let us play

[Buster's Uncle]

I'm sure the MPlayers will set us straight on that...

[Yabcok]

Playing on automatically generated map is very risky – starting location quality (continent size, moisture on landing site, special landmarks, etc.) and all the distractors nearby (hostile AI just few squares away) can have significant impact on your chances to grow quickly – if the differences are too big (and with random placement they usually are) it may be a game breaker for a part of the players. For example – when you start on 3x3 island, from one point of view you can consider it as a challenge, but from the other, and probably more rational side, you can think of it as of having to spend a year or two playing a game, your chances to win were close to zero since the first turn. My personal vote is that the chances should be possibly close to equal for all the players what without CMN can’t be guaranteed.     

[Yitzi]

Playing on automatically generated map is very risky – starting location quality (continent size, moisture on landing site, special landmarks, etc.) and all the distractors nearby (hostile AI just few squares away) can have significant impact on your chances to grow quickly – if the differences are too big (and with random placement they usually are) it may be a game breaker for a part of the players.

And playing on a map where those things don't happen is a definite game breaker for part of the players, namely those playing the Believers, Spartans, and Cult.  (Probably Hive as well.)  Some factions need early-game conflict to give them a chance to use their strengths and keep the builders under control.

Basically, a CMN leads to a game where everyone can grow quickly, but that's unfair to non-builders.

For example – when you start on 3x3 island, from one point of view you can consider it as a challenge, but from the other, and probably more rational side, you can think of it as of having to spend a year or two playing a game, your chances to win were close to zero since the first turn. My personal vote is that the chances should be possibly close to equal for all the players what without CMN can’t be guaranteed.   

Whereas I think that on random maps it's at least close to equal before map generation, whereas with a CMN-made map even that won't happen, as he's probably not going to allow for the chance of early-game conflict that momentum factions need.

That said, a 3X3 island is a problem (even with a free starting transport), but I think that's fairly rare (and if needed, some "conditions for restart" can be made when making the game, though a nearby enemy should not be among them).

[Yabcok]

Playing on automatically generated map is very risky – starting location quality (continent size, moisture on landing site, special landmarks, etc.) and all the distractors nearby (hostile AI just few squares away) can have significant impact on your chances to grow quickly – if the differences are too big (and with random placement they usually are) it may be a game breaker for a part of the players.

And playing on a map where those things don't happen is a definite game breaker for part of the players, namely those playing the Believers, Spartans, and Cult.  (Probably Hive as well.)  Some factions need early-game conflict to give them a chance to use their strengths and keep the builders under control.

Basically, a CMN leads to a game where everyone can grow quickly, but that's unfair to non-builders.

For example – when you start on 3x3 island, from one point of view you can consider it as a challenge, but from the other, and probably more rational side, you can think of it as of having to spend a year or two playing a game, your chances to win were close to zero since the first turn. My personal vote is that the chances should be possibly close to equal for all the players what without CMN can’t be guaranteed.   

Whereas I think that on random maps it's at least close to equal before map generation, whereas with a CMN-made map even that won't happen, as he's probably not going to allow for the chance of early-game conflict that momentum factions need.

That said, a 3X3 island is a problem (even with a free starting transport), but I think that's fairly rare (and if needed, some "conditions for restart" can be made when making the game, though a nearby enemy should not be among them).

That’s all true, but most of the players seem to prefer builders approach and therefore most of the games are launched on those typical, “well balanced” maps.

But please let me assure you that “well balanced” map is not a game breaker for Cult – as per last several years, I’m ready and willing to play as The Cult of Planet against all those builders, no matter the odds! I’ve been the Cultist since the beginning and I’m really sure they have equal chances even on (theoretically) builders-orientated maps, so I fell completely comfortable with them.
 
About the idea of conditional restarts, I think it’s a really good one, but I doubt if any builder would risk joining the game without the warranty there are no momentum players nearby – the probability of early conflict would be too high for them.   

[Yitzi]

That’s all true, but most of the players seem to prefer builders approach and therefore most of the games are launched on those typical, “well balanced” maps.

Well sure, if they're all builders and happy with it, but I consider that a less genuine game.

But please let me assure you that “well balanced” map is not a game breaker for Cult – as per last several years, I’m ready and willing to play as The Cult of Planet against all those builders, no matter the odds! I’ve been the Cultist since the beginning and I’m really sure they have equal chances even on (theoretically) builders-orientated maps, so I fell completely comfortable with them.

Cult gets interesting anyway; Believers might be a better example.
 

About the idea of conditional restarts, I think it’s a really good one, but I doubt if any builder would risk joining the game without the warranty there are no momentum players nearby – the probability of early conflict would be too high for them.

That's part of the risk; if they have early conflict it'll be harder than had they played a hybrid or momentum faction, but if they don't then they'll have an advantage.  As long as things are considered over a sequence of games rather than a single game changing rankings dramatically*, that won't be a problem.

*So it would require a different ranking system than the current one, but there are other disadvantages to the current one (e.g. that it tends to create simple 1v1 conflicts rather than richer multiplayer play) anyway.

[Yabcok]

 

That's part of the risk; if they have early conflict it'll be harder than had they played a hybrid or momentum faction, but if they don't then they'll have an advantage.  As long as things are considered over a sequence of games rather than a single game changing rankings dramatically*, that won't be a problem.

I think there is one more very interesting choice (I played few times with) – you can ask CMN to prepare the game with equal starting locations, but ask him to randomize distance between players (33% chances to be very close, 33% to be moderate and 33% to be as distant as possible). It guarantees equal starting locations, but makes the distances unpredictable (in theory – in practice, due to the borderlines bug, usually you can estimate exact scenario since the first cities are built and borderlines are drawn).

[Yitzi]

I think there is one more very interesting choice (I played few times with) – you can ask CMN to prepare the game with equal starting locations, but ask him to randomize distance between players (33% chances to be very close, 33% to be moderate and 33% to be as distant as possible).

That could work, though I still think I prefer a bit more randomness.

It guarantees equal starting locations, but makes the distances unpredictable (in theory – in practice, due to the borderlines bug, usually you can estimate exact scenario since the first cities are built and borderlines are drawn).

What is the borderlines bug?

[Yabcok]

What is the borderlines bug?

Borderlines are always set 6 squares away from your cities, until you have any neighbors – if you have them, borderlines are set in half of the distance between closest pairs of cities, no matter you see the cities of your neighbors or not. So in short: less than 6 squares = other player nearby. You can even predict exact locations of the cities you don't see.

The only way to workaround that bug (by CMN) is to put an ocean between close neighbors, to assure the surprise, but in most cases it can be predicted as well (another bug or maybe intentional property - distant relief visible when “show fattened terrain” option is off).

In one word, there is no place for surprises, if you know the game well...    

[Yabcok]

So let me return to the main topic - anyone interested in starting a new PBEM?   

[Yitzi]

What is the borderlines bug?

Borderlines are always set 6 squares away from your cities, until you have any neighbors – if you have them, borderlines are set in half of the distance between closest pairs of cities, no matter you see the cities of your neighbors or not. So in short: less than 6 squares = other player nearby. You can even predict exact locations of the cities you don't see.

That's not a bug; it just means that you only have to get halfway to a nearby city to find it.

And in any case, even if you know that the Believers or Spartans are nearby, they'll still have the advantage (but of course if they're far away from anyone else they'll have a disadvantage.)

[Yabcok]

That's not a bug; it just means that you only have to get halfway to a nearby city to find it.

To tell the truth I’m not sure if I fell it this way – one shouldn’t be aware of something he hasn’t explored, but it’s a fact, that it may be considered as intentional, if we look at it from different side...

And in any case, even if you know that the Believers or Spartans are nearby, they'll still have the advantage (but of course if they're far away from anyone else they'll have a disadvantage.)

That’s true, so the only way to follow if you decide to use typical map (quite distant starting locations set by CMN) is not to choose them...

[Yitzi]

That’s true, so the only way to follow if you decide to use typical map (quite distant starting locations set by CMN) is not to choose them...

...Which is pretty much the definition of "unbalanced".

[t_ras]

Ok, enough philosofy.
Im back in town and we have here Yabcok (welcome back!), typhoeus and probablly Tarvok.
What game are you after? builder or conqueror?

[Yabcok]

Ok, enough philosofy.
Im back in town and we have here Yabcok (welcome back!), typhoeus and probablly Tarvok.
What game are you after? builder or conqueror?

I’ve already attached a list of preferred settings to start the discussion about game set-up (attaching again below).

I’ll be offline till Sunday.

[t_ras]

Well typhoeus, Tarvok? Is this OK with you?