eco-damage though.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2018, 08:03:39 PM
Wait I just manufactured a workably handwave that for Planet to abide by the dictates of the council about that is that it's a psychic entity - committing atrocities upsets Planet because the soldiers know they're committing atrocities --- soon as the authorities tell them it's cool, at least according to the current Laws Of War, gas makes no problem.
I could be wrong, though. Someone should correct, if so.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2018, 08:09:58 PM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2018, 08:23:02 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 07, 2018, 05:28:58 AM
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U#)
Post by: Kirov on March 07, 2018, 04:25:06 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 07, 2018, 07:54:47 PM
I think Miriam should be allowed to have a crucifixion atrocity. Like when she captures enemy faction leaders.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2018, 07:58:48 PM
Post by: Kirov on March 07, 2018, 09:13:34 PM
I think Miriam should be allowed to have a crucifixion atrocity.
;b;
Post by: bvanevery on March 07, 2018, 11:57:22 PM
It would also be nice to have different faction "torture" artwork depending on the Politics of the faction. Miriam would crucify if Fundamentalist, but only then. Democracies don't crucify people. They might "stress position" people, or have court trials, or give Life sentences... maybe they do capitol punishment, but it wouldn't be cruel and unusual punishment. For instance, Santiago probably executes people by firing squad.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 12:00:19 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 08, 2018, 02:57:46 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 02:59:20 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 08, 2018, 03:21:07 AM
In short, I feel a need to issue a correction. Secular Humanism can in no way be seriously construed as a fundamentalist ideology, in any guise I've ever heard of. And I've read a bit of history on their various declarations, even if I'm not an expert about it.
It's a bit like trying to imagine a Quaker getting violent and shooting everyone up. Doesn't really work, except as a clowning image, or an inversion.
South Park did clown the abuse of children by an Agnostic parent, browbeating them over and over again that they DON'T KNOW the answer to whether there is a God or not, IIRC.
Secular Humanism is distinct from Secularism, which I think is capable of being more onerous. For instance, the French government has made oppressive Secular decisions at the expense of Muslims in school. Girls must remove their head scarves. They are explicitly forcing this in the name of uniform Secularism, that's what I believe I read.
This kind of forcing of physical attire, I think is morally wrong. It's definitely not very practical for their society, in that it breeds resistance and animosity. In the USA, if you want to wear a crucifix around your neck that's your business. The State doesn't get to make laws about what you can or cannot do to express your religion or lack of religion. It's the public school that cannot put a crucifix up on the wall, have the teachers teach religion or mandate adherence to it, etc. Very different from trying to control individual expression through clothing.
So I guess I need to think about what Lal's "inversion" would be. So Democratic it hurts. Or so One World Government it hurts, maybe.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 03:59:30 AM
There is no cause, no mode of thought, so rigorous, right and noble that it doesn't draw fanatics and/or ever get hopelessly perverted. -COUGHFrenchRevolution>murder>murder>murder>NapoleonAnywayCOUGH- That is the human race we're stuck with, endless 'Christians' who understand Jesus' teachings so poorly that they own guns and engage in hate politics - mainstream ones; there's always been fringe cranks. My personal political leanings are short-circuiting my intention of making some analogy in the opposite direction, 'cause I'm that sick of the fascists who took over my country a long time ago and failing to get past that.
Dude, I'm an hour's drive down I-40, and believe it or not, there are still some registered Democrats left down the hill in this state. THAT wasn't a political post; THIS is. I was thinking of Brave New World stuff, and can't believe you haven't read enough SF to get "'Cure' you of your 'antisocial tendencies'".
Post by: bvanevery on March 08, 2018, 04:39:10 AM
I-40, we're neighbors? I'm in Winston-Salem NC. 1 hour away would be either Hickory or the far side of Greensboro.
Some would charge that a culture of overwhelming Political Correctness, could be Lal's version of Fundamentalism.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 02:33:28 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 08, 2018, 03:31:33 PM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 05:09:03 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 08, 2018, 05:51:12 PM
Yeah, uh, "renting" a micro-brewery for the evening counts as one of the "heroics" I've done in the past in the face of winter. One time I even ran into a homeless guy I didn't know at this brewery, doing the same thing as myself, but on much less of a budget. I felt like I had extra resources at the time, so I bought him beer, then we went looking for Burger King to sober up. They were closed, so we went to a grocery store and bought food stamp stuff. I said "whatever you want within reason" because I had a food stamp surplus at the time. He got some perfunctory stuff, like hot dogs, soda pop, whatnot, and I gave him a ride back to the Post Office lobby where he was camping out to beat the cold. Good trick, will remember that if I'm ever on foot, although I never plan to let that happen.
Much easier to leave earlier in the season and not face winter at all. No more heroics for me.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 07:19:58 PM
Idiots. I'm trapped on Planet of the Idiots.
Post by: bvanevery on March 08, 2018, 08:24:03 PM
The question of where to choose to go, has plagued me greatly for the past 8 years. Clearly I could. Have car, will travel. I've been all over the Southeast. There is no better place to live out of a car in the summer, I've been everywhere. To do any better, I'd have to go at least as far as Colorado, and that's 2/3rds of the way across the country.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2018, 09:11:47 PM
(Boone does have ferocious thunderstorms in the summertime, so not as bakey in the car at around 80 in August, but possible to wake up parked in a new place...)
Post by: bvanevery on March 09, 2018, 12:05:24 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 09, 2018, 12:24:29 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 09, 2018, 01:29:29 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 09, 2018, 03:29:48 AM
Post by: Geo on March 09, 2018, 03:29:39 PM
I lived several years in Boone, year-round, which I gather is far worse -a Moldavian friend says the winters there managed to impress him, and that's a real winter, to impress an eastern European at all- indoors as a student, and it always struck me funny how the population literally doubled the nine months the town was not-too-habitable - and all the stupid Charlottean kids -the vast bulk of the students- went home the three nice months Charlotte was an oven and Boone rarely reached 90. Screw the skiing - the place was icy hell 3/4 of the year and empty the quarter it was one of the nicest spots to be in the state.
Idiots. I'm trapped on Planet of the Idiots.
Can't remember if we passed near or through Boone 3 years ago. It is 10 miles from Grandfather Mountain which I remember us driving by.
Anyways, early 90ties being called "nice" is an eyeopener to me. At least if its a humid 90 °F, a dry one I'd call tolerable.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 09, 2018, 07:19:45 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Post by: Geo on March 10, 2018, 02:16:37 PM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 02:37:19 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 08:35:47 PM
Freeciv, I've done multiplayer internet matches with small numbers of people, like 2 or 3. Generally I PWND them, but we were amused nonetheless. Those maps had to be pretty small, to get anything done. Freeciv also has this weird quirk of simultaneous movement, or at least that's the default. So it becomes this weird RTS hybrid where you can dance your units around a certain way to provoke your opponent into doing stupid things. The main exploit being, getting him to step forwards out of his city when he thinks he's attacking your unit next to the city. Neener neener neener! Then either walk into his city from another direction, or attack his vulnerable unit with a 2nd unit you had waiting to do that.
Post by: Vishniac on March 26, 2018, 10:39:58 PM
Someone on Reddit claims they do. Myself, I've never noticed. If they do, it's possible that I was controlling my eco-damage for other reasons and wouldn't have noticed. Forests, Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, Centauri Preserves, not going Free Market.No need to maximize anything for it to be one of the nastiest surprises of your SMAC-life.
Makes me think of doing an AAR about maximizing eco-damage though.
I'd say, for maximum effect:
- choose Svensgaard
- standard map should be enough
- have some tough opponents like Yang / Santiago / Miriam
- wait until your bases are 14 or more probably 16 and you have planes and copters.
I don't remember but I think you'll need a minimum of 10-12 chemical attacks before seeing what happens. If still nothing, well, keep on gassing!
And come back telling the tale after! ;)
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2018, 10:45:55 PM
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2018, 11:45:03 PM
before |
It took me until MY 2220 to work my people into position, but now they are ready!
after 5 gassings |
No Planet retalliation yet. However my Integrity has dropped from Noble to Dependable. Can't I apply gas with a great deal of nobility?
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 12:06:16 AM
oopsie |
daisy 7 gassings |
Lotta dead babies. Treacherous.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 12:21:36 AM
Tiny |
Tim 11 gassings |
Infamous.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 12:50:47 AM
chubby |
bunny atrocity 15 gassings |
Pirates unconquer themselves |
Pirtz SUXX |
Still just infamous. Wonder what the big deal is?
I AM NORTH KOREA!
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 01:34:00 AM
first fungal pop |
MY 2233. I've lost track of how many chemical attacks I've made. Probably slightly less than 20. I could have sworn that base was doing 3 eco-damage a minute ago. Perhaps I got confused with another base, but lots of bases are doing eco-damage now. And they're relatively low population, surrounded by forests, and the Manifold Nexus is within my control.
2 more pops the next turn, but no mindworms.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 01:54:47 AM
first mindworm |
Guess I'm doing eco-damage. Manageable so far though. With the Pirates un-conquering themselves, I have to invade them all over again. I don't have planes or marines so I don't have a way to make chemical attacks on their bases yet. I intend to find out whether Obliterating bases causes eco-damage.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2018, 01:59:05 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 02:08:13 AM
after eradicating Lal |
Wow, I know that base wasn't doing 34 eco-damage before. Planet is pissed. That's not even remotely due to industry.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 02:27:35 AM
bunch of pests |
I got a large number of attacks on my bases this turn, especially Lal's former city where I captured The Citizen's Defense Force. Last turn it was veritably surrounded by fungal pops. This turn 8 mindworms hit me and I didn't have any Trance troops in there at all. Wasn't the sort of thing I needed against Lal. They destroyed every unit except 1 Artifact in the city.
Now I'm rushing to regarrison with Scouts and Missile Rovers, as that's all I've got in the region. They are likely to destroy my X rovers; fortunatetely I don't really need them right now, but from a production standpoint this is wasteful. If this weren't a "Whee!" game I'd be quite irritated.
My home cities are far better prepared for mindworms. Plenty of Trance garrison units, Empath Recon Rovers, had time to make Sensor Arrays, etc.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 02:43:21 AM
what goes up |
They don't seem to want to stop punishing me for my earlier transgressions. There haven't been any new ones. Darned if I'm going to go Green though. I wonder how bad this would be if I didn't have the Manifold Nexus? If I hadn't known in advance that something like this would happen, I'd be really annoyed right now. SMAC making sure I'm supposed to have an un-fun game and not win. Like when you try to clean people out with nukes.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 03:09:21 AM
kick me |
I just lost 1100 credits to that. Basically, the cost of The Planetary Transit System that I was getting ready to rush. My income is only 7 credits/turn so that does hurt a lot. All that money is a lot of dead mindworms.
I quit. This is getting old. Now I know what happens, and I could fully prepare myself if I were so inclined. I did ok partially prepared, the mindworms aren't going to crack my main territory. But that flooding... I just lost 3 Formers to that, on a river bed. Cheap Formers, but still.
Let's see if there's any reason to care.
Um, yeah.
I didn't believe in the whole idea of chemical warfare causing eco-damage. It most certainly does. And it's a persistent, spammy damage that's highly annoying. My progress against the Pirates has been really slow, due to all the spam. I had to delay building The Planetary Transit System because I needed to keep on cranking out as many Empath Recon Rovers as possible. Miriam actually started building it; that's annoying.
And, uh, this game 'feature' is deeply irrational. Planet cries for humans, doesn't cry for Aliens. Clearly not concerned about the actual deadly chemicals spilling on the ground. !@#$ you Planet!! You're an @$$4073.
Next up, a bleeding heart liberal SMAC that deals with the environmental consequences of Depleted Uranium rounds.
Post by: Vishniac on March 28, 2018, 09:54:55 PM
Umm why would I wait that long?It would have made it much funnier.
With 1 rover attack, you can kill a full stack of worms. It doesn't work with Isles of the Deep and, if you already have Air Power, they are accompanied by swarms of locusts. Good luck to kill everything! If you don't know in advance, your naval bases suffer major casualties (pop and infrastructure).
First time it happened, all my cities of 14-16 pop were reduced to 2, 1 or even destroyed in 2 turns.
WORM APOCALYPSE! :o
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2018, 10:27:43 PM
The thing I don't like about this game "design" is there doesn't seem to be any relief from the onslaught. They don't seem to calm down. With industrial pollution, you can weather the storm of fungal pops and eventually you'll be left alone, if you don't do any more damage. Chemical weapons seems to be a moralizing verdict that you're an evil, evil person and must spend the entire rest of the game suffering. Unless of course you find a way to make the mindworm spamming a permanent profit center. Even then, I'm not sure that having to deal with them every turn is much of a game to play. Seems to be a substantial loss of player agency if all of your responses are determined for you.
Post by: Fibonacci on March 29, 2018, 01:06:56 AM
Post by: bvanevery on March 29, 2018, 06:19:49 AM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 29, 2018, 01:12:18 PM
I instead managed to research a lot of stuff about 4X TBS gaming forums.Rec Commons or Other Games, depending on your druthers w/ results/conclusions. Interested. ;nod
Post by: bvanevery on March 30, 2018, 07:26:35 PM
I may try a prepared go at deliberate mindworm apocalypse, probably with the Pirates as I've been contemplating a "drown everyone" game for awhile now.
I tried it, on an "Enormous" 80x160 map. It defiitely had a lot of the feeling of isolation of a 128x256 Giant map, with some factions too tedious to get to. However, I did have the University, the Caretakers, and the Usurpers as near neighbors. Not near enough to get into direct conflict unless I wanted to though. This game seemed to follow the "clumping in 1 corner" placement dynamic, which definitely can occur at 80x160, although it's not a certainty.
I went Free Market, hoping this would do enough eco-damage to start the flooding. It didn't. I got a few fungal pops before I got very bored and quit. I deliberately did not develop any land, even though I started next to the Monsoon Jungle. I had cities at size 13 and had finished a bunch of Research Hospitals when I quit. The whole game was a concerted exercise in waiting. If I make my own 4X TBS title, I must find a solution for that.
When I start again, I will use chemical weapons early and often. They are a reliable way to do seemingly permanent and sustainable eco-damage. Way faster than getting to nukes, I wasn't remotely near Orbital Spaceflight. That's a big part of why I quit. I had been waiting a long time and still no nukes. Wealth gets your facilities built but isn't the fast lane to nukes.
I debate using the Caretakers instead of the Pirates. On the positive side, I could target nukes more directly. On the negative side, when the land floods I might have to convert to a sea empire, with no special advantages in that regard. Also I'm not sure that using chemical weapons against anyone actually matters when you're an Alien. Someone hates you for it, but I don't think there's any eco-damage.
Post by: Vishniac on March 31, 2018, 09:46:23 AM
I went Free Market, hoping this would do enough eco-damage to start the flooding. It didn't. I got a few fungal pops before I got very bored and quit. I deliberately did not develop any land, even though I started next to the Monsoon Jungle. I had cities at size 13 and had finished a bunch of Research Hospitals when I quit. The whole game was a concerted exercise in waiting. If I make my own 4X TBS title, I must find a solution for that.I am not at all sure of it, that's why I told you of how it happened to me late in the game.
When I start again, I will use chemical weapons early and often. They are a reliable way to do seemingly permanent and sustainable eco-damage.
But, judging by some current game, you can go up to 26 gas attacks (estimated by the years of sanctions), have no tree farm or other control facility and still have zero ecodamage in every base.
Maybe there's a threshold in time before it all adds up suddenly or something like that.
Maybe there's a threshold at 30 attacks.
As for flooding, I think it requires more than one faction to start: more like 5-6 factions with 20 bases cranking up minerals
We should ask Mart to know how it's written in the code.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 01:29:13 PM
As for flooding, I think it requires more than one faction to start: more like 5-6 factions with 20 bases cranking up minerals
Nah. In the game I took screenshots of, I clearly did all the damage myself. The year is only 2249 when I quit. The other dominant player on the map was the Believers and they didn't have any tech. Also I don't think they went Free Market, I think they were Fundamentalist Planned. It takes a long time for other factions to do enough eco-damage to trigger a flood. I can attest to that from having played many games where I was doing 0 eco-damage and some faction all the way across the map finally gets around to ruining everything.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 04:29:03 PM
chems 1 |
Let the atrocities begin! I will endeavor to keep an accurate count of chemical attacks. This game I am "fully prepared" for what will happen. I have not taken particularly special precautions against mindworms yet. To be honest, productivity wouldn't allow for it at present. Got my hands full trying to destroy Yang. I do have the Command Nexus and almost all bases have a Trance 3-Res garrison as the minimum complement. I expect that as mindworms show up, Yang will be more nearly dead, and then "surviving mindworms" will take over as a priority.
It is annoying that I will lose a submissive ally. Lal got killed by the Caretakers. I subsequently rescued him from Caretaker HQ. Will I come to regret it?
chems 2 |
oblit 1 |
20,000 Hive colonists put to death. I wonder if the number of victims affects the Integrity rating? I'm down to "Scrupulous". And does it do eco-damage as well?
chems 3 |
chem 5 oblit 2 |
Integrity before obliteratio is "Faithful". After obliterating 40,000 colonists it drops to "Scrupulous". 2 subsequent chem attacks don't change it.
chem 7 |
chem 8 |
chem 9 |
chem 11 |
Integrity drops to "Ruthless".
chem 12 |
chem 13 |
chem 16 |
chem 19 |
Integrity drops to "Treacherous".
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 07:01:29 PM
chem 20 |
chem 26 |
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 08:27:13 PM
chem 30 |
chem 31 |
1st fungal pop |
chem 33 oblit 3 |
chem 36 |
chem 37 |
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 09:17:53 PM
chem 39 |
lost Lal |
ungrateful weenie |
religious fervor |
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 10:34:53 PM
chem 42 |
ridiculous eco damage |
chem 43 |
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 10:53:03 PM
mindworms rising |
I think I had 7..8 pops in the "between turns" period. Enough that I lost count, with all the distractions. Also got Pre-Sentient Algorithms and don't anticipate having the ability to actually build it. Maybe it's time to go Power to get my mindworm fight on.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 11:08:20 PM
serious flooding |
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 11:38:37 PM
chem 44 oblit 4 |
1 land and 1 sea city are badly beaten up and poorly garrisoned, with a big onslaught coming for the land base in 2 turns. None of my city improvements have been destroyed yet though. I have a large Sea Former fleet, and for survival I'm putting them on top of fungal sea squares, or putting them inside cities as extra defenders. Problem is I can't even see who's attacking me if they're coming through fungus.
Post by: bvanevery on March 31, 2018, 11:46:06 PM
that is a lot of water |
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 04:07:37 AM
it is getting quite wet |
Pea shooter units are not having that nice "destroy the Isles" effect that I remember getting out of fusion Chaos artillery in a different game. I'm making a round of Trance 3-Res Impact Skimships to see if the bigger guns do a better job shelling Isles. I'm also realizing that if the pea shooter Hoverboat units have no offensive advantage, then I've been cheating myself on defense. I've got Command Centers everywhere, not Naval Yards yet, so I would have been better off building defensive land units.
oblit 5 |
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 04:45:16 AM
hope others are dying |
chem 46 |
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 05:24:39 AM
please destroy a bigger base |
how much will they die |
doomed |
Post by: bvanevery on April 01, 2018, 05:46:20 AM
I think the worst thing about this, is I usually couldn't tell how many units I'd be attacked by, or which cities would get attacked. Not enough sensors to see anything.
Post by: bvanevery on April 02, 2018, 03:11:45 AM
So I will try again, and not drop my reputation to Infamous until I've got the needed tools. I think I will start a new thread about that, if there's anything to say. If the verdict is "it still sucked" then I'll give up as too awful to do.
Post by: bvanevery on April 02, 2018, 08:44:30 AM
I played that game with no supply pods. I suppose that's a mistake if I don't want to waste lots of real world time and want to get on with the mindworm apocalypse.
Post by: Vishniac on April 02, 2018, 11:37:54 AM
If you resume this game, you can check once and for all whether your fusion units have double power against worms or not.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 02, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 02, 2018, 03:56:57 PM
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 02, 2018, 04:28:40 PM
Post by: bvanevery on April 03, 2018, 05:07:20 AM
artifact driven |
I played on an Enormous map, this time with pods enabled, and consequently had a much easier time staying ahead of other factions. However it still takes forever to get to Fusion Power. I only got it fairly recently and it's MY 2317. I've spent all day on this game pretty much. It's midnight as I write this up, and I'm quitting. Problem is, I've developed all this nice beautiful land, all sorts of hand tilled earth. I do not want to flood it. Also there's a serious problem playing on an Enormous map, my enemies are out of range. I suppose I could put X Marines on ships if I got Neural Grafting, a remaining prereq for the onslaught that I still haven't obtained. That's even more waiting. This basically isn't a good decision path through the game.
Ugh what to do... you know, if someone devised a thoroughly useless portion of the map, like tiles that automatically kill you or something, I wouldn't beat myself up about avoiding that part of the game. Yet here are these sloughs, of chemical weapons and nukes, that are basically not profitable portions of the game. Why do I torture myself about this? Lack of anything else to do in the game?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2018, 05:09:54 AM