How American Christians can stop being bullies and start winning converts

[Yitzi]

30% of that isn't proven and might as well be fictional/overblown

There isn't really any merit in saying that God exists but that stuff is fictional, though.

the rest of it is purely historical

True, though that doesn't mean God didn't do it.

and the last one is just political bigotry.

Time will tell.

Abrahamic religions just seem hateful to me, even their god seems hateful and retributive.

There is certainly retribution there, but hatred of people or groups is actually fairly uncommon and generally a response to really major offenses.

As for if I acknowledged a religion and believed in it, yes I would still think them psychotic for acting like that because I would be believing in the morality and core themes of the faith over anything, not what some mad prophet or self proclaimed listener to a god would say.

Ok, that makes sense.  But does that mean that if the prophet could actually prove that God spoke to him, it would be a different story?

And as for the truth of things Yitzi- evidence is the only way to determine the truth.

Be that as it may, there can still be non-determinable truths.

The Earth was not formed in 7 days, the Earth is older then 10,000 years.

It's older than 10,000 years, but I'm not so sure that that can't be described via 5 days and the end of a 6th (I'm fairly certain that the first day of Genesis and most of the second are the universe before the formation of the Earth.)  Of course, that would mean days far longer than 24 hours, but seeing as a day is almost never exactly 24 hours (today in New York is 1 minute 26 seconds short of 24 hours, due to sunset getting earlier), that doesn't seem too problematic.

[Green1]

Ok, that makes sense.  But does that mean that if the prophet could actually prove that God spoke to him, it would be a different story?

It sure helps. Even then, it would be hoped you could question such things for your own well being.

Let me give you an example. In the Torah/ Old Testament there is the story of Abraham being "told by YHWH" to take his son off to sacrifice him. Now, of course, he ended not going through with it because apparently he heard the voice again telling him that "his faith" was being tested.

Now, I have a daughter. Next time I see her, what if I said "God spoke to me" and cart her off into the swamps to sacrifice her? Then I get out there with the mosquitoes biting and Mr. Alligator grinning at me and "God" speaks again and changes his mind?

I would be locked up in the Louisiana State penitentiary at Angola if I tried that or at least have Child Protective Services on my rear and a kid who would hate my guts for pretty good reason.

Who is to say that God spoke to me?  Or if I was just nuts then changed my mind?

See what I am going at? You need proof or else it could be a delusion, insanity, hatefulness, Satan, aliens from Alpha Centauri, beings from Atlantis, the Illuminate, or anything.... More than likely delusion. Then you get to the point where if it was something someone disagreed with, they could say it was something totally else like a demon or something. It never ends.

While there are things we may not understand or ever understand in our lifetimes, I think it is better to error on the side of logic and proof than blind faith or believing something "just because it was written or told".

[Yitzi]

Ok, that makes sense.  But does that mean that if the prophet could actually prove that God spoke to him, it would be a different story?

Let me give you an example. In the Torah/ Old Testament there is the story of Abraham being "told by YHWH" to take his son off to sacrifice him. Now, of course, he ended not going through with it because apparently he heard the voice again telling him that "his faith" was being tested.

Now, I have a daughter. Next time I see her, what if I said "God spoke to me" and cart her off into the swamps to sacrifice her? Then I get out there with the mosquitoes biting and Mr. Alligator grinning at me and "God" speaks again and changes his mind?

I would be locked up in the Louisiana State penitentiary at Angola if I tried that or at least have Child Protective Services on my rear and a kid who would hate my guts for pretty good reason.

Who is to say that God spoke to me?  Or if I was just nuts then changed my mind?

True.  Of course, this wasn't the first time that God had spoken to Abraham.  For that matter, He did several overt miracles (most notably a post-menopausal woman giving birth), so there wasn't any issue of Abraham's sanity at hand.

In an analogous current situation, one should expect similar levels of proof (though the standard is via falsifiable predictions of the future rather than the more conventional form of miracle.)

[Green1]

So, I could just say that God told me to do something and if I had significant standing in the community (in Abraham's case, a tribal patriarch) and a history of visions and such, no one should question me?

It just does not seem "kosher", so to speak. Not right.

That would mean anyone in a position of power or respect could say God told them something, and it ia A-OK. God told me to kill my wife. Awesome, she must have been a Satan worshipping hussy. God told me to kill those folks over there. Awesome. They must deserve it.

Now, if there were logic instead, even those situations may be viable. Yes, it may be okay to kill my wife in self defense if she takes a gun to my head to kill me because she wants to marry some other dude and collect my life insurance. Yes, it may be okay to kill those folks over there because they are trying to kill us. God should have little to do with it.

[JarlWolf]

Which is exactly my point Green- logic should be the ONLY thing governing our actions when it comes to that...


As for non-determinable truths: If they cannot be determined they are not a truth. They are simply not determined and thus, unknown. Saying something is true without knowing it isn't being truthful its being ignorant.

And if a prophet proven they had been spoken to by god (whatever the means and however that means im not going to question) I would immediately lose faith in that religion if it what the "god" said was bloodthirsty. I would lose respect for the god and find it a hypocrite and then become an atheist.

Superstition and believing in the will of a "god" has caused large amounts of pain and suffering. The term witch hunt was coined out of the Salem witch trials after all and similar practices in Europe where innocent men and women were "trialed" and effectively lynched/murdered based on hearsay of "sins" and complete utter bullocks. When you throw logic out the window and rely completely on faith you march blindly- faith can move mountains, on top of you when you go into a cave thinking God is in there with tea and biscuits for your obedience. If anything the fact there is a whole other divinity called Satan/Lucifer whichever you prefer in Abrahamic religions bent on tricking people as well as questioning god makes me wonder if the whole religion isn't just a way to explain schizophrenia in a colourful way by using history.

(That's a joke, that last bit.. but even so.)

[Green1]

BTW, Yitzi. A bit of disclaimer and background.

I do realize the powerful socialization of the church and religion. I live in the South US and live this day to day, but have found allies and friends. You will not be permitted to or even acknowledge some points that me or Jarlwolf make. If you were to do so, you stand the risk of losing very powerful support groups. I do not believe Judaism is as hardcore as some Christian groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses or Pentecostals, but I am sure if there were things you doubted you would be "corrected".

But, if you ever question things... and as a logic oriented person who plays transhumanist games and edits in assembly you will... the Unitarians and Atheists will stand by you. 

But, this takes nothing away from any talents you possess. I wanted to make that clear before I take the gloves off UUs know the holy texts better than most fundamentalists

You have friends....

[Yitzi]

So, I could just say that God told me to do something and if I had significant standing in the community (in Abraham's case, a tribal patriarch) and a history of visions and such, no one should question me?

Not unless you had a history of those visions accurately predicting the future (in which case the standing in the community is irrelevant).  Not sure if the "false prediction gets you killed" rule would need to be in place and enforceable too, at this point in time.  (It obviously wasn't for Abraham, but the situation were different then.)

The status to break the normal rules because God told you to is something not easily or safely attained (to put it mildly) without God's help.

[Green1]

So, I could just say that God told me to do something and if I had significant standing in the community (in Abraham's case, a tribal patriarch) and a history of visions and such, no one should question me?

Not unless you had a history of those visions accurately predicting the future (in which case the standing in the community is irrelevant).  Not sure if the "false prediction gets you killed" rule would need to be in place and enforceable too, at this point in time.  (It obviously wasn't for Abraham, but the situation were different then.)

The status to break the normal rules because God told you to is something not easily or safely attained (to put it mildly) without God's help.

...in by meaning "God's help and influence", you mean achieving a position of power that is unquestionable? In today's society, we have that somewhat. The mayor of New York can hit a homeless person upside his face. A homeless person can not return the favor. The mayor can claim the homeless person was trying to accost him and few would find issue. But, that situation was not because God allowed that person become the mayor of New York or that somehow the homeless person was punished by God. It was because of cumulative choices by each individual and a bit of luck or bad luck.

[Yitzi]

...in by meaning "God's help and influence", you mean achieving a position of power that is unquestionable?

I did not say "help and influence", just "help".  As in, "stuff that, from the perspective of science, might as well be overt miracles" sort of help.  If you want to be unquestioned when you say "God told me to do X", you'd better have a history of saying "God told me X" and having it proven right.

[JarlWolf]

Which allows con artists to thrive, because if I make predictions or prophecies of stuff that I can guarantee happening, or have inside information on, then I can fool masses of people into believing I am holy.

This is how cults work to an extent and quite frankly is not hard to do. People make a living out of fooling others, and religions are probably the worst of it because you got whole industry's in numerous country's dedicated to directly conning people. "Miraclemakers" in the United States for example, stuff that Green1 mentioned earlier...

[Yitzi]

Which allows con artists to thrive, because if I make predictions or prophecies of stuff that I can guarantee happening, or have inside information on, then I can fool masses of people into believing I am holy.

In an organized religion, though, it's not the masses you need to fool but the religious experts...and they'll usually have a better sense of how to catch fraudsters and limit it to things that cannot be predicted without supernatural means.

[JarlWolf]

In an organized religion, though, it's not the masses you need to fool but the religious experts...and they'll usually have a better sense of how to catch fraudsters and limit it to things that cannot be predicted without supernatural means.

Which they themselves can predict of course. They don't allow cons in their business because they are the best at it...

Though, money can help too.

[Yitzi]

In an organized religion, though, it's not the masses you need to fool but the religious experts...and they'll usually have a better sense of how to catch fraudsters and limit it to things that cannot be predicted without supernatural means.

Which they themselves can predict of course.

Not if the system is working right, though false prophets have been a problem in the past...

[Green1]

I have been thinking about the second part of the issue, other than being bullies. The bully part is just always being right and the occasional outright purge of nonbelievers to subtle condescension.

Converts.

I thing Christianity in particular uses the passages in the New Testament called, "The Great Commission" in which Jesus said to minister to Jews and gentiles alike to mean showing up and throwing religion in peoples face. Not all do that, but there are groups that descend upon events like Mardi Gras that get pretty obnoxious. The churches that use that are very off putting and make folks on the fence not really want to go.

Many churches I have gone to but not all do not have much interaction between the members. They come there for the sermon, then there is a cloud of dust in the parking lot to get out of there and enjoy the rest on Sunday. In fact, it is discouraged to go there "just to network or socialize" because you are supposed to be there to "praise and worship the Lord".

Many make you sing 100 year old hymns, even if you have no love of singing. Oh, I am sure you can refuse, But it gets the odd look or two. In fact, most protestant services have not changed the itenery in 200 years. It is always Benediction, talk a little bit, sing, talk a bit more, sing, talk even more, offering plate, then pray. This is even "atheist friendly" places like UU. Can't we shake it up a bit?

And speaking of offering plates, many get persistent about tithing. Now, I realize ministers must get paid and the building needs maintenance and air conditioning but some of them get pushy. If you read the Book of Acts, there is a story of a couple who under tithed who got "struck dead by the Lord"!!!

Now some of the mega churches are almost like YMCAs with gyms, swimming pools, and even bowling allies. You do get child care for the hour or so you are in the chapel most places, they will marry you (for a small fee... err additional tithe), speak at your funeral, and some one to check on you in a hospital. But the actual Sunday services still suck!

But, the stodgy nature of many churches make it feel like a chore to go to. Unless you are a kid and get to meet other kids not in your school you would never meet otherwise in between being bombarded with Bible stuff. It is just not fun.

Add to that, most folks only convert maybe once or twice in their lifetimes. If someone is Jewish, they will be unlikely be swayed by the Baptists. Nor will most of the stronger atheists convert to Mormonism. Only during certain, select few times in life will anyone change. And, they will only change if there is something deeply wrong, the current religion is not meeting needs, they get married to a zealot and must compromise, a gun is to their head, or they get tired of the BS and move from agnostic to atheist.

[JarlWolf]

ninja'd by a green villain

Indeed. And that's why religion scares me because, like any ideal it can be manipulated by the corrupt. Religion is even worse for it though because you are tapping into something spiritual for people, and spirituality is a VERY sensitive and to the heart subject for most people.

I might not believe in a god or believe in an afterlife, but that does NOT mean I am not spiritual in my sense. My spirituality is concerned with empathy I have for my fellow human beings and an overall sense of greater good- which can be manipulated. Its tied to my ideal, yes, but its not simply morality either. Religion's in my eyes are very horrid in this sense in that its trying to directly control your spirituality and interpretation of it, and if you add in those malevolent cons and "false prophets" you end up in a world of hurt.

I've seen an entire region turn into a quagmire of warfare because of this, because of men exploiting each other and twisting and using religious thought and ideas as a means to inspire people towards their bloodthirsty causes. So, im very cautious and even disturbed by religion getting dominance; which is a form of paranoia but I would say its one rightfully earned.



As for Green1's post:

Which to me shows that it just seems like its a tradition people uphold only for social peer pressure, really. I never found any comfort from a religion initially in my life as a child, and when I discovered it later if anything I was disturbed by its most basic views. I find an all powerful god that created the universe and all with it, and judges everyone in it (even though HE was the creator who designed us like this, according to said religions) scares and makes me uncomfortable. Not only that it slightly disgusts me in the sense that it feels like a parent who judges their child, not bothering to raise that child and teach them things and just letting them grow up on their own, and then when they are adults who had to survive on the streets they scold them for what they developed into.

It just seems sick and wrong to me even on fundamental levels and I can't agree to it.

Also, on another note my daughter sent me this a while back: made me laugh and I think its relevant...

Church of Satan | Metalocalypse | Adult Swim

And followup with this... (contains some language)

All the Same | Metalocalypse | Adult Swim