Thinker mod military capability, attempt 4

[bvanevery]

MY 2227.  I complete the Planetary Energy Grid.  Now my income is 110 credits/turn.  Morgan only needs 3 turns to complete the Nano Factory, so I doubt I'll get that.  I'll use my Artifacts to figure something else out.  Morgan and Lal actually do not have any tech advantage over me.  Zhakarov, on the other hand, has like 6 techs I don't have.  I beg for techs again and he... doesn't say anything, because we're in the middle of sunspots.  I think that happened a couple turns ago.

Good time to use chemical weapons on Yang, if I wanted to piss him off forever and fully commit myself to doing nothing else for a long time.  I worry that one of my "peaceful northern friends" will turn into an economic runaway meanwhile.  I may need to deal with them, so getting implacably bogged down with Yang is not a good strategy.  Also, previous experience has shown that if you start committing atrocities on a faction, you'd better finish the genocide before they get nukes.  Or else it's your own cities that are going to be gone.  A global flood can totally change your ability to completely wipe out an enemy, giving them room to breathe and get a nuke off.

I decide to send a ship with a colonist to the Manifold Nexus after all.

I start building a Skunkworks in my major port city.  I don't like waiting around for prototypes.

I infiltrate Cha Dawn.  They are the dead last faction, so unsurprisingly, they don't have any new tech.

Details Yang's nonsense

Yang's nonsense

Yang is held at bay.  Midnight approaches and I'm going to bed.

[bvanevery]

Details artifact time

artifact time

MY 2230.  Morgan completes the Nano Factory.  Zhakarov is going nuts on technology, but doesn't seem to have rapid ability to complete Secret Projects yet.  I pop an Artifact to try to get another Secret Project to work on.  I succeed, and it's one Zhakarov is working on.  He has 2 projects that have a lot of work done on them, and 1 that doesn't, so it's to my advantage to knock him out of projects as fast as I can.  However if I burn up Artifacts to do that, then I may not have enough techs to get enough Secret Projects to challenge him further.  I have 3 Artifacts remaining, and I research a tech 5 years from now.

I decide to crawl a mine on behalf of the city that's now building the Pholus Mutagen, at the risk of 15 eco-damage.  Other crawlers, I have them mine on behalf of my threatened city producing an Impact Needlejet, and my city producing a Skunkworks.  The latter is only working a forest as I haven't completed my 4th mine.  Driving a rail to my new peninsula city is more important right now.

[bvanevery]

Details my kinda ally

my kinda ally

MY 2232.  Zhakarov gifted me 2 Impact Penetrators!  That will definitely help my cause against Yang.  I've also claimed the Manifold Nexus, and I need something more than a Trance Scout to defend it from Cha Dawn.

I could finish the Pholus Mutagen this year by cashing supply crawlers, but I don't need to.  I'd rather keep them working the minerals.  I will be able to complete it with cash next turn.

I complete a 4th mine.  I start to shift my Skunkworks production to it, but it seems the threshold for eco-damage is 13 minerals.  I go back to working the forest, keeping my production at 11 minerals, and I assign the new mine to a different city.

[bvanevery]

Details the flooding begins

the flooding begins

MY 2233.  I hope this doesn't turn into some river shifting empire destroying region of death like last game.  I am finally starting to do well, and my patience for being environmentally kicked to the curb is quite limited.

Details defense dept idea of efficient spending

defense dept idea of efficient spending

Dammit Zhakarov, would it kill you to pay attention to my SUPPORT before dropping your entire air force on me?  Lost a plane to keep a Scout alive, sheesh.

With my new air force, I just murdered a stack of 9 probe teams.     I'm so comfortable now, my "threatened" city starts working on a Network Node.

Details I am thinking of you Yang

I am thinking of you Yang

I rush the Pholus Mutagen with cash.  I cash another Artifact to get a new tech.  I'll take the Empath Guild!  I switch to Thought Control as heck, it'll let me use police under a Democracy, and nobody in the game objects to this choice.  My research is currently Artifact driven anyways.  That said, I can't cash any more until I build more Network Nodes.

[bvanevery]

MY 2234.  I complete the Pholus Mutagen.  Maybe its eco-damage abating abilities don't set in immediately, because I sure don't notice any change in eco-damage thresholds this turn.  In one city, 11 minerals caused damage, 10 minerals didn't, so I switched my supply crawlers around accordingly.

Details the rout of Yang

the rout of Yang

Yang steps forward with 4 artillery pieces in 2 stacks.  One of them is on fungus, and I've got the fungal combat bonus from the Pholus Mutagen now.  Or at least I should.  Anyway I attack with my own artillery and fry one of his, so that's good.  A Gun Jet finishes off the other artillery piece in that stack.  Impact Needlejets take out the best defenders of the 2nd stack, then I open up on it with my 2nd artillery piece.  I destroy his artillery and wound a Speeder remaining in the stack.  My planes are beginning to physically push Yang back from whence he came.

[Induktio]

Details the flooding begins

the flooding begins

MY 2233.  I hope this doesn't turn into some river shifting empire destroying region of death like last game.  I am finally starting to do well, and my patience for being environmentally kicked to the curb is quite limited.

What kind of global warming setting are you playing these games with? Inevitably these games tend to have lots of sea level rise unless the climate effects are mitigated somehow. I suppose one could set the global warming variable to 1/2 but I'm not sure if that is enough to make a difference in long games. That might need more testing.

Also, what kind of labs output or population do these AI empires have? The northern factions look pretty large. What is their level of development in general?

[bvanevery]

Brain dump on AI faction status coming after this post.

Details a patch of sun obscures your face

a patch of sun obscures your face

MY 2235.  Sunspots ended?  I don't remember getting the memo on that.  Well no Yang I'm not going to talk to you while I'm killing you.

He had the temerity to kill one of my armored probe team units by throwing his own probes at them over and over again.  It seems even an Elite defender behind a wall, will be taken down by enough attacks by Hardened offenders.  And again, other defensive probe teams of greater strength aren't utilized in the fighting.  What a ripoff.

Details oh stick this in your fuse box

oh stick this in your fuse box

Hey, begging Zhakarov for technology is still working really well!  That puts any thoughts of switching to Wealth out of my mind.  I don't want to mess up this gravy train.

I just realized that I probably acquired a Hovertank prototype a long time ago, from a predefined Fungicidal Slider Formers unit.  I can start making Hovertank Formers and I don't have to wait for the Skunkworks to complete.  These will be really useful for putting mines on rocky terrain.

I try begging Morgan for tech, but he's working on the Longevity Vaccine.

Details tempting offer

tempting offer

I don't like giving up the tech to my "friend" Lal, but in my mod, Orbital Spaceflight also gives Missile Launcher.  I didn't want so many things loaded up in 1 tech, but I didn't have any spare tech in the tree to make it separate.  Thematically it makes some sense, although in other versions of my mod I've had it available for Doctrine: Air Power.  Anyways, this is a reasonably good deal and will enable me to hurt Yang.

I also trade for his other techs without giving up the Empath Guild.  Pulse armor will be particularly useful for advancing on Yang.  In fact I think it's time to build a wall of ECM Impact Infantry and start advancing forwards!  With a fusion reactor they're cost efficient.

[bvanevery]

What kind of global warming setting are you playing these games with?

The default.  I'm playing on Transcend.  My understanding from the formula you talked about in another thread, is that I suffer a "5" for eco-damage whereas the AI factions only get a "3".  My observation in several games, is that I'm severely penalized and could not possibly make the plethora of Boreholes and Condensers that the AI factions produce.  I mean, I get penalized for having 12 or 13 minerals right now.  Granted I'm Capitalist with the Manifold Nexus, so -2 PLANET.

Inevitably these games tend to have lots of sea level rise unless the climate effects are mitigated somehow. I suppose one could set the global warming variable to 1/2 but I'm not sure if that is enough to make a difference in long games. That might need more testing.

If I had the ability to change those formula numbers, I would change the AI from "3" to "5" on Thinker and Transcend difficulty, same as a human player gets.  This would reflect the fact that your builder AI is now that good.  If you have retained any of the decision making code from the stock binary, I believe the problem would be self-solving at that point.  The AI would get fungal pops same as I do, and then the AI would start building climate mitigating facilities.

I saw this take place when suffering widespread flooding in Fission Armor mod.  The biggest faction that I thought was doing the most eco-damage, the Free Drones, actually wasn't.  He was Planned rather than Free Market and had +0 PLANET.  He had built a lot of Tree Farms and so forth.  A smaller faction, maybe the Morganites, was actually doing more eco-damage despite their size.  Fission Armor made advanced factories available very early, which is how all the planet flooding got under way.

Also, what kind of labs output or population do these AI empires have? The northern factions look pretty large. What is their level of development in general?

The University, Peacekeepers, and Morganites are all gigantic.  In my mod they are all Passive personalities, so that can explain the lack of wars.  That said, I stopped a war between the Morganites and the Peacekeepers, because I didn't want to get drawn into it.  Democratic gives +1 ECONOMY in my mod, so the Morganites and Peacekeepers don't have any reason to be enemies due to Politics.  However the Peacekeepers have +2 GROWTH, so their pop-booming choices easily result in non-Capitalist behavior, pissing Morgan off.  I bet they were Socialist at some point earlier, and now they're Green, presumably because they're happy with the number of size 16 cities they've got.

As of this turn, I've caught up with Lal on tech.  I even have C6 Homo Superior / Empath Guild which he doesn't.  Morgan has a little more than I do, B5 Bioengineering and D4 Cyberethics, which give similar benefits as the unmodded game.

Details Zhakarov's minerals

Zhakarov's minerals

Zhakarov on the other hand is a tech runaway.  My mod is actually set up to allow a Discover oriented faction to do that, with all sorts of labs being available earlier than in the unmodded game.  If you build labs upon labs, it can snowball.  And he's definitely been building some Boreholes, as this city sample illustrates.  Note that I get more eco-damage for having the temerity to produce 12 minerals.  And I have the Pholus Mutagen.  And he's straight Capitalist, -3 PLANET.  Huge advantage to him.

Zhakarov has Applied Relativity (gives Industrial Lab, my version of Fusion Lab), Advanced Military Algorithms (gives Hunter-Seeker), Pre-Sentient Algorithms (gives Nanohospital), Unified Field Theory (gives Corporate Lab, my version of Quantum Lab), Digital Sentience, Bio-Engineering, Cyberethics, and Eudaimonia.  His government is Democratic Socialist Knowledge Eudaimonic, which means he's got +4 GROWTH.  Any city with a Children's Creche is pop booming.  So far he has shown a lack of ability to finish his Secret Projects, but I don't expect that to last.

Surprisingly, looking at Zhakarov's expenditures, he has not built even a Research Hospital.  Doesn't need to?  None of those advanced labs actually matter to him.  His Borehole input must be that good.  He simply has 45 (!) Network Nodes.

[bvanevery]

MY 2236.  I research Advanced Military Algorithms on my own.  Zhakarov has been working on it but hasn't completed it.  He only needs 4 more turns.  I drop what I'm doing and rush it.  First I use up all supply crawlers that aren't working a mine.  That isn't enough so I take the rest of my turn, hoping maybe I pick up some energy from something.  Eventually I end up stripping all remaining fission supply crawlers, leaving me with just 1 fusion crawler.  I spend cash and have 169 credits left.  I begin the Empath Guild over again in another city.

Yang finally destroys a 2nd borehole.  The algorithm for prioritizing that is weird.  I wonder if it has to do with being unable to move forwards, due to my obstructing planes?  That may have been when the 1st borehole was destroyed as well.  Well by the time I'm in control of the area, I bet I have Advanced Ecological Engineering and it wouldn't be that difficult to make new boreholes anyways.

I deliberately don't use as many Impact Needlejets as I could, preferring instead to have a similar number of air units available every turn.  That way I can keep pushing Yang's units back towards his own land.

Why not beg Zhakarov for more tech?  Maybe he'll give me Knowledge, which I could do for pretty much no penalty and it would make him happy.  Awww, he doesn't want to speak with me.

Details Morganic maladaptivity

Morganic maladaptivity

MY 2238.  Seas to rise 266 meters.

Details where everything will get ruined

where everything will get ruined

Domai Dome is at 86 meters so I start building a Pressure Dome.  It's also sitting in the middle of a river system, so I predict this land is going to turn into a barren region of death.  At least it's only 1 city instead of 3 like last game, and it's not on my invasion route.

I gain a number of techs from the Planetary Datalinks.  I choose Knowledge, which lowers my POLICE to -1.  I almost never nerve staple anyone anyways.  I now have more tech than Morgan and Lal.  Zhakarov as usual is the runaway.  He doesn't give me a free tech, but he does trade E7 The Will To Power for C4 Single-Sided Surfaces.  The Dream Twister isn't even built yet.  That's been his pattern, he just doesn't care about preventing others from obtaining Secret Projects.  Maybe he has no real need to care.

I'm still in 5th place, ahead of the truly pathetic factions, and I still can't do substantial productivity without eco-damage.  And the global flooding has already begun.  I don't really know if this game is winnable.  It looks like Zhakarov will simply Transcend, and that I'll be so hassled with productivity, eco-damage, and flooding that I'll never be able to do anything about it.  But it is too early to pronounce final judgment.  I soldier on.

[Induktio]

If I had the ability to change those formula numbers, I would change the AI from "3" to "5" on Thinker and Transcend difficulty, same as a human player gets.  This would reflect the fact that your builder AI is now that good.  If you have retained any of the decision making code from the stock binary, I believe the problem would be self-solving at that point.  The AI would get fungal pops same as I do, and then the AI would start building climate mitigating facilities.

I saw this take place when suffering widespread flooding in Fission Armor mod.  The biggest faction that I thought was doing the most eco-damage, the Free Drones, actually wasn't.  He was Planned rather than Free Market and had +0 PLANET.  He had built a lot of Tree Farms and so forth.  A smaller faction, maybe the Morganites, was actually doing more eco-damage despite their size.  Fission Armor made advanced factories available very early, which is how all the planet flooding got under way.

That wasn't the number I was talking about though. The setting I was referring to is in alphax.txt:

1, 1     ; Numerator/Denominator for frequency of global warming (1,2 would be "half" normal warming).

Adjusting that value is just one proposed solution if one doesn't like the sea level game mechanic. Modding the eco damage formula is not currently something that I'm looking at, I'm not even sure which functions exactly calculate that stuff.

[bvanevery]

I don't want to change my eco-damage.  I'm fine with how I have to play the game as is, same as I'm fine with the number of drones I get on Transcend.  If I give myself eco-damage as easy as the AI has got it, then the AI will still do its same supply crawler, Condenser, and Borehole ICS routine, totally stomping me with empires that have 45 cities in them.

I don't want to change everyone's eco-damage by some multiplier.  The AI's relative eco-damage is way too low compared to mine, and a global multiplier will preserve that unfair ratio.

I want to change the AI's eco-damage, because it's way too low for them.  I want us both to play the same hard game.  Since it's now got all these special smarts to cough out boreholes, well it should have to pay real costs for those boreholes.  Then we'll see how smart this algorithm really is.  Like it may not actually turn out to be the One True Way To Win The Game.  You can't very well have a rubbish 45 city, 45 Network Node ICS empire if that empire is underwater.

At least SMAC does seem to have some code in it to build facilities to reduce eco-damage.  Either Civ II: Test of Time, Call To Power II, Civ III, or Freeciv did not.  I can't remember which one it was, but if you left the AI to manage your city for you, it would pollute badly and destroy the planet.

[bvanevery]

Details boys! boys!

boys! boys!

MY 2240.  I am allied with both Zhakarov and Morgan.  I have no interest in trying to do something about a war between them, I'm fighting Yang.  Zhakarov is frankly the most likely one to win the game at this point.  I don't think it's even practical to get in a war with any of those northern people right now.  I will try to make them have peace.  I can't tell if that's in my best interest or not, but I really don't think it matters.  I've seen these big factions beating each other up in other games, and they never do anything decisive.  They just toss a few cities back and forth between them.

Details a grudging lender

a grudging lender

I'd rather spend my money on the Empath Guild, and I have a feeling the game may be over before he pays all that interest.  But he does give me cool stuff, and I don't want him sore over my rebuff of his war.  So I loan the money.  Then I ask him to call off the war.  He says Morgan has to agree, so I'll be chatting with him next.

Details Lal's comedic timing

Lal's comedic timing

Groan.  Not like I knew this when I loaned the money, nor do I think refusing the loan was a good idea.  I do have a head start, so I imagine I can still pull this off.

Details Zhakarov's junk

Zhakarov's junk

Once again Zhakarov hands over more than my city can support.  3 units vaporized from that.

Details 16 eco damage my worm

16 eco damage my worm

Tell me how 11 minerals do 16 eco-damage, in a size 6 city?  I just allocated those minerals.  I will have to reallocate them to some other city.  I want the AI to experience this nonsense, and to die properly from all the boreholes it makes.  If it can handle all the mindworms and floods that result, fine, it will have earned the right.  Otherwise it's just cheating.

Details the road to the Hive

the road to the Hive

I'm beginning to build a road and rail to the Hive.  His forces that were trying to march towards me, have mostly been blown away.  I don't know what kind of replacement power he has.  I've noticed the Thinker AI often does a very bad job of garrisoning, keeping only a bare minimum skeleton of defense for the country.  It could become a cakewalk once I make contact, but we shall see.

Details Lal's pile of minerals

Lal's pile of minerals

Good God, Lal only just started this turn and only needs 7 turns to complete, assuming no use of supply crawlers.  I would need 26 turns in the city I'm building it in.  I'm not even in the same league of production, due to the eco-damage constraint.  No I don't want to go through fungal pops and mindworms to raise the amount of eco-damage I can do, I want to fight Yang.  This is how eco-damage totally spams you, and not the AI.

My only hope is that the AI is typically not good at managing cash for Secret Projects.  I outright buy most of my Secret Projects all the time.  I have 559 credits and need 1108.  I could probably finish this now with supply crawlers and maybe even an Artifact, but I'd rather wait.  Lal hasn't finished his project yet.  Even another turn is that much more money I'll have, and that much less minerals I'll have to lose from my mines.

A problem I'm going to have invading Yang, is I don't really have any ground troops.  Only my air force is impressive.  I'm doing all I can to stay in Secret Project races.

Details this guy is a jerk

this guy is a jerk

Morgan calls off his stupid war.  I don't know what the guy's problem is.  Zhakarov is Capitalist.  Unless the game is lying, and it's really Zhakarov who started the war, over Morgan pursuing Wealth.

Let's beg Zhakarov for technology!  I forgot to do that before.  He blows me off.  Busy with the Manifold Harmonics.

[bvanevery]

Details Lal's outrageous minerals

Lal's outrageous minerals

MY 2241.  Good God.  38 minerals!  10 eco-damage!  Meanwhile, 13 minerals gives me 15 eco-damage.  Ok, granted, he's Green with +2 PLANET.  I'm Capitalist with the Manifold Nexus, so -2 PLANET.  It's still a crock though.  If I were to design this game from scratch, I'd make it so that a Thermal Borehole can never, ever be mitigated by going Green.  It's the futuristic equivalent of going on and on about "Clean Coal" today.  There's no such thing.  It's complete BS.

So I have to rush now.  Well, let's move everything else first, in case I get more cash somehow.  I don't.  It takes several supply crawlers but I get it done.  I've got 37 credits remaining.

I can't believe Lal just had the nerve to beg me for The Will To Power, when he was trying to build The Empath Guild right out from under me.  Research it yourself, dorkface.  Maybe I can still get the Dream Twister if I delay any offensive against Yang and keep cranking out fusion speeder supplies non-stop.  But this is getting old.

Zhakarov keeps on dumping units on my puny Manifold Nexus city.  I disbanded an Impact Needlejet to help build a Children's Creche.  I really need an "instantly get more minerals" facility.

[bvanevery]

MY 2242.  Dawn of Planet just sunk.  That's rich.  Pretty sad if you can't remember to put a bubble over your capitol.  My own Domai Dome is down to 35 meters, guess I'd better rush the last 3 turns of Pressure Dome.

Details you sank my mineralship!

you sank my mineralship!

There used to be a minerals special on this ocean shelf square.  Now it's an ocean square and the minerals are gone.

I begin the Dream Twister.

[bvanevery]

Details I'd like to twist something else of Lal's

I'd like to twist something else of Lal's

MY 2243.  Lal seems to be passing into "instant get everything" mode.  With 3 northern powers doing that sort of thing, I wonder how it will all end?  I wonder if this is what it's like to be a minor "ally" of the United States.

Details when 5 equals 1

when 5 equals 1

I'm guessing I get next turn to complete this, then that's it.  He's completing the Cloudbase Academy this turn.  He's actually got 2 copies of it.