SE choices for AI - suggestions

[Yitzi]

While this is tangenting a little bit, as a person who's made an epic mod that's largely ignored by everyone, I'd advise to keep it to "tweak" levels rather than new things entirely. Unless you get a lot of positive feedback of course.

I'm definitely planning to keep it to "tweak" levels.  The only really new thing (rather than formula or techtree tweaks, and a few house rules and a new mechanic just to tweak a few problem points) will be a ranking system for multiplayer which is designed to have all sorts of desirable properties (from encouraging attempts at solo victory to allowing handicaps via difficulty level/random faction selection to being able to tolerate a game where luck has a substantial role to play.)

[Kirov]

I think that by targeting mainly the strategies that most people dislike (ICS, heavy energy focus, and air power will probably be the biggest targets) and those that clearly unbalance the game (e.g. those that make the race for midgame projects into purely a tech race, rather than a combination of techs and production), that should cut down on the dropouts.  And if you essentially get two different games, that's ok too.

Well, I think it's more like Kilkakon says. The first time I came here, I couldn't even find players for a game with crawlers and choppers banned, and if this thingies are not OP, then truly nothing is. So it's thoughtful to keep things optional. I imagine you'd lose a player or two if you changed as much as the period between council proposals by three turns. People play vanilla, they got used to exploit stuff like crawlers, air, ICS or shell upgrade and I'm afraid not much can be done about it. Hell, even I shed a tear for that bugged Children Creche, because I really relied on it, and I'm a guy who really understands that this bug must go.

This became a vicious circle in itself - personally I have nothing against mods, but I don't explore this topic too much for I know I won't find co-players to it anyway.

I think I managed to play once the Smaniac mod with other players, but it was a couple of years ago.

[Yitzi]

Well, I think it's more like Kilkakon says. The first time I came here, I couldn't even find players for a game with crawlers and choppers banned, and if this thingies are not OP, then truly nothing is.

Admittedly, there are probably better fixes than banning them, and when I finish there almost certainly will be.

So it's thoughtful to keep things optional. I imagine you'd lose a player or two if you changed as much as the period between council proposals by three turns. People play vanilla, they got used to exploit stuff like crawlers, air, ICS or shell upgrade and I'm afraid not much can be done about it. Hell, even I shed a tear for that bugged Children Creche, because I really relied on it, and I'm a guy who really understands that this bug must go.

It actually works the same as it always did if you have negative MORALE; I think it's only the penalty with positive MORALE that Kyrub removed.
But clearly people got used to exploiting those things...but if they want a challenge, maybe they can try single-player Transcend with my planned mod (once it's ready).  As for multiplayer, I see it essentially being two different games, one full of exploits and the other more balanced.

But creating options rather than imposing your way on everyone is often a good idea.  Not always (in particular, anything with a strong ethical component does poorly if it considers itself merely an option), but for something like a game mod, it's generally a good idea (though not worth the effort in certain cases, most notably things like the Nessus Mining Station bug I fixed.)

[kyrub]

People play vanilla, they got used to exploit stuff like crawlers, air, ICS or shell upgrade and I'm afraid not much can be done about it.
This became a vicious circle in itself - personally I have nothing against mods, but I don't explore this topic too much for I know I won't find co-players to it anyway.

So well said.

By the way: One of the things mentioned in your AI patch was beelining; will that make the AI play badly if various dependencies/tech-bonuses/etc. are moved around?   

Yes, if you change the position of some techs, the AI will end up beelining another tech. The beelining should probably be in alpha.txt, for modding purposes. (But in my modest opinion, modding for SMACX is dead, because nobody tends to play the mods that are created. Or am I wrong?)

   

I can switch off this behaviour easily, if you wish. If I'm right, it works like this: Zak has knowledge set as his preferred agenda, so he programmatically avoid the other options. That's in the code.

Yes, I'm strongly in favour of this solution. No need to handicap AI in the way humans aren't. Besides, they still can't run their 'opposite' choices, I think it's in their respective faction files.

I think I have an elegant solution here.
What about: If AI likes an option A, than options B or C are not totally excluded  (like now) but the whole SE "position" is worth 25% less. This will make AI
a) switch to the other possibilities when the A option is not yet researched
b) prefer A option to B and C massively
c) still use B or C when highly valuable

@Kirov
When I am saying the AI is complex it does not mean it uses its power well. But it has massive space in the code, which is good for me and potentially for the game improvement. The kind of stuff you ahve mentioned is absolutely normal in the code, BUT the AI tends to run along the five magical numbers in alpha.txt - e.g. aggressivity, power, growth, commerce, eco, instead of "I am running FM, so...". So you may mod it easily, but it's lot more stupid. As a result, the AI is fully moddable, but quite inept.

[Yitzi]

Yes, if you change the position of some techs, the AI will end up beelining another tech. The beelining should probably be in alpha.txt, for modding purposes.

In that case:
1. What do you have it beeline?  Some of it might be adjustable to be based on the tech that gives X feature.
2. Would it be possible to write separate AIs for beelining and not-beelining in the same program?  If so, I can show you how to make it based on an alpha.txt variable.  (Note: For SMAC, you will need to reduce some limit (I used the landmark limit) to make room.)
3. Did you include the beelining in the SMAX mod as well, or just SMAC?
4. While we're on the subject, what terraforming did you teach it in the SMAX mod?  In particular, is it going to use boreholes and condensers like crazy?

But in my modest opinion, modding for SMACX is dead, because nobody tends to play the mods that are created. Or am I wrong?

If a good mod is created, interested players will be found.

   Yes, I'm strongly in favour of this solution. No need to handicap AI in the way humans aren't. Besides, they still can't run their 'opposite' choices, I think it's in their respective faction files.

That said, they still should focus on those somewhat, as they tend to work well with those factions.

I think I have an elegant solution here.
What about: If AI likes an option A, than options B or C are not totally excluded  (like now) but the whole SE "position" is worth 25% less. This will make AI
a) switch to the other possibilities when the A option is not yet researched
b) prefer A option to B and C massively
c) still use B or C when highly valuable

That sounds very good.

[Lord Avalon]

(But in my modest opinion, modding for SMACX is dead, because nobody tends to play the mods that are created. Or am I wrong?)

Discussion/interest seems to have picked up, and maybe having a SMACentric site is part of that.

[Yitzi]

One more thing, Kyrub: When you're almost ready to do (i.e. actually start changing the file, not just finding stuff and designing the code) a SMAX mod, please let me know so I can post my current progress so that you can work from there.

[Kilkakon]

Yes, if you change the position of some techs, the AI will end up beelining another tech. The beelining should probably be in alpha.txt, for modding purposes. (But in my modest opinion, modding for SMACX is dead, because nobody tends to play the mods that are created. Or am I wrong?)

I can testify that modding is dead! At least for big things, it seems. I've spent two years of my life on a game nobody online has played and survived to tell the tale. Woo! I'm probably killing people without realising. XD

But that's not the point of this thread. I'd agree that having them work off the rules rather than hardcoded settings is better as otherwise they'll be really lolligagged/freaked out by some mods (e.g. crawlers are disabled in my game, and some more mods, not sure what would happen if the AI beelined to them).

I think I have an elegant solution here.
What about: If AI likes an option A, than options B or C are not totally excluded  (like now) but the whole SE "position" is worth 25% less. This will make AI
a) switch to the other possibilities when the A option is not yet researched
b) prefer A option to B and C massively
c) still use B or C when highly valuable

Can you make it take immunities to negative stats and civics into account? E.g. Hive's immunity to negative EFFIC, or one of the secret project's immunity to Cybernetic? Or is that automatic in the considerations?



Oh by the way! Some good news. I managed to get both Kyrub's and Yitzi's patches working on my laptop. The catch is that they MUST use DirectDraw=0 using that patch or it won't run. The other catch is that DirectDraw=0 doesn't like my laptop either, as even the basic game with only scient's patch will crash in a few turns after a bit of exploration.

[Yitzi]

I can testify that modding is dead! At least for big things, it seems. I've spent two years of my life on a game nobody online has played and survived to tell the tale. Woo! I'm probably killing people without realising. XD

There is a difference between total conversion mods and tweak mods.

But that's not the point of this thread. I'd agree that having them work off the rules rather than hardcoded settings is better as otherwise they'll be really lolligagged/freaked out by some mods (e.g. crawlers are disabled in my game, and some more mods, not sure what would happen if the AI beelined to them).

Well, at least that still gives hab complexes, which are also pretty important.  But what if mineral and energy lifting restrictions are moved, and it still beelines to Environmental Economics?

Oh by the way! Some good news. I managed to get both Kyrub's and Yitzi's patches working on my laptop. The catch is that they MUST use DirectDraw=0 using that patch or it won't run. The other catch is that DirectDraw=0 doesn't like my laptop either, as even the basic game with only scient's patch will crash in a few turns after a bit of exploration.

Sounds like a graphics issue with your laptop.

[Green1]

Some of these laptops have weird resolution. Top that off with a game designed for the drivers and cards of a decade ago, you have that problem. This even happens on modern games, but the modern games have far more flexible graphics settings than AC.

BTW.. I am loving all the discourse on AI. I have been staying silent to let the experts speak since I was a previous years long lurker and others can put what changes are good better than me.

I am sure there are many more like myself. In fact, I know there are.

[Kilkakon]

There is a difference between total conversion mods and tweak mods.

Naturally, hence my line "at least for the big things".

Well, at least that still gives hab complexes, which are also pretty important.  But what if mineral and energy lifting restrictions are moved, and it still beelines to Environmental Economics?

That's what I mean--would be better to beeline to specific, valuable technologies, such the prereqs for certain facilities, tech req. for mineral lifting, etc. It's the perfect example as my mineral lifting tech is different from hab complexes and all the tech keys are changed.

Sounds like a graphics issue with your laptop.

Yeah definitely, it can't handle Baldur's Gate (even the GoG.com version) in full screen either, have to hard reset that (which is what happens with DirectDraw=0 off). So won't be able to use the nice patches for MP, but no biggie at this stage.

Agreed @ AI being better.

[Yitzi]

That's what I mean--would be better to beeline to specific, valuable technologies, such the prereqs for certain facilities, tech req. for mineral lifting, etc. It's the perfect example as my mineral lifting tech is different from hab complexes and all the tech keys are changed.

Actually, by default mineral lifting is different from hab complexes; mineral lifting goes with advanced terraforming (raise/lower/boreholes/mirrors/condensers), and hab complexes go with crawlers (and a commerce boost).

(In Alien Crossfire 1.5, however, I do plan to move mineral lifting to go with (greatly depowered) crawlers and hab complexes (but ditch the commerce boost), in order to have the three resource lifting techs be parallel (I plan to move energy lifting to Optical Computers, which is really looking lonely at the moment) rather than in succession, in order to reduce beelining (and make not everybody beeline for the same things).

[kyrub]

@Yitzi
Please keep this thread free of discussion about modding, mod plans and about concrete existing mods. A mod changes game's rules, the AI patch, however, changes only the way how the game (with original rules) is being played by AI. These themes are quite different, I think. (I realise I made the mistake myself, while reacting to Kirov post, sorry.)

Other notes on AI or technical issues are most welcome.

BTW.. I am loving all the discourse on AI. I have been staying silent to let the experts speak since I was a previous years long lurker and others can put what changes are good better than me.

@Green
No expert stature is necessary. If you want to contribute, try to use the patch, write about your experience, what seemed weird/wrong. "Test" in the patch subtitle means it needs testing and I need feedback. I stopped developping previous AI patch versions because of week feedback.

In that case:
1. What do you have it beeline?  Some of it might be adjustable to be based on the tech that gives X feature.
2. Would it be possible to write separate AIs for beelining and not-beelining in the same program?  If so, I can show you how to make it based on an alpha.txt variable.  (Note: For SMAC, you will need to reduce some limit (I used the landmark limit) to make room.)
3. Did you include the beelining in the SMAX mod as well, or just SMAC?
4. While we're on the subject, what terraforming did you teach it in the SMAX mod?  In particular, is it going to use boreholes and condensers like crazy?

1. Not in this thread, please, start another one (like AI - research choices) and I will try to answer there.
2. This would be quite helpful. There should be an option to switch AI beelining off completely. BTW, if you put in the "Random research" option for yourself, it's not completely random, you are actually using the AI beelining... You should be able to choose "Completely random research" to increase the challenge.
3. No. SMAX patch has only the "basic terraforming lesson" included + the bug fixes. All other stuff is not there, even the extra care for formers and recycling tanks is gone...
4. It's basic terraforming, not the top stuff. Look there for details: http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/195007-SMAC-444-%28AI-experiment%29?p=5933522&viewfull=1#post5933522. If you want to respond, create a new thread on AI terraforming, please. Let's leave this thread focused on AI social engineering and its context.

Can you make it take immunities to negative stats and civics into account? E.g. Hive's immunity to negative EFFIC, or one of the secret project's immunity to Cybernetic? Or is that automatic in the considerations?

I think so. I'll give it a second look.

[Yitzi]

1. Not in this thread, please, start another one (like AI - research choices) and I will try to answer there.
2. This would be quite helpful. There should be an option to switch AI beelining off completely. BTW, if you put in the "Random research" option for yourself, it's not completely random, you are actually using the AI beelining... You should be able to choose "Completely random research" to increase the challenge.

Send me a message when you're ready to hear the details of how to do it.

[Green1]

@Kyrub and Yitzi.

In an ancient post on CFC, there was a guy that figured out how to get all AIs to play themselves. It had something to do with going into world builder, setting the player faction to AI, then pressing END TURN till your finger fell off.

It has me wondering if there is a short hack to automate that process.

It would help with testing how they are doing with different SE choices.